Belgian Dark Strong Ale Westvleteren 12 Clone - Multiple Award Winner

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jtp137 said:
Try this. I have had problems with this yeast as well. I stick to wlp500. I think it crashes when it gets too high



Stuck fermentation



Create a new WLP530 stir-plate 3000ml starter. The large starter has be able to quickly ferment under adverse conditions so it has to be large. Oxygenate the starter before seeding with 1 vial WLP530, oxygenate it again at 8 hrs, and after high krausen has subsided oxygenate it a third time. Crash the starter to flocc. Take out of chill and pour off almost all of the starter beer and let the temp normalize to your primary temp. Pitch and stir in *very* gently. In 1-2 days a slow fermentation will resume. Monitor until you reach FG 1.012. Probably another week to 10 days. It worked :)
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What if I wash the yeast cake and make a starter from that? Dont have any more vials of WLP530.... would have to order more and that takes more time and money... which i am willing, but just curious about the yeast cake.
 
Generally speaking yeast is yeast, but I wouldn't pull the whole yeast cake. If you can harvest a fraction and make the starter from that it would be best. Optimally you should also pitch the starter at high krausen.
 
av8bdriver said:
What if I wash the yeast cake and make a starter from that? Dont have any more vials of WLP530.... would have to order more and that takes more time and money... which i am willing, but just curious about the yeast cake.
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For the Westy 12 clone to reach FG there are yeast quality issues that can not be substituted:

1) Create a minimum stir-plate starter of 3000ml that is initially charged with O2. Keep in mind that the monastery uses fresh Westmalle krausen only, (we also use fresh harvested krausen only). See pic below.

2) Avoid using trub or an old yeast cake assuming more is better or that yeast quality can be substituted for quantity. For this clone, yeast quality is the primary key to ale quality.

Westmalle Krausen.JPG
 
On that note, would you care to give a quick write up of your harvesting process? Or point me in the right direction if you've already done so elsewhere?

Thanks!
 
CSI said:
For the Westy 12 clone to reach FG there are yeast quality issues that can not be substituted:

1) Create a minimum stir-plate starter of 3000ml that is initially charged with O2. Keep in mind that the monastery uses fresh Westmalle krausen only, (we also use fresh harvested krausen only). See pic below.

2) Avoid using trub or an old yeast cake assuming more is better or that yeast quality can be substituted for quantity. For this clone, yeast quality is the primary key to ale quality.
Click to expand...

Thanks, CSI. So are you saying to only pour the top portion of your picture.. the foaming part? That's what I think krausen is.
 
av8bdriver said:
Thanks, CSI. So are you saying to only pour the top portion of your picture.. the foaming part? That's what I think krausen is.
Click to expand...

No, he would pitch his entire starter. The yeast used to make the starter is harvested from the high krausen of another full brew that he has going.
 
gotbags-10 said:
Is it crucial to use a yeast starter made from high krausen on another batch?
Click to expand...

If you can make a starter from a fresh vial thats fine. Not really adviseable to use yeast slurry from a previous batch though.
 
ruger988 said:
Not really adviseable to use yeast slurry from a previous batch though.
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You mean using a starter made from slurry, correct? Why exactly is that not advisable?

Although Westmalle has the capability to top crop, many, if not most, breweries (and homebrewers) repitch the yeast harvested from the bottom of the fermentation vessel. There is a rationale for harvesting the "middle" yeast from the bottom in that you preserve the flocculation properties across many generations. If the beer was made a week ago I would think the cake is still viable and healthy, although perhaps the stalled fermentation is an indicator of poor yeast health. Some have even discovered that the commonly used yeast slurry viability calculators grossly overestimate the rate at which yeast loses viability. Furthermore, according to the Yeast book yeast don't begin performing optimally in a particular brewery until they've been repitched several times.

Also to clarify, "krausen" is the foamy yeast on top, but "high krausen" describes a phase in the fermentation.
 
ruger988 said:
On that note, would you care to give a quick write up of your harvesting process? Or point me in the right direction if you've already done so elsewhere?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Yes, the krausen harvest process I've been meaning to post. On next harvest I'll get pics and process posted.
 
av8bdriver said:
Thanks, CSI. So are you saying to only pour the top portion of your picture.. the foaming part? That's what I think krausen is.
Click to expand...

What you're seeing in the pic is an all krausen harvest that has been flocced, (about 1 trillion cells). The top portion is only the yeast that would not flocc due to suspended air/O2. We flocc it to get a measurement on count. For packed, clean Westmalle it's 4.0 billion cells per ml.
 
ruger988 said:
No, he would pitch his entire starter. The yeast used to make the starter is harvested from the high krausen of another full brew that he has going.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's correct. This flask is a flocced capture. You can make some explosively active yeast starters from krausen capture. However, we pitch the krausen yeast directly.
 
CSI said:
For the Westy 12 clone to reach FG there are yeast quality issues that can not be substituted:

1) Create a minimum stir-plate starter of 3000ml that is initially charged with O2. Keep in mind that the monastery uses fresh Westmalle krausen only, (we also use fresh harvested krausen only). See pic below.

2) Avoid using trub or an old yeast cake assuming more is better or that yeast quality can be substituted for quantity. For this clone, yeast quality is the primary key to ale quality.
Click to expand...

OK... washed the yeast cake. Got a total of about 1/2 cup from the yeast cake. I notice that yall say to use a 3000ml starter. My flask is only 2000ml. I boiled 1.5 quarts of water and added 3oz (85 grams) of light dme for the starter base.
Cooled the wort and pitched the harvested yeast... for a total of about 1200ml right now. Sitting on stir plate now.
Do I need to make more wort and add to the solution? Thanks for all of the help...
 
av8bdriver said:
OK... washed the yeast cake. Got a total of about 1/2 cup from the yeast cake. I notice that yall say to use a 3000ml starter. My flask is only 2000ml. I boiled 1.5 quarts of water and added 3oz (85 grams) of light dme for the starter base.
Cooled the wort and pitched the harvested yeast... for a total of about 1200ml right now. Sitting on stir plate now.
Do I need to make more wort and add to the solution? Thanks for all of the help...
Click to expand...

When using slurry or yeast cake you may or may not have the ability to calc your count outcome. We're after a proximity to the Fix rate:

Count = (0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato)

Also, even washed slurry will have a percentage of dead cells and non-viable cells no matter how well it is washed so quality and quantity may still be questionable. Stalled ale problems usually trace back to yeast quantity & quality.

Lyces and histamines from decomposing yeast carcasses will emit byproducts that are not desirable. If you want to use yeast cake out of frugal use, you could consider creating a fermentation explosion and 'distill', (capture), the top-crop and get a yeast viable enough for a quad fermentation. Even doing this though, you will still not have a premium yeast. The cake should then be thrown away.
 
av8bdriver said:
OK... washed the yeast cake. Got a total of about 1/2 cup from the yeast cake. I notice that yall say to use a 3000ml starter. My flask is only 2000ml. I boiled 1.5 quarts of water and added 3oz (85 grams) of light dme for the starter base.
Cooled the wort and pitched the harvested yeast... for a total of about 1200ml right now. Sitting on stir plate now.
Do I need to make more wort and add to the solution? Thanks for all of the help...
Click to expand...

For a 10P starter wort I generally adopt the Jamil approach, (1g/10ml). You would need 120g of DME per 1200ml total volume. Feed the bugs :)
 
Ok... just wanted to update everyone. Finally got the 2 step starter pitched this morning. When I got home from work this evening, looked like fermentation has started nicely.... airlock was bubbling about 12-15 times/minute. Also put a heating pad on low underneath it. Fingers crossed! Thanks again everyone for all of the great advice.
 
I have to brew something belgian in the 1.070-1.090 range for a competition in mid march, do you think i can get away with less aging if i brew a weaker/diluted version of this, like 1.070 OG?
 
jtp137 said:
Try brewing the 8 http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/westvleteren_8_clone_-_041.pdf
Click to expand...

Thanks!
That looks really similar to what i have come up with except i have about 50% pale and 35% pilsner malt in there. Maybe i should switch their percentages around or bump up the pilsner even more? Since i don't know the original and i will depart from it anyways maybe the grain ratios won't matter that much for me. I am not shooting for a clone yet just something good belgian like @ 1.070
 
So just wanted to update yall on my attempt to fix my stalled Westy. Took a gravity reading this morning. Still at 1.020 :confused::confused:. fermented pretty good for the last 4-5 days. I am at a loss. So my next step is to order fresh yeast and make a large starter and try again.
 
I brewed this up last night, with quite a few variations due to lack of stock and access to supplies (went 500g vienna, 2kg pils and 5 pale, quite different hops and used golden sugar).

SG is around 1.095.

At 75 minutes I tossed the syrup boil down into the pot, by that stage I hadn't managed to get a complete boil down although it was getting very close. I started the boil down when I started the boil and wanted it to be in the pot for at least 15 minutes so it mixed in properly (hence stopping that part early).
Also, as can be expected from a 90 minute boil and a the boil down - I lost a lot of liquid. I haven't read all the comments on this thread so may have missed a similar comments.

i will let you know how it comes out
 
Likefully said:
I brewed this up last night, with quite a few variations due to lack of stock and access to supplies (went 500g vienna, 2kg pils and 5 pale, quite different hops and used golden sugar).

SG is around 1.095.

At 75 minutes I tossed the syrup boil down into the pot, by that stage I hadn't managed to get a complete boil down although it was getting very close. I started the boil down when I started the boil and wanted it to be in the pot for at least 15 minutes so it mixed in properly (hence stopping that part early).
Also, as can be expected from a 90 minute boil and a the boil down - I lost a lot of liquid. I haven't read all the comments on this thread so may have missed a similar comments.

i will let you know how it comes out
Click to expand...

Sounds good, but doubt its going to be very comparable to the 12 with all of those changes (especially the golden sugar) What kind of SRM is your brew?
 
ruger988 said:
Sounds good, but doubt its going to be very comparable to the 12 with all of those changes (especially the golden sugar) What kind of SRM is your brew?
Click to expand...

For sure, will be quite different, but i haven't seen a recipe elsewhere with the boil down technique.

Its SRM is about 15, nice colour, but would have liked it to be a bit darker.

I pitched a very old smack pack of WYeast Abbey Ale (from 2011...) on Tuesday and there are finally signs of fermentation this morning (Friday)!
 
Likefully said:
For sure, will be quite different, but i haven't seen a recipe elsewhere with the boil down technique.

Its SRM is about 15, nice colour, but would have liked it to be a bit darker.

I pitched a very old smack pack of WYeast Abbey Ale (from 2011...) on Tuesday and there are finally signs of fermentation this morning (Friday)!
Click to expand...

To clarify, did you pitch a single smack pack into a 19L batch at 1.095?
 
CSI said:
To clarify, did you pitch a single smack pack into a 19L batch at 1.095?
Click to expand...

Yes, along with yeast nutrient...but it was only about 17L so I should be fine:drunk:

I was given the smack pack in December and didn't actually see the date until after I had pitched.
 
Likefully said:
Yes, along with yeast nutrient...but it was only about 17L so I should be fine:drunk:

I was given the smack pack in December and didn't actually see the date until after I had pitched.
Click to expand...

I would estimate that pitch to be optimistically 60-70 billion cells into 4.5 gallons of high gravity wort, 1.095. This pitch is at about 25% of what you would have needed to bring it down to 1.012. It is best to start this ale using a large stir-plate starter, (3.2L), to try and create the Fix cell count. Then in subsequent brews dial back the count until you find the rate that is ideal. We pitch krausen at about 560 billion per 10 gallon batch of 1.090 wort.
 
CSI said:
I would estimate that pitch to be optimistically 60-70 billion cells into 4.5 gallons of high gravity wort, 1.095. This pitch is at about 25% of what you would have needed to bring it down to 1.012. It is best to start this ale using a large stir-plate starter, (3.2L), to try and create the Fix cell count. Then in subsequent brews dial back the count until you find the rate that is ideal. We pitch krausen at about 560 billion per 10 gallon batch of 1.090 wort.
Click to expand...

Thanks. How much nutrient do you use?

I will let you know how it goes. The fermentation is getting stronger. I am hoping that during the the 50 odd hours between pitching and when i could see signs of fermentation the yeast procreated and got ready to make an Abbey Ale!
 
What seems to be the best way to sparge for this beer? Batch sparge or fly? Also would you recommend a mash out ?
 
Likefully said:
Thanks. How much nutrient do you use?

I will let you know how it goes. The fermentation is getting stronger. I am hoping that during the the 50 odd hours between pitching and when i could see signs of fermentation the yeast procreated and got ready to make an Abbey Ale!
Click to expand...

We use 1 cap of Servomyces.

Just a word on yeast momentum. An notable under-pitch will generally not finish this ale to target FG due to rising ABV and declining oxygen/food/nutrient levels. Unfortunately, early yeast replication will not compensate for an under-pitch. A high ABV ale requires a lot of initial yeast momentum so the initial and correct pitch rate is essential :)
 
gotbags-10 said:
What seems to be the best way to sparge for this beer? Batch sparge or fly? Also would you recommend a mash out ?
Click to expand...

The monks use only first runnings. We have used both batch and fly sparging. Fly sparging tends to be more efficient but there is not a notable difference in the ale.
 
CSI said:
An noteable under-pitch will generally not finish this ale to target FG due to rising ABV and declining oxygen/food/nutrient levels. Unfortunately, early yeast replication will not compensate for an under-pitch. A high ABV ale requires a lot of initial yeast momentum so the initial and correct pitch rate is essential :)
Click to expand...

Thanks - so what can i do now? Or am i simply going to have a sweet beer?

Its been bubbling since friday and it looks to be slowing, a bit (wednesday), but my guess is it will keep going till Friday - I have made some 7% beers that fermented out in 3 days with not much more noticeable momentum (nice term).

BTW - I am in Africa, things work very differently here:D
 
Likefully said:
Thanks - so what can i do now? Or am i simply going to have a sweet beer?

Its been bubbling since friday and it looks to be slowing, a bit (wednesday), but my guess is it will keep going till Friday - I have made some 7% beers that fermented out in 3 days with not much more noticeable momentum (nice term).

BTW - I am in Africa, things work very differently here:D
Click to expand...

Waiting it out to see how far the initial pitch will bring the gravity down is a good next step. Once you're at a gravity stand-still you can create another larger stir-plate starter to finish the ale. You will need a very healthy 3000-3500ml re-pitch starter due to the hostile nature of oxygen-spent high ABV ale. However, we have recovered at least one batch using this method. It may take another 6 weeks or so but it does work.

Greetings to our brew friends in Capetown!
 
CSI said:
Waiting it out to see how far the initial pitch will bring the gravity down is a good next step. Once you're at a gravity stand-still you can create another larger stir-plate starter to finish the ale. You will need a very healthy 3000-3500ml re-pitch starter due to the hostile nature of oxygen-spent high ABV ale. However, we have recovered at least one batch using this method. It may take another 6 weeks or so but it does work.
Click to expand...

Ok, results are in. I use a refractometer for gravity readings (are you shaking your head again?)

So starting gravity was 1.095, brix of (just under) 23. Current Brix is 9.8. It gives me a Current Gravity of 1.004 and ABV of 11.6% .... does that sound possible given what i pitched? [I may not have hit the sparge temps, so could have had more fermentables]

I use the calculator on this site

Factoring in a margin of error on the first reading of 2 brix (temp etc), a starting brix of 21 would mean the current gravity is 1.009.

I know you have to adjust refractometer readings for different beers, but the difference is not that big.

Anyway, it won't be a clone, but it tastes pretty good! Now to cold crash which is a mission when the average temp is above 20C

CSI said:
Greetings to our brew friends in Capetown!
Click to expand...

fo sho!
 
Likefully said:
Ok, results are in. I use a refractometer for gravity readings (are you shaking your head again?)

So starting gravity was 1.095, brix of (just under) 23. Current Brix is 9.8. It gives me a Current Gravity of 1.004 and ABV of 11.6% .... does that sound possible given what i pitched? [I may not have hit the sparge temps, so could have had more fermentables]

I use the calculator on this site

Factoring in a margin of error on the first reading of 2 brix (temp etc), a starting brix of 21 would mean the current gravity is 1.009.

I know you have to adjust refractometer readings for different beers, but the difference is not that big.

Anyway, it won't be a clone, but it tastes pretty good! Now to cold crash which is a mission when the average temp is above 20C



fo sho!
Click to expand...

Yes, it does not seem possible based on the pragmatics of fermentation. To take 4.5 gallons (17L) of 1.095 wort down to 1.008 with 60-70 billion cells is contrary to known principles. If you are currently at 9.8 Brix at room temp your current gravity would be 1.0382.
 

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