The clone of the pre-2014 version of the Westy contains 7 different malts + syrups & boildown! You can certainly tell from the flavour going in to the fermenter.
Belgian Dark Strong Ale Westvleteren 12 Clone - Multiple Award Winner
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The clone of the pre-2014 version of the Westy contains 7 different malts + syrups & boildown! You can certainly tell from the flavour going in to the fermenter.
oceanic_brew
Well-Known Member
Haha wow. I'm definitely going to be using this brew as a benchmark design for my future Belgians.
Not that I'm against using a lot of different malts but my brewing experience is not at the point where I would be able to tell a pound of Munich from a 1/2 pound of caravienne.
I would like to make complex beers from simpler ingredient lists and then build out from there.
It's counter-intuitive, but simple recipes can have complex flavors, and vice-versa. I usually use a single malt recipe for this beer.
http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/westvleteren_12_clone_-_single_malt_040.pdf
catdaddy66
Well-Known Member
I agree. The first time I made this my friend, whose knowledge and opinion I greatly respect, told me that a more complex grain bill was what would give all the complexity. We used that recipe (#2) and it was awesome. Then I used #1 and was also phenomenal!
Six of one and a half dozen of another...
I've tried different versions of the Westy 12 clone, and they are all worked out nicely. It comes down to individual preference and execution.
oceanic_brew
Well-Known Member
So life got in the way a bit during the process of brewing this. I won't get into it but I haven't been 100% lately.
I didn't get the color I wanted to achieve since I couldn't source dark enough sugar, didn't get dark enough on the boil down. Not really a big deal.
I could have used a 2 hr boil, ended up with extra volume and as a result only hit about 1.076
I ended up having to pitch about 3L of starter wort in along with the brew. For some reason I didn't plan ahead and have any of my stainless fermentation vessels ready so I racked to a carboy and then laughed at myself since there was basically no head space.
I then had to rack back to a plastic bucket.
I rigged up a sanitary device to catch the yeast and away I went. I normally never check gravity anymore until before kegging but since the lid was off I was happy to test and see it down to 1.010 after 4 days.
I decided to reintroduce the blown out yeast but first I mixed it with another pound of Dark Belgian candi syrup and some yeast nutrient.
Well... about 12 hrs from that it was spewing yeast straight out of the s-type airlock. Had to remove the lid and use a new one. Hopefully didn't contaminate.
It's actually insane how good the hydro sample tasted. Wow!
I didn't get the color I wanted to achieve since I couldn't source dark enough sugar, didn't get dark enough on the boil down. Not really a big deal.
I could have used a 2 hr boil, ended up with extra volume and as a result only hit about 1.076
I ended up having to pitch about 3L of starter wort in along with the brew. For some reason I didn't plan ahead and have any of my stainless fermentation vessels ready so I racked to a carboy and then laughed at myself since there was basically no head space.
I then had to rack back to a plastic bucket.
I rigged up a sanitary device to catch the yeast and away I went. I normally never check gravity anymore until before kegging but since the lid was off I was happy to test and see it down to 1.010 after 4 days.
I decided to reintroduce the blown out yeast but first I mixed it with another pound of Dark Belgian candi syrup and some yeast nutrient.
Well... about 12 hrs from that it was spewing yeast straight out of the s-type airlock. Had to remove the lid and use a new one. Hopefully didn't contaminate.
It's actually insane how good the hydro sample tasted. Wow!
Hope it all comes out great! Some(not all) of my best beers have had major "Oh S***" moments. Footnote, not all of those moments have made great beer either...
I've been watching the tread for a year or so
This is on my list for later in the fall as a parti-gyle(ask me about my YUGE mash tun)
Never had the opportunity to partake the original but have thoroughly enjoyed several Rocheforts
Is this comparable?
I've heard people try parti-gyle with this beer before with varying success. There just isn't much sugars left in the grain after the sparge in this recipe. But let us know how it goes for you if you try
Closest beer to this you might be able to get hold of easily is the ABT12. The brewers of the ABT12 used to brew Westvleteren 12 until the trappist guidelines meant they had to bring it in house. This has lead many to speculate they're born out of the same beer. Some misinterpret it as them being the same beer. They're not. The Westy is drier. That said having tasted the sample from the pre-2014 recipe last night, that's a lot closer to a refined ABT12 that the current recipe. The current recipe really showcases the yeast, syrup, and technique. The pre-2014 is a showcase for EVERYTHING! Waaaay more malt character. I can see why people might have struggled to tell the difference between the pre-2014 recipe and the ABT12 but not the current recipe. Anyway. Bit of a ramble there. This beer really is on its own. I don't know of any other beer on the market that I would specifically say is like it. The slightly odd syrup adjuncts, the strict yeast schedule, and the long ageing process all lead to a very special beer unlike most out there.
I've heard people try parti-gyle with this beer before with varying success. There just isn't much sugars left in the grain after the sparge in this recipe. But let us know how it goes for you if you try
Closest beer to this you might be able to get hold of easily is the ABT12. The brewers of the ABT12 used to brew Westvleteren 12 until the trappist guidelines meant they had to bring it in house. This has lead many to speculate they're born out of the same beer. Some misinterpret it as them being the same beer. They're not. The Westy is drier. That said having tasted the sample from the pre-2014 recipe last night, that's a lot closer to a refined ABT12 that the current recipe. The current recipe really showcases the yeast, syrup, and technique. The pre-2014 is a showcase for EVERYTHING! Waaaay more malt character. I can see why people might have struggled to tell the difference between the pre-2014 recipe and the ABT12 but not the current recipe. Anyway. Bit of a ramble there. This beer really is on its own. I don't know of any other beer on the market that I would specifically say is like it. The slightly odd syrup adjuncts, the strict yeast schedule, and the long ageing process all lead to a very special beer unlike most out there.
I can get st bernardus here in TN so I'll definitely pick one up. Thanks for the info.
In regards to the gyle, I'll do a full volume mash for the westy, then do one huge batch sparge for the second. I may add first runnings off the sparge if gravity comes up short, then just add boil time as needed. I've acquired everything needed except the yeast which I'll probably have to order by mail so I'll wait until it is a bit cooler weather to do so.
I've done several successful gyle brew days off of big brews before, so I don't think it will be much issue. The joys of having a 37g mash tun
I've got some saphir hops I've been wanting to play with. May be a good opportunity.
Got just about everything ready to go for this
Gonna have to sub northern brewer for the bittering addition.
Also, need a sub for styrian goldings. The last LHBS in Nashville had neither SG or brewers gold. Would Willamette be okay?
I think I have some ekg as well?
Thanks in advance
Gonna have to sub northern brewer for the bittering addition.
Also, need a sub for styrian goldings. The last LHBS in Nashville had neither SG or brewers gold. Would Willamette be okay?
I think I have some ekg as well?
Thanks in advance
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Any chance they have celeia? Virtually same thing as styrian goldings
Hallertau works well. Probably any noble hops, although I haven't used all of them.
They did, but I didn't grab any
Cool
I'll probably just roll with what I have then. Or maybe split the hallertau and williamette between the flavor and aroma additions
It's not like the hops are playing a huge role here.
Another question.
What is the target carbonation on this?
3/3.5?
I don't have 10g of heavy bottles unless I put it all in 1l ezcaps.
It seems 3 is the max that is recommended for standard longnecks. Would 3 be acceptable?
I plan to bulk age/cold condition in two purged kegs(closed loop transfer) with a bit of priming sugar and cbc1. Just enough for O2 scrubbing. Then bottle with the blichmann gun into bottles with carb drops shaken in CBC.
I figure the initial priming amount will depend on target volume minus carb drop contribution. Should provide the O2 scrubbing in the keg and hopefully just enough foam in the bottles to push out extra O2 there.
Anyone see issue with this method?
Sorry if I didn't explain it clearly. It makes sense in my head.
What is the target carbonation on this?
3/3.5?
I don't have 10g of heavy bottles unless I put it all in 1l ezcaps.
It seems 3 is the max that is recommended for standard longnecks. Would 3 be acceptable?
I plan to bulk age/cold condition in two purged kegs(closed loop transfer) with a bit of priming sugar and cbc1. Just enough for O2 scrubbing. Then bottle with the blichmann gun into bottles with carb drops shaken in CBC.
I figure the initial priming amount will depend on target volume minus carb drop contribution. Should provide the O2 scrubbing in the keg and hopefully just enough foam in the bottles to push out extra O2 there.
Anyone see issue with this method?
Sorry if I didn't explain it clearly. It makes sense in my head.
You might find the round-up of the pre-cursor to this thread at the top of page 3 helpful. Lots of info on bottling including details on re-pitching etc.
I've never bulk aged the way you described, but to answer the carbonation question, 3 volumes is not too much for standard bottles or for this recipe, but probably slightly more than a Westy 12. I've carbonated from 2.8 all the way to 3.5 (in Belgian bottles), but usually about 3 volumes.
One quart doesn't sound like a lot (was that a 5 gallon batch?). Here's a good discussion about a similar incident:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=482235
Oldskewl
Well-Known Member
I had this happen on one of my early batches of brew. It turned out fine. Not much you can do at this point but wait and see.
Anyone have a recommendation for a starter beer for the yeast?
I'm thinking just 2 row, simple hop bill and mid-upper 60s fermentation. I have some saphir I need to use. Would this yeast play well with American fruity hops?
I plan on brewing 11g of W12 so a large cell count is needed.
I'm thinking just 2 row, simple hop bill and mid-upper 60s fermentation. I have some saphir I need to use. Would this yeast play well with American fruity hops?
I plan on brewing 11g of W12 so a large cell count is needed.
jtp137
Well-Known Member
If you can top crop the yeast that would be ideal, but if you want to nail this clone you have to get the pitch count right. I think if you would rack the W12 clone onto a full yeast cake you wouldn't get the right ester character
I agree that top cropping is the best option if you are set up for that. But I wouldn't be against making a small batch of low gravity beer and using that yeast as long as it isn't a crazy over-pitch.
This is the perfect top-cropping yeast, and you know you are getting the most viable yeast by that method.
Thanks for the feedback
Would a 5-6g batch of 1.045 beer produce an over pitch for 11g? Also, I was hoping to harvest some additional yeast. So it wouldn't be an entire cake.
Maybe I missed it somewhere. Is the recommended pitch rate lower than an average high gravity beer(for ester production)?
I thought that I remembered a recommendation to pitch at a higher rate, then reintroduce krausened yeast once past peak fermentation but I could totally have that mixed up.
Would a 5-6g batch of 1.045 beer produce an over pitch for 11g? Also, I was hoping to harvest some additional yeast. So it wouldn't be an entire cake.
Maybe I missed it somewhere. Is the recommended pitch rate lower than an average high gravity beer(for ester production)?
I thought that I remembered a recommendation to pitch at a higher rate, then reintroduce krausened yeast once past peak fermentation but I could totally have that mixed up.
The recommended pitch rate is a *slight* under-pitch to very slightly stress the yeast to get the right profile. But too much under/over can cause the yeast to stall out before its finished. From what I understand from previous posts, pitch rate is extremely important in this beer. Check out the Yeast Pitching Rates help doc on the CSI website. It has a worked example for the Westvleteren 12 clone at the bottom http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/pitching_rates_-_rev_1.14.pdf (PDF warning).
The re-pitch of Krausened yeast isn't quite right. There's a recommendation to use krausened yeast for re-pitching when bottling. But this requires having multiple batches going so you can harvest from one to pitch immediately to the other when bottling. I found I couldn't even build up a starter from yeast I stored in the fridge from the same batch for bottling. The schedule is just so long and my storage techniques so primitive that there just wasn't enough viable cells to build a healthy starter. There is also a need to return any cells you loose out of your blow off to the fermentor as soon as you can so you have enough cells to get the beer down to final gravity.
If you want to re-use yeast from another ferment, CSI has stated on here that they normally measure WLP530 as ~4bl cells per packed ml of yeast. See this post https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6847699&postcount=380
The re-pitch of Krausened yeast isn't quite right. There's a recommendation to use krausened yeast for re-pitching when bottling. But this requires having multiple batches going so you can harvest from one to pitch immediately to the other when bottling. I found I couldn't even build up a starter from yeast I stored in the fridge from the same batch for bottling. The schedule is just so long and my storage techniques so primitive that there just wasn't enough viable cells to build a healthy starter. There is also a need to return any cells you loose out of your blow off to the fermentor as soon as you can so you have enough cells to get the beer down to final gravity.
If you want to re-use yeast from another ferment, CSI has stated on here that they normally measure WLP530 as ~4bl cells per packed ml of yeast. See this post https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6847699&postcount=380
Great info
thanks j616s!
Previous post deleted
Edit:
I missed the post linked above from CSI. Thanks again. I think I missed a decimal point in my calculations above. But something else is off. That's what I get for doing napkin math before breakfast. Gonna revisit with a repitching calculator.
It reads:
We flocc the yeast down to a packed sediment in a smaller E.Flask. Westmalle measures very close to 4.0 billion cells per *packed* ml. 60-65 ml of packed Westmalle is enough for a 5 gallon fermentation of 1.090 wort, (some say 4.5 billion/ml). Measuring krausen slurry by volume is not consistent enough for an accurate count, (likely due to the inconsistency of spent carry-over beer with the new cells in the krausen). Outside of using a hemocytometer, measuring packed yeast by ml is a reliable means to get a close count.
thanks j616s!
Previous post deleted
Edit:
I missed the post linked above from CSI. Thanks again. I think I missed a decimal point in my calculations above. But something else is off. That's what I get for doing napkin math before breakfast. Gonna revisit with a repitching calculator.
It reads:
We flocc the yeast down to a packed sediment in a smaller E.Flask. Westmalle measures very close to 4.0 billion cells per *packed* ml. 60-65 ml of packed Westmalle is enough for a 5 gallon fermentation of 1.090 wort, (some say 4.5 billion/ml). Measuring krausen slurry by volume is not consistent enough for an accurate count, (likely due to the inconsistency of spent carry-over beer with the new cells in the krausen). Outside of using a hemocytometer, measuring packed yeast by ml is a reliable means to get a close count.
jtp137
Well-Known Member
When you guys make this clone do you follow CSI fermentation schedule? Do you do the slow ramp and begin to crash 1 point before terminal gravity. I am curious because everything I read on fermentation says to let it finish when it wants to finish this seems like you are crashing to get it to finish at a desired FG
You can let the yeast finish. The only reason CSI can get away with slowly ramping down the temperature just before fg is reached is because this yeast if very dependable, at least that's been my experience. Even that depends on proper pitch and fermentation temps. With proper conditions fg is reached in 6 or 7 days.
jtp137
Well-Known Member
I am going to try this clone again the last couple times I tried to make it I could not get it down past 1.015. The only think I didnt do is add the servomyces. I have the wyeast nutrient also has zinc I am going to try that. Might also try mashing a little lower or adding the sugar during fermentation.
You didn't mention if you are aerating with pure oxygen. That helps. Also, you may want to let the temperature rise a little sooner. After the first couple of days I let the wort go to 80 (give or take a couple of degrees). CSI advises letting it rise evenly but I don't try to hold it back for long.
jtp137
Well-Known Member
catdaddy66
Well-Known Member
Just bottled my 3rd batch of this recipe. It had a bit drier finish due to the FG of 1.009 (OG was 1.090), coming out to 11% abv. Got 51 12oz servings
It will be tough to keep this bottled til next spring! But I may use it to celebrate my 52nd birthday on March 21, 2018!
It will be tough to keep this bottled til next spring! But I may use it to celebrate my 52nd birthday on March 21, 2018!
Oldskewl
Well-Known Member
View attachment IMG_1657.jpg
Wow! I cracked a bottle last night at 6 months. This beer got amazing over the last 2 months. The plum aroma and flavor is more pronounced. Starting get some cherry too. A bit overcarbed but as long as you pour quickly it's all good.
Wow! I cracked a bottle last night at 6 months. This beer got amazing over the last 2 months. The plum aroma and flavor is more pronounced. Starting get some cherry too. A bit overcarbed but as long as you pour quickly it's all good.
The flavour profile will be different, probably with more banana esters, and less spicy phenols. I think the wlp500/wy1214 may have a little less attenuation. You may also want to shoot for a slightly lower OG, since the wlp500 probably isn't as tolerant to high abv.
I have recently brewed a beer with wlp500 and d180 that fermented out from 1.086 to 1.016. It tasted really nice at bottling, but I will try to keep myself from opening a bottle for several more months.
If you want some security, you could pitch both. I have considered doing so, but I'm going to try just 3787 first.
Stage 1 starter just finished. Was a 6 month old pack, so I'm going to do a second stage, then a gyle to step up after harvesting off of this one.
I do have a wy1214(500) on standby. If I gyle 11g, I may split batch a 3787(530) and a 3787/1214 combo
If I do so, I will report back. If I go w a blend, I'll add an active starter on of 1214 on day 3 or so.
Also, going by available examples, I get a lot more dark fruit/ plum/ etc from beer w 3787. 1214 seems way lighter with cherry, white zin, and a tad more funk/Earth to me.
I imagine they would be very different beers apart.
At this point, I'm more inclined to try the 1214(500) in a fruity Belgian IPA.
NarrowsBrewCo
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Wow this thread is incredible as I'm looking to learn all I can before trying to brew a solid belgian quad. I was curious in regards the original recipe on one point and was hoping for some clarification:
What is the point of the boil down of a gallon of the wort to a thick syrup then re-introducing it in the boil? Is that an option instead of using the belgian candy sugar? I'm just trying understand the process the best I can, any clarification would be appreciated. Thanks!
What is the point of the boil down of a gallon of the wort to a thick syrup then re-introducing it in the boil? Is that an option instead of using the belgian candy sugar? I'm just trying understand the process the best I can, any clarification would be appreciated. Thanks!
The boil down is optional. It was in Saq's recipe and CSI kept it here, but later stopped doing it. Theoretically it will add some extra flavor, but it is a lot of extra work. I've done it both ways and have found very little difference between the two recipes, probably because the D-180 gives so much of the essential flavors to the beer.
NarrowsBrewCo
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boland
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I've bottled this one about 4 weeks ago, and had one last week, and it already tastes awesome!!
Only brewed about 6L as the candy sirup is very expensive here.
I can hardly wait to crack open another one. Should I wait to let it age more? What's the recommended bottle time?
Only brewed about 6L as the candy sirup is very expensive here.
I can hardly wait to crack open another one. Should I wait to let it age more? What's the recommended bottle time?
