Water chemistry calculator

[MattGuk]

Hi all, anybody know of a calculator that will automatically suggest either what styles I can brew once I input my water profile, or that can automatically suggest what salts and amounts I need to add based on my inputs?
I really dont know much about water chemistry so I don't know what I need to add when looking at some of the calculators out there.
Essentially I need something to do the work for me lol.

Cheers

 

[Yooper]

There are a couple- BUT I wouldn't use them. Here's why- they can come up with the numbers for you- but they may have you add chalk (which you shouldn't use in 99% of cases) to get the bicarbonate and calcium but then add acid to lower the pH. Since chalk doesn't dissolve properly without extraneous measures and you really shouldn't add alkalinity unless you absolutely need it, the calculators that do this for you aren't really helping you at all.

There really isn't a target for bicarbonate, but most water supplies have various amounts. So that "target profile" isn't even a doable target in many cases.

It's not hard to do a little reading on water or ask here on the forum for some advice. That would be sure to give you better results than trying to hit some sort of calculated target that may not even be achievable.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Do you have a water report? What water are you starting with?

 

[MattGuk]

Thanks for the replies, I will attach a copy of the most recent water report.
I recently brewed up a hoppy pale ale, took a hydro reading today after 4 days fermentation and it tasted like salt.
Now I know it's nowhere near ready but I wonder if my water chemistry won't allow for me to make hoppy ales.

 

[Jim R]

I really dont know much about water chemistry so I don't know what I need to add when looking at some of the calculators out there.

It is worth taking the time to educate yourself on water chemistry and water adjustments if you are going to do this right. It isn't very complicated. I think I spent 2-3 hours or so reading and taking notes on everything I could find online from John Palmer as well as in his How To Brew book and I think I have a very good grasp of how to work with water. Start with his multiple youtube videos. It is worth the effort. The calculators then do the calculations for you. They don't replace education though.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Your relevant numbers from that report are:
Chloride: 38ppm
Sulphate: 70ppm
Alkalinity as CaCO3: 155ppm
Magnesium: 5ppm

Sodium isn't given but isn't normally too important (unless there's a source making it very high - like salting of roads or a water softener).

Calcium also isn't given and is important but can be calculated. Magnesium is 5ppm, which is roughly 20ppm hardness as CaCO3. Total hardness as CaCO3 is 242, so Ca hardness must be about 220ppm. That's gives about 50ppm Ca.

Your water's not bad, but does have some alkalinity that needs to be accounted for.
As is, you could comfortably dark beers that also have a decent dose of caramel malts, like porters, milds and brown ales. It'd also work OK for stouts and ambers.

Adding about a gram of Calcium chloride per gallon of water may be beneficial for most ales, to get your Calcium up to about 120ppm (which can help with yeast clearing). That also adds 127ppm of chloride (giving a rounder/fuller feel). If you prefer higher sulfate (dryer, accentuates hop bitterness), use some/all gypsum instead of Calcium chloride.

For lighter coloured beers, you should think about adding acid to remove some of the alkalinity to get a suitable mash pH. Most brewers prefer to use water calculators to do this.

 

[MattGuk]

Calcium also isn't given and is important but can be calculated. Magnesium is 5ppm, which is roughly 20ppm hardness as CaCO3. Total hardness as CaCO3 is 242, so Ca hardness must be about 220ppm. That's gives about 50ppm Ca

Thanks for all of your info, if you don't mind me asking, how did you work this out? I am struggling with this part haha.
I made a hoppy blonde this past week and tasted the sample earlier and it just tasted like salt, even though the hops were detectable.
Could my water possibly account for the salty flavor? I also brewed a cream ale with the exact same tap water and that is brilliant, crisp, no off flavours that I can detect and no probs with clarity.

Thanks

 

[fun4stuff]

Brewfather app calculates minerals to add for you. It's the best mobil app and most user friendly. I used bru'n water for years. Brewfather gets you the same results 10x faster, tells you exactly what to add, and you don't feel like you have to double check a 100 excel cells to make sure you didn't miss something.

In brew father you just ha e to make sure you turn off chalk (caco3), slaked lime, baking soda. As someone else said, i try to never add these.

In the app you will choose your source water (save a profile), choose a target profile, then click auto and it tells you what to add. Next you target a mash ph (between 5.2 and 5.6). While this technically style dependent, i usually shoot for the middle (5.4). So you change the amount of ml of acid (lactic acid is best) to add until your predicted mash ph matches what you want. Maybe there is a youtube video on it?

 

[MattGuk]

Brewfather app calculates minerals to add for you. It's the best mobil app and most user friendly. I used bru'n water for years. Brewfather gets you the same results 10x faster, tells you exactly what to add, and you don't feel like you have to double check a 100 excel cells to make sure you didn't miss something.

In brew father you just ha e to make sure you turn off chalk (caco3), slaked lime, baking soda. As someone else said, i try to never add these.

In the app you will choose your source water (save a profile), choose a target profile, then click auto and it tells you what to add. Next you target a mash ph (between 5.2 and 5.6). While this technically style dependent, i usually shoot for the middle (5.4). So you change the amount of ml of acid (lactic acid is best) to add until your predicted mash ph matches what you want. Maybe there is a youtube video on it?

Thanks for this tip, I have just started using brew father app and never knew about this.
I think the app is great for recipes and I always seem to hit the target that it calculates unlike brewers friend.

Cheers

 

[MattGuk]

The app does ask what my Bicarbonate is as Hco3 but I am not sure about this as my water report doesn't state it specifically.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Thanks for all of your info, if you don't mind me asking, how did you work this out? I am struggling with this part haha.

Ok, can do, but the chemistry can be confusing if you're not used to it.

Magnesium has an atomic mass of about 24.3 and a 2+ charge, so an equivalent mass of 12.15 (24.3/2).
Calcium has an atomic mass of about 40 and a 2+ charge, so an equivalent mass of 20.
Calcium carbonate has an atomic mass of about 100 and the carbonate component has a 2- charge, so an equivalent mass of 50.
To get Mg hardness as CaCO3, you first work out it's concentration in mEq/L by dividing it's concentration in mg/L (or ppm; they're the same) by it's equivalent mass. So Mg (mEq/L) = 5/12.1. This then gets multiplied by the equivalent mass of Calcium carbonate. So, Mg (hardness as CaCO3 = 5/12.1x50 = 20.66. Close enough to 20 for our purposes.
Total hardness as CaCO3 is a combination of Calcium and Magnesium hardness as CaCO3. Total hardness is listed as 242ppm, so Calcium hardness must be about 242-20 = 222ppm, which is close enough to 220ppm to make things easier (again, I'm rounding as all numbers are estimates anyway). To get Calcium (mg/L) you do the reverse of what we did with Magnesium: divide by the equivalent mass of Calcium carbonate then multiply by the equivalent mass of Calcium. So, Ca (mg/L) = 220/50 x 20 = 88.

So your water actually has about 88ppm (or mg/L) Calcium! My mistake with the Calcium calculation in the first post was twofold: firstly, multiplying by 12.1 (for Magnesium) instead of 20 (for Calcium); secondly, trying to do this at 1.30 in the morning after several beers!

With 88ppm Calcium, you don't need to add much more for most ales, and might even consider cutting your water with RO for some pale lagers.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

The app does ask what my Bicarbonate is as Hco3 but I am not sure about this as my water report doesn't state it specifically.

To get bicarbonate from Alkalinity as CaCO3, the process is similar to above. Divide by 50 then multiply by 61.
155/50x61 = 189

 

[MattGuk]

Thanks so much for your help, I think I will make a note of your calculations because there is NOOOO way I will remember that lol

 

[HopsAreGood]

I use this one:

https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/
There may be others with more bells and whistles but for my needs this has been perfect.

 

[marceloforpresident]

Brewfather app calculates minerals to add for you. It's the best mobil app and most user friendly. I used bru'n water for years. Brewfather gets you the same results 10x faster, tells you exactly what to add, and you don't feel like you have to double check a 100 excel cells to make sure you didn't miss something.

In brew father you just ha e to make sure you turn off chalk (caco3), slaked lime, baking soda. As someone else said, i try to never add these.

In the app you will choose your source water (save a profile), choose a target profile, then click auto and it tells you what to add. Next you target a mash ph (between 5.2 and 5.6). While this technically style dependent, i usually shoot for the middle (5.4). So you change the amount of ml of acid (lactic acid is best) to add until your predicted mash ph matches what you want. Maybe there is a youtube video on it?

I'm really strugling with the "MASH ACIDIFICATION CALCULATOR" in Brewfather.
I always use Lactic acid 88% and have been using BrunWater sucessfully over the past few years.

in the first recipe that i made i see a huge discrepancy in the amount of lactic acid (3x more) necessary to get my pH around 5.3.
1.5ml on BrunWater
4.7ml on Brewfather.

it was so strange that i opened an issue for thomas to check it out:
https://gitlab.com/warpkode/public/brewfather/-/issues/837
on both softwares i used the same amount of water, same grist, same resource water and add the same amount of salts.

what makes it even more strange is that i didnt see anyone complaining about that.