Water advice

[paddyporter]

ive ingredients for a pilsner sitting in the cupboard and im hoping to brew it soon but before i do i want to get my water sorted. my options so far seem to be send some water off to murphys and get it tested and get advice tailored to my report. its only a moment in time though, still worth it for the advice maybe? is this something i can test myself and learn how to treat myself with the help of salifert alkalinity, magnesium and calcium tests.ive listed 3 there but which are worth getting and are these better utilized in conjunction with a murphys water report. my stouts are by far better than any light beers and pale ales tasted sour or like sulphur. i bought crs and gypsum and kind of guessed with additions and they have improved with those additions a lot

im leaning towards buying the kits and learning how to test and treat the water myself. is this better than the murphys route? i dont mind putting in the effort.

this is what i know from my water report and there seems to be little variation hco3- (240) cl- (24) na+ (14) so4-2 (42) theres nothing for calcium or magnesium.

if i buy the kits is it possible to make the correct adjustments and make a good pilsner or should i go the murphys route.

also there is a natural spring down the road with lovely tasting water its on top of the hill i live on and flows through a pine forestry the water tastes really nice and lots of people locally draw water from there because of the iron and magnesium content up on top of the hill whick thankfully i dont have to deal with, this might be worth testing too, what do you think?

 

[mabrungard]

You do have most of the report there, but the hardness ions (Ca and Mg) are not reported. Its impossible to estimate accurately, but the Calcium content could be up to 100 ppm based on a simple assumption of the other ions. Limerick is located on the western edge of the central Irish limestone plain and the water there is likely to be hard and alkaline.

Its not terrible water as long as the alkalinity is attended to. In the case of stout and porter brewing, the roasted grain provides some neutralization of the high alkalinity. For paler brews, an external acid addition is required.

The level of mineralization in that water do not make it ideal for pilsner brewing, but if you neutralize the alkalinity with an acid, it could work.

If you think that your water source is fairly constant, then getting the Murphys report is worthwhile. If your water source comes from a reservoir or river, it could easily alter its quality through the seasons. If the water is variable, I recommend keeping the Salifert kits on hand to check for the current hardness and alkalinity conditions.

Be aware that my English homebrewing forum friends are a bit pissed at Murphys at the moment due to several lapses in the accuracy of their testing and of their acid strength information. Hopefully, you will obtain accurate results. I do suggest that you test your water sample with the Salifert kits when you collect the sample for Murphys testing.

 

[paddyporter]

Thanks mabrungard I'm getting the salifert kits today and I'm going to test all three to see where I am.
Regarding the pilsner if I treat with crs to remove alkalinity will my chloride and sulphates be out of sync as I've read treating with crs has an effect on these minerals and the ratio need s to be right for a pilsner

 

[mabrungard]

It is less an issue with the ratio of SO4 and Cl, its more an issue with the total of those ions added to the water. More than likely, their content will be higher than desirable for the relatively delicate flavor of a pilsner. I recommend you try and obtain lactic acid to provide some of the alkalinity neutralization and avoid overdosing with SO4 and Cl.

 

[ajdelange]

this is what i know from my water report and there seems to be little variation hco3- (240) cl- (24) na+ (14) so4-2 (42) theres nothing for calcium or magnesium.

You have about 3.9 mVal bicarbonate, about .7 of chloride and 0.87 of sulfate for a total of 5.5 anion charge offset by 0.6 mVal of sodium. This leaves 5.5 - 0.6 = 3.9 mVal of hardness i.e about 190 ppm as CaCO3. We'll get back to that.

Regarding the pilsner if I treat with crs to remove alkalinity will my chloride and sulphates be out of sync as I've read treating with crs has an effect on these minerals and the ratio need s to be right for a pilsner

Although some pilsners are brewed with pretty minerally water the renowned Czech offerings and many of the German ones are brewed with pretty soft (low mineral content water). You need to get rid of your carbonate (temporary hardness). It would be nice to get rid of some of the permanent hardness too but that can practically speaking only be done by dilution with low mineral (RO) water.

Adding acids is not the best way to deal with carbonate hardness unless you are trying to increase the content of some anion. You have about 4 mVal of bicarb to get rid of. If you do that with CRS you will add about 2 mVal each of chloride (71 mg/L) and sulfate (96 mg/L) to your water which is already at the margin for sulfate in a Pilsner (that uses noble hops). The extra chloride might actually help as it improves body, perception of sweetness and roundness but I'd be a little uncomfortable advocating 71 plus the 24 you already have (total 95). That might work though so if you want to use acid hydrochloric would be the one to use (assuming that you can get it in food grade and know how to safely handle it) or perhaps a blend of hydrochloric and phosphoric - say half each on an equivalence basis. That would take chloride to 60 and the rest would be pretty flavor neutral phosphate.

A more appealing approach would be to decarbonate the water by heating it to the boil, letting the chalk precipitate and then decanting the clear water. In general you should be able to get alkalinity and hardness down to about 1 mVal (50 ppm) each but this should be verified with hardness and alkalinity tests which you are contemplating. You'd still need some acid for the malts though.

 

[paddyporter]

So I bought the tests and he only had alkalinity and magnesium in stock. I got 182 from the alkalinity and observed no color change from the magnesium which has me stumped

 

[paddyporter]

Okay so the mg test is out of date by a year I'll have to return it that probably is the reason. I forgot to mention that I also picked up 20 litres of RO water to use for the pilsner. Any idea what the ratio should be. I have crs and gypsum if additions need to be made alongside the ro water.
Is a five gallon batch and the recipe calls for mashing in 12.25litres then topping up after 60 minutes with 7.9 litres. Then sparging with 14.2 litres.
Is 20 litre enough? Should I be worried about the sparge water or is it only the mash that is most important.

 

[ajdelange]

So I bought the tests and he only had alkalinity and magnesium in stock. I got 182 from the alkalinity and observed no color change from the magnesium which has me stumped

That (3.64 mVal) is reasonably consistent with the number you posted for bicarbonate in the earlier post.

There are lots of ways to skin this cat but if the color does not change as the chelant is added that suggests that there was little or no magnesium present in the first place.

Okay so the mg test is out of date by a year I'll have to return it that probably is the reason. I forgot to mention that I also picked up 20 litres of RO water to use for the pilsner. Any idea what the ratio should be. I have crs and gypsum if additions need to be made alongside the ro water. Is a five gallon batch and the recipe calls for mashing in 12.25litres ...

The simplest and best way to get rid of alkalinity is to dilute it away. You have, per your alkalinity test, 3.64 mVal. A tenth of that (0.364) represents a nice number (18.2 ppm) so 1.225 L of your water with 9*1.225L RO water would be ideal. That would also knock your sulfate down to 4.2 ppm which is very desirable and your chloride down to 2.4 which you would want to supplement a bit.

2*1.225 L of your water with 8*1.225L RO represents a 4:1 dilution and would reduce everything to 20% so your alkalinity would be 0.728 mVal (36.4 ppm), your sulfate to 8.4 and your chloride to 4.8 which, again, you would want to supplement. I wouldn't want to go too much lower with the dilutions as I like the alkalinity to be well under 1 mVal. I'd prefer the 9:1 for that reason.

You will still need a little acid to get the mash pH into the right range but if you do the 9:1 or even 4:1 you should be able to do that with CRS w/o the sulfate getting out of hand.

...then topping up after 60 minutes with 7.9 litres. Then sparging with 14.2 litres
Is 20 litre enough? Should I be worried about the sparge water or is it only the mash that is most important.

If you do the 4:1 dilution it appears so. If you do 9:1 then you would probably need more. You can top off with straight RO and you would want to sparge with straight RO. The high alkalinity in your tap water will tend to pull sparge runoff pH high too fast.

 

[paddyporter]

I reckon I'm going to try the 9 to 1 dilution if I can. The trouble is the nearest source is 40 minute drive and I've no car so I'm relying on lifts and it doesn't look likely very soon. But there is a spring locally which isn't far from the top of the hill so I'm going to try that and test the alkalinity. Perhaps it will have low mineral content since it hasn't had much time to pick up minerals along the way. Maybe not also but it can't help to test it. I'm going to order some calcium chloride for future additions also
With a bit of luck this spring water will be suitable for brewing lighter beers I would have the best of both worlds then since my dark beers have been very good although could still be better. If it's not I'll go with the 4 to 1. But as per your advice with sparging with straight RO water I still wouldn't have enough RO or an I missing something? Bear with me AJ my maths is very poor and you and mabrungard help is greatly appreciated. Also what effect will no magnesium have on my brewing? Thanks again

 

[ajdelange]

If you do 9:1 you would need

9*1.225 = 11.025 L RO water to mash with
7.9 L to top up with
14.2 L to sparge with

Total RO requirement: 33.125 L

For 4:1 you would need only 1.225 L less. IOW if you decide to beat the alkalinity by dilution you will need about 35 L RO water. I usually ask, when the tap water percentage is so low "Why bother with it? Why not use all RO?" and that certainly is an option for you here though you would have to supplement with calcium chloride if you do that but you will have to supplement with calcium chloride even if you stick with some tap water at the level of dilution you need to kill the alkalinity.

Lack of magnesium should not be a problem for you. While it is an important enzyme co-factor malt contains quite a bit of it - certainly enough to keep your yeast happy.

Wer

 

[paddyporter]

So I reckon I'm going to use some bottled water that my friends on the Irish homebrew forum have been using with some success in brewing pilsner to add the extra 15 litres . I'll have to check the mineral content first but some of the guys are brewing good beer using it. I'll have to do my homework and find out if they a are treating the bottled water and figure out where i stand but it seems to be the best solution for now.

In future though I'm going to go the all RO route for very light beers and stock up on the various salts and acids needed no harm have a decent selection and another option I forgot about was acid malt which is often used in pilsner from what I'm reading.

Once you did the maths ajdelange I couldn't agree more with you on the "why bother" sentiment it seems like i can make a more accurate profile with RO and the right additions the cost saving is negligible

 

[paddyporter]

I did the salifert test on the spring water and there is next to zero alkalinity and zero magnesium present. The bottle water isn't available and I can't get more ro water would it be a bad idea to try the spring water along side the ro water and see what happens. I've brewed with it once before doing a stout and it came out sour or astringent

I was thinking that the reason for this might be the darker grains lacking a buffer to deal with the acidity.

I've no idea what the numbers are for calcium, sulphates, chloride or sodium so I imagine it's a big risk. A spoiled batch isn't the end of the world either in the name of science

 

[ajdelange]

It's likely the spring water is low mineral. A total hardness or calcium hardness test would confirm this.

The low alkalinity is a good thing. Lots of people think that if a beer has any color at all it needs appreciable alkalinity (you will find that stated in lots of books, articles, calculators, nomograms...) but it usually isn't so. It is, nevertheless, best to check on dark beers (or any beer, really) with a reliable pH meter measurement.

 

[paddyporter]

Thanks for the reply aj any idea what caused the stout to turn out astringent. Is it possible the water is to blame or more likely just an infection if was for my father and he let it sit in primary for two months . I reckon I'm gonna try it anyway especially for the pilsner since the low mineral content would be close enough to Pilsen and I might be lucky.

 

[ajdelange]

Afraid I don't. Could be a lot of things. And I'm just guessing about the water. It could, for example, be loaded with sodium sulfate. Not likely but we don't really know at this point.

 

[paddyporter]

Just going to have to see then thanks for all the help