Warm vs cold conditioning

[Nate88237]

Hi all,

I just finished a week of primary fermentation with a guinness like stout. I racked and bottled 5 gallons of beer into one gallon glass growlers.

I was thinking of conditioning one week at 70 degrees and 2 weeks in the fridge. Is one week of warm temperatures enough for a healthy carbonation or should I instead do 2 warm and 1 cold? Thanks guys!

 

[bdupree]

One week isn't enough, you really need at a minimum 3 weeks at about 70 degrees.

 

[Maddoghoek]

General consensus is minimum 3 weeks at 70. Bigger beers tend to take longer because the yeast are tired and/or close to their alcohol tolerance limit, depending on the strain.

 

[MDB]

Be careful with those growlers, I was going to carb in growlers til I read a number of posts explaining they are not rated for the pressure. Most I read who had done it say they never had a problem, but folks were pretty adamant they are potential bottle bombs.

 

[Nate88237]

Lol the last thing I want is 5 gallons of delicious beer coating the inside of my fridge. To cut down on the risk of explosion, should I do less warm temp. Conditioning?

 

[billl]

I know it's hard, but it's time to slow down. 1 week to bottle is a rush. 1 week to carbonation is another rush. Did you taste it while bottling?

As a general rule, you should never try to stop fermentation (including fermenting the priming sugar in the bottle) with a temperature drop. You want the yeast to finish the job 100% before moving to the next step.

For future batches, you might consider doing 4 growlers and some bottles. That way, you can sample a beer or 2 along the way without committing to opening a whole growler. That gives you the freedom to really see what your timeline is. eg taste at 1 week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks etc. In my experience, most of my brews take 2 weeks to carb up with room temps of about 73 degrees. Some have taken longer, but it is pretty rare for mine to be fully carbed in 1 week.

 

[Nate88237]

Before bottling I tried a small amount after I took the hydrometer reading. It tasted awesome, bitter with a hint of barley. It smelled very much like alcohol as well.

So do you think I could be safe conditioning for 2 weeks at 70-75 degrees and then chill in fridge for another week? Do I need a full week at cooler temp. Or could I do 2 and a half weeks @70 degrees and 2-3 days in fridge?

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

First off, bottle conditioning will take ~3 weeks or more at room temp. Another few days in the fridge after that will help dissolve the co2 into solution. But second, growlers aren't meant to hold the pressure of bottle conditioning, the caps are likely to pop (or worse) before the beer reaches the volumes of co2 you primed to.

I know it's hard, but it's time to slow down.

I think this statement couldn't be more true. Not trying to be a d!ck here, but not only should you slow down on this batch, but slow down.... take some time to read and research the hobby. Learn what does and doesn't work. Learn how yeast work. Learn how beer works, how it develops from sweet wort into delicious beer, etc.

 

[jbaysurfer]

What was your hydrometer reading? What was your OG?

I tend to agree, 1 week in primary is not enough. Not for a Guiness clone anway. I mostly do ales and IPAs (but have done a few other styles fwiw) but I haven't had a single batch that would've been ready to bottle at 1 week, and I routinely use fast fermenting yeast like san diego super or Pacman in my ales.

 

[Revvy]

You really have other things to be concerned about than whether to condition warm of cold (Though for ales there's really no such thing as "cold conditioning" below 55 the yeast goes to sleep so NO CONDITIONING gets done.)

Your biggest concern is the fact that you used growlers which AREN'T made to bottle condition in.

Carbonating beer and carbonated beer are not the same. A growler is meant for CARBONATED beer, like from a tap, not beer that is bottle conditioning.

This is direct from northern brewer website:
Standard issue 64 oz liquid libation transport vessel for the Civilian Brewing Division. This growler features a blank white space for adding in details on the beer inside and date bottled; using a dry-erase marker allows you to change it at any time. Takes a #6 stopper or a 38 mm screw cap. Pressure capable to 2.4 volumes of co2, not recommended for highly carbonated beers. Avoid bottle carbonating or priming with these growlers, as an unintentionally high level of carbonation could cause the glass to break.
Civilian Brewing Division Growler : Northern Brewer

I would hate to see you have a mess.

There's always a few who say they have no problem, but folks also have sex without condoms- Or still smoke, despite knowing its risks.

To carb a beer whether or not is is done naturally or with co2 you are forcing the gas into the solution. The pressure builds up, then there's a point where either the bottle fails or the co2, seeking the path of least resistance, forces itself into solution. You could call it a peak point, where there is a lot of pressure in the bottle, both already in solution and in the headspace trying to go into the solution, eventually it balances out and the beer is carbed.

Beer bottles, champagne bottles and kegs are rated with a higher psi/volume of co2 than wine bottles and growlers.

Already carbed and kegged beer is at a stable volume of co2 which is below the volume that growlers and winebottles are rated at. The FORCING of the co2 already happened. Why do you think kegs are made of metal and very very strong? To handle the pressure.

Our Buddy Rukus

This is because during carbing, the pressure can go above 30 or 40 PSI. I have a thread in the cider forum where I did several tests bottle carbing sweet hard cider. There is allot of data there if your interested.

I have a bottle with a pressure gauge on it. I recorded pressures during the carbing process. This is how the data was generated. I also recorded pressures while pasteurizing the cider.

I recently bottled some lager I made. I also filled my gauge bottle and my lower pressure gauge bottle pegged at 35 PSI as that was the limit of the gauge. It probably ended up in the 40's, but no way to tell for sure.


When we bottle condition beer, we are really simulating force carbing like the keg folks do. We cause a ferment by adding sugar. This creates a high pressure in the bottle. CO2 doesn't like to dissolve in a warm liquid. We then put some bottles in the fridge. The temperature of the liquid drops and the CO2 then begins to dissolve in the liquid.

It seems to take several days at fridge temperatures for the CO2 to fully saturate the liquid for a maximum saturation for that liquid temperature.

While the CO2 is moving into the liquid, the pressure slowly drops. I've monitored this process as well with the pressure gauge.

Pressures go way higher than folks think while bottle conditioning. In the following data, I carbed sweet hard cider and stopped the carbing and then pasteurized the cider when the bottle was at 22 PSI. My Lager went above 35 PSI. The data doesn't show the extremes the pressure rises with beer as I stopped the cider at 22 PSI, but it would have continued if i hadn't stopped it.

The gauge bottle has a nice side effect, it tells you when your bottles are conditioned as the pressure rise stops. I then throw them in the Fridge to cold condition for several days before I open. The gauge also tells you when they are carbed as the pressure drop stops. Pretty basic really.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/bottle-carbing-idea-final-data-review-205862/

No, when you bottle condition, the slight fermentation we cause by adding priming sugar just builds pressure up in the bottle. The pressures seem to go up into the 30's and 40's PSI from what I've seen.

The CO2 doesn't really move into the liquid until the temperature drops. Some CO2 may, but not the majority of it. CO2 doesn't dissolve into solution until a lower temperature.

This is really what we do when we force carb in a keg. We raise the pressure up when the beer is cold. The CO2 moves into the solution. The tap pressure is lowered for proper delivery and the beer either sets for cold aging, or it is consumed at that time.

What you would see with the pressure gauge (if you use one bigger than my first bottle had. Should use a 100 PSI Gauge) is that the pressure climbs over time and will level off.

Once the pressure levels off, that means all of the priming sugar has been used up by the yeast. Next, you put them into the fridge. You will see the pressure drop over several days. Eventually, it also will level off. I like to let them sit for a few more days after that, but really if the pressure stops dropping, all of the CO2 that can be dissolved at that temperature has been achieved.
.

I think it goes down to this.....is it worth playing Russian Roulette with your money and the time you spent bringing your brew along from grain to bottling day???

For every guy that says they do it, we have 2-3 guys who posts threads like "Growler goes Boom"

Like this-

Don't do it. I used to and had a couple explode.

 

[befus]

I wonder if the beer was even through fermenting at one week? Maybe, but if not the still fermenting and now primed beer could/would cause bottle bombs in even pressure proofed bottles. Personally I would immediately get some two liter soda bottles and get that stuff out of those growlers and transferred by any means possible before you have a terrible mess on your hands. All the above posts are good and timely advice.

 

[ak-71]

I don't have much of experiense yet, but..
.
I don't know about growlers, but would be scared to use them.

I think cooling bottles early doesn't buy you anithing (unless it's one of the beers that doesn't age well), but I have to disagree that "no less than 3 weeks" rule has no exeptions though because:

1. If the "conditioning" is done before bottling (good temp. control, proper pitching rates, "clean" east, etc) you may not need much conditioning - I would just taste some a week then 2 weeks after bottling.
2. if all you need is CO2 and you have enough yeast avaliable it has to be able to ferment small amount of simple sugar in less than 3 weeks (again I would taste some see how carbonation is going)
3. Cooling it lets CO2 to dissolve in the beer.

That said I try to keep at least some bottles warm for longer then 3 weeks - doesn't hurt and one of my batches tasted better after 4-5 weeks warm conditioning and couple bottles I left in the fridge for another ~ 1.5 months made them really good.

 

[gr8shandini]

I wonder if the beer was even through fermenting at one week? . . .

A "Guinness-like stout" would clock in under 1.040. There's no reason to believe that it wasn't finished with primary in one week (assuming he hit his predicted FG). It should only take 2 - 3 days at that gravity.

But, yes, most growlers are not an appropriate vessel for carbonating beer.

 

[Nate88237]

My FG was 1.022, although the temperature I measured at wasnt exactly 60 degrees as advised in the instructions. I had a vigorous fermentation after 8 hours of adding yeast to carboy. Co2 bubbles and foam stopped after 2 days of fermentation. I cooled beer in ice bath for 8 hours to make sure sediment had fully sank to bottom. I'm on day 3 of conditioning in growlers and have had no problems yet although I think I will condition in bottles for now on.

 

[gr8shandini]

My FG was 1.022, although the temperature I measured at wasnt exactly 60 degrees as advised in the instructions. I had a vigorous fermentation after 8 hours of adding yeast to carboy. Co2 bubbles and foam stopped after 2 days of fermentation. I cooled beer in ice bath for 8 hours to make sure sediment had fully sank to bottom. I'm on day 3 of conditioning in growlers and have had no problems yet although I think I will condition in bottles for now on.

Ok. I take back my previous statement. My dry stouts finish around 1.008 or so. That's well beyond any temperature correction for the hydrometer. I don't think you're close to being done with this one if the yeast wakes back up.

I don't agree with the month long primary that's advocated by many here, but you might want to slow your roll next time around. Primary fermentation under optimal conditions usually takes 3-5 days for an average strength ale and at least another 48 hours after hitting FG are required for conditioning. Cold crashing is a great way to clear a beer once the yeast have done their job, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

I typically cold crash then package after about 10-14 days in the fermenter. I've cut that down to a week before, and encountered some mild, but noticeable diacetyl off-flavors from it. And that's in a fermentation chamber where I could control the initial temps and give it a slight rise at the end.

 

[billl]

For your sake, I'm going to cross my fingers and hope you just don't know how to use the hydrometer correctly yet or the thing is just broken. If you are fermenting near your storage temp of 70 degrees and it smells like alcohol, you should have beer. If it was really at 1.022 on a dry stout, it would taste more like a dessert than a beer. If it looks like a beer, and smells like a beer, and tastes like a beer ....... then you probably made beer!

As for what to do - I don't think there is much to do besides wait. Leave the growlers at room temp for a couple weeks. I'd put them in plastic bins with a lid to contain any mess if they do turn into bottle bombs. If you do have 1 blow up, just uncap the rest and let them sit for a bit before recapping. Handle them with care - eg assume they are going to explode until you determine otherwise.

 

[ak-71]

Please correct me if I am wrong:

1. I think typical amount of carbonation corn sugar would give you around ~0.002 - 0.0025 additional points in SG (?)

2. If you are at 1.022 (assuming reading is correct) and your expected FG is closer to 1.008 and that happened because fermentation was forced to stop early (not because these sugars left are not fermentable) - it's a lot of extra sugar to carbonate with

I would use extreme caution around those growlers

 

[Nate88237]

Ok, so it sounds like I stopped primary fermentation a bit early (directions said stop 3-4 days after bubbling in airlock has stopped) even though I did a full 7 days. Should I transfer all the bottled growlers back to carboy and try to ferment longer or would this be opening up chances for oxidation and contamination?

Or, should I continue to condition while keeping an eye on the pressure buildup and hope for the best?

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Ok, so it sounds like I stopped primary fermentation a bit early (directions said stop 3-4 days after bubbling in airlock has stopped) even though I did a full 7 days. Should I transfer all the bottled growlers back to carboy and try to ferment longer or would this be opening up chances for oxidation and contamination?

Or, should I continue to condition while keeping an eye on the pressure buildup and hope for the best?

Was your FG stable at 1.022 for a few days? If it was, like it should be before bottling, I'd honestly just gently pour 'em into your bucket and quickly bottle, using bottles this time.
If it wasn't stable, and I'm not saying this is a great idea but your situation isn't exactly ideal either, then maybe you want to get it back into a fermenter and pitch some yeast to get it to actually reach FG.
I'm sure someone's gonna say that that's not a good idea, and they're kinda right, but neither is bottling in growlers and I think it'd be a good idea to get it into regular bottles, especially if it wasn't actually at FG.

General rule of thumb, ferment in primary until you have a stable FG reading over three or more days. Then leave it, in primary, an extra few days to a week. At that point it should be starting to 'drop bright', that's when the yeast begins to drop out and the beer gets clear. That is when you want to bottle. That's just generally speaking, but pretty much all that you have to do. When bottling, either use pop top or flip top (Grolsch-style) bottles, or plastic PET soda bottles, not growlers, or jars, or twist offs.

 

[Nate88237]

I only did one FG reading at racking, I know, amateur move. I will learn for next time! I am going to transfer all the growler beer to 2 liter PET soda containers. I've been reading alot about how these plastic bottles are able to handle extreme pressureand because it looks like I wasnt quite done fermenting, I will surely need the extra pressure tolerance. Does this sound like a good idea or should I do some more brainstorming?

 

[dfc]

I'd definitely transfer the growlers.