I just kegged a Negra Modelo type beer with Baja. I'll let you know in a few weeks. No sulfur smell.
Cali is similar to other Chico yeasts.
I have some Berlin and Nectar that I'll use sometime this year.
Warm Fermented Lager Thread
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Cali is similar to other Chico yeasts.
I have some Berlin and Nectar that I'll use sometime this year.
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Could be, they also do a decoction mash that I didn't do.
Making my first warm-fermented lager. I used W34/70 and pitched one packet at 1.056. I pressurized the fermenter, and I am fermenting at 68. Started night before last.
Last night, it blew up past the gauge's scale, but today I adjusted it to 12 psi. Lots of krausen.
What's a ballpark idea as to when fermentation should be over? I have seen 24 to 36 hours mentioned. That seems mighty fast.
Last night, it blew up past the gauge's scale, but today I adjusted it to 12 psi. Lots of krausen.
What's a ballpark idea as to when fermentation should be over? I have seen 24 to 36 hours mentioned. That seems mighty fast.
Red over White
Well-Known Member
5 days and you can safely keg at your temperature.
Thanks.
Shenanigans
Well-Known Member
Anyone try brewing warm with WLP833 German Bock Lager?
I bought way too much CaraRed and heard the Willy Wonka Bock recipe from the Weyermann website is quite tasty.
I just changed the hops a bit to match what I have and found a cheap out of date pack of WLP833 in the home brew shop.
I'll make a starter with it but would be much more flexible if I could ferment it in my 18oC basement, rather than waiting on my brew fridge to be free.
I bought way too much CaraRed and heard the Willy Wonka Bock recipe from the Weyermann website is quite tasty.
I just changed the hops a bit to match what I have and found a cheap out of date pack of WLP833 in the home brew shop.
I'll make a starter with it but would be much more flexible if I could ferment it in my 18oC basement, rather than waiting on my brew fridge to be free.
I fermented my last batch with WLP833 in the mid 60s Fahrenheit. It turned out pretty darn good, maybe slightly less clean than fermented cold but also not like super estery either, very very slight difference I think.
Shenanigans
Well-Known Member
Cool, I might give it a shot sometime this Spring. A bock should be more forgiving than a Pils anyway.
I did a Festbier last fall under pressure at 68F basement temp with WLP833 (4th pitch). Turned out well.
You don't mention whether it had a crisp taste. I always felt like clean (in terms of esters) and crisp are two different things. I brewed some lagers with S-189 at 67F and thought they were pretty clean as far as esters, but they didn't seem crisp to me. I wonder if I'm off base on this. Maybe what I'm tasting is actually esters. Any thoughts?
"Crisp" is a word I don't use much in my vocabulary, as I honestly don't know what the hell it really means. Do you mean dry and well attenuated? Then I would say yes, I think it is. Almost tart without actually being tart? Yes, I think so. Something else? ??
Well, I thought it was just me, but apparently it is elusive. This is the perfect thread for the question: Does anyone know exactly what "crisp" means?
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Yes, if we're talking adjectives then it's what you guys call "chipped" 
I'm afraid I don't know that usage - any other description?Yes, if we're talking adjectives then it's what you guys call "chipped"
American : potato "chips"
British : "crisps"
Maybe? I'm curious, too.
British : "crisps"
Maybe? I'm curious, too.
Fancy a crisp?
Fancy a crisp lager?
Fancy a crisp and a lager?
Fancy a crisp lager?
Fancy a crisp and a lager?
Go out and buy several commercial Helles and Pilsner types for taste comparisons. If the Pilsners seem what you are calling “crisp” compared to the Helles samples, it may be the hopping levels you are picking up and calling crisp.
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For me, crisp is usually dry and well attenuated. That feeling of “ahhhh” after a sip. Sometimes that accompanies those sulfuric esters, other times it’s a more “clean” profile
From The Splendid Table, The 7 flavor categories of beer: What they are, how to pair them
1. CRISP
Crisp beers are lighter, cleaner in flavor, and crisply refreshing. They range in color from straw to amber, have low to medium abvs, and are light to medium in body.
Delicate fruit: While not particularly malty or hoppy, these styles show a bit of fruit flavor—like green apple, berries or pear—from the employment of ale yeast.
NOTABLE STYLES
Cream Ale
English Blond Ale
American Blond Ale
Wheat Ale
Kölsch
Malt-accented: Lacking the fruit and spice aromatics of most ales and showcasing a much milder hop profile than Pilsners, these brews demonstrate a full bready, almost biscuity, malt flavor in addition to their crisp dispositions.
NOTABLE STYLES
Pale Lager
Helles Lager
Amber Lager
Vienna Lager
Märzen/ Oktoberfest
Helles Bock
Brisk hoppiness: A more emphatic hop regiment, typically employing German and Czech-grown hops (often referred to as Noble hops), results in crisp and refreshing brews that are drier and snappier in the finish, with spicy, herbal, and floral aromas abounding.
NOTABLE STYLES
Pilsner
Kellerbier/ Zwickelbier
Hoppy Lager/ India Pale Lager
Imperial Pilsner
PAIRINGS FOR CRISP BEERS: Spicy cuisines, light seafood, leafy greens and salads, sushi, roast chicken.
I don't think that's any better than the suggestions in this thread, but it has lots of detail. It left out "well attenuated", which I think is an important part of it. And I'm not sure about the "delicate fruit" part.
1. CRISP
Crisp beers are lighter, cleaner in flavor, and crisply refreshing. They range in color from straw to amber, have low to medium abvs, and are light to medium in body.
Delicate fruit: While not particularly malty or hoppy, these styles show a bit of fruit flavor—like green apple, berries or pear—from the employment of ale yeast.
NOTABLE STYLES
Cream Ale
English Blond Ale
American Blond Ale
Wheat Ale
Kölsch
Malt-accented: Lacking the fruit and spice aromatics of most ales and showcasing a much milder hop profile than Pilsners, these brews demonstrate a full bready, almost biscuity, malt flavor in addition to their crisp dispositions.
NOTABLE STYLES
Pale Lager
Helles Lager
Amber Lager
Vienna Lager
Märzen/ Oktoberfest
Helles Bock
Brisk hoppiness: A more emphatic hop regiment, typically employing German and Czech-grown hops (often referred to as Noble hops), results in crisp and refreshing brews that are drier and snappier in the finish, with spicy, herbal, and floral aromas abounding.
NOTABLE STYLES
Pilsner
Kellerbier/ Zwickelbier
Hoppy Lager/ India Pale Lager
Imperial Pilsner
PAIRINGS FOR CRISP BEERS: Spicy cuisines, light seafood, leafy greens and salads, sushi, roast chicken.
I don't think that's any better than the suggestions in this thread, but it has lots of detail. It left out "well attenuated", which I think is an important part of it. And I'm not sure about the "delicate fruit" part.
Seems too wide to me. This emcompasses half the brewing styles. Maybe they are looking at is more from a food standpoint. Just seems like the writer is all over the map.
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Yes - several ales are included.
A better description might be What makes a beer crisp? - Allagash Brewing Company.
It includes carbonation, mouthfeel, residual sugars, and balance. To me, it's still elusive.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Yep, I was just playing with those.
I'd say "crisp" is less a flavour and more a description of how they are structured. We talk about a "crisply-ironed shirt" and that's maybe not a bad way to think about it - there are only creases at the places they're meant to be, and those folds are sharp and precise. In fact I'd say "precise" is probably the best one-word description - or the opposite of "muddled" (in both the "thinking" and cocktail-making senses of the word). All the flavours are clear and exact, in the place they're meant to be and not merging into each other.
Baja yeast is good so far. Tastes like a Mexican lager. I fermented at 55 so doesn't fit with this thread.
I'd like to know how this turned out as I have not had luck under pitching with 34/70. One packet for 1.056 wort is definitely under pitching. However, I have not pressure fermented with it. I've had a lot of trouble with acetaldehyde and 34/70 due to under pitching. In my experience, do not rush it. Let the yeasties do their thing to avoid off flavors.
I have not been able to detect any off flavors in the samples, but it won't be kegged until today.
It took about a week but i waded through this thread and bout half way through i thought i had it sussed but by the end of it was getting confused again.
ive had my first lager lined up for a year or more but keep putting it off. i much prefer ales, both US and UK but sometimes a lager just hits the spot. however not all lagers are the same. i am not a fan of most commercial lager and also not a fan of kolch or steam beers my preferred lager would be continental types. Krombacher would be a good commercial example of a pilsner i like.
My question is for those who have brewed continental style pils type lagers using both warm fermentations and cold fermentations so they have a solid comparison point, obviously following best practise with both (eg if warm fermenting using a suitable yeast) ... is there a difference?
I really dont want to end up with anything resembling bud, coors, fosters, carlsberg carling etc.
Also away from pils, I am a big fan of Brooklyn amber lager so that may be a safe place to start
Second question, i can ferment under pressure but is it in fact needed? it seems not reading the thread.
ive had my first lager lined up for a year or more but keep putting it off. i much prefer ales, both US and UK but sometimes a lager just hits the spot. however not all lagers are the same. i am not a fan of most commercial lager and also not a fan of kolch or steam beers my preferred lager would be continental types. Krombacher would be a good commercial example of a pilsner i like.
My question is for those who have brewed continental style pils type lagers using both warm fermentations and cold fermentations so they have a solid comparison point, obviously following best practise with both (eg if warm fermenting using a suitable yeast) ... is there a difference?
I really dont want to end up with anything resembling bud, coors, fosters, carlsberg carling etc.
Also away from pils, I am a big fan of Brooklyn amber lager so that may be a safe place to start
Second question, i can ferment under pressure but is it in fact needed? it seems not reading the thread.
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If you like a nice amber lager then I would recommend starting there. Don't overthink it or you'll be another year with that lager still in the plans. That style will be more forgiving as you figure out process and get used to the differences in lager brewing. Find a good vienna recipe and/or look up a Brooklyn clone. Keep the caramel malts restrained and you'll be fine. There are a couple solid looking Brooklyn Amber clones out there and, interestingly, it looks like it's dry hopped. Do what you want, though. My first lager was a helles and I turned out just fine...
If you go that way then push the beer into the flavor you want with the ingredients. It will depend on your process, too, but some good German malt, hops, and yeast will do a good job of not making your beer taste like Coors.In my opinion, I think it's a mistake here to make a comparison of a cold fermented lager with one yeast to a warm fermented lager with another. I don't think you are specifically trying to do that but it looks like it's inherent in your logic here. A yeast like 34/70 warm OR cold will likely give you a different profile than another yeast that is not suitable for warm ferments just because it's a different yeast. The differences in lager yeast tend to be more subtle than ales but they are there. I wouldn't stress about this too much but since you are giving this some serious thought I figured it is worth mentioning.
When I ferment colder it's typically because I'm using a different yeast that doesn't behave as well at a warmer temp. I'm doing that because I'm looking for a different effect in my beer. Different yeasts might change your lager in a number of ways such as giving you distinct ester flavors, accentuating malt profile, producing more sulfur, adding a more crisp/quenchable profile, etc.
I suggest starting with 34/70 warmer and see how you like it. In my experience 34/70 is not that different over a broad temperature range and it's very widely used. I ferment it warm because I can. There might be some differences at higher/lower temps but I think they are relatively slight. It's not going to give you a Coors/kolsch/steam if you ferment it around maybe 60F or so. I think most would agree on that. Then try it cold and see if you notice the difference. Then try some different yeasts and see how they compare and if you like what they do differently for your beer. You can't try them all at once, though, so just get started
I'll focus on your use of the word "needed" and as a result my answer is simply no.
Thanks for putting in the time here, some really good feedback.If you like a nice amber lager then I would recommend starting there. Don't overthink it or you'll be another year with that lager still in the plans. That style will be more forgiving as you figure out process and get used to the differences in lager brewing. Find a good vienna recipe and/or look up a Brooklyn clone. Keep the caramel malts restrained and you'll be fine. There are a couple solid looking Brooklyn Amber clones out there and, interestingly, it looks like it's dry hopped. Do what you want, though. My first lager was a helles and I turned out just fine...
In my opinion, I think it's a mistake here to make a comparison of a cold fermented lager with one yeast to a warm fermented lager with another. I don't think you are specifically trying to do that but it looks like it's inherent in your logic here. A yeast like 34/70 warm OR cold will likely give you a different profile than another yeast that is not suitable for warm ferments just because it's a different yeast. The differences in lager yeast tend to be more subtle than ales but they are there. I wouldn't stress about this too much but since you are giving this some serious thought I figured it is worth mentioning.
When I ferment colder it's typically because I'm using a different yeast that doesn't behave as well at a warmer temp. I'm doing that because I'm looking for a different effect in my beer. Different yeasts might change your lager in a number of ways such as giving you distinct ester flavors, accentuating malt profile, producing more sulfur, adding a more crisp/quenchable profile, etc.
I suggest starting with 34/70 warmer and see how you like it. In my experience 34/70 is not that different over a broad temperature range and it's very widely used. I ferment it warm because I can. There might be some differences at higher/lower temps but I think they are relatively slight. It's not going to give you a Coors/kolsch/steam if you ferment it around maybe 60F or so. I think most would agree on that. Then try it cold and see if you notice the difference. Then try some different yeasts and see how they compare and if you like what they do differently for your beer. You can't try them all at once, though, so just get started
I'll focus on your use of the word "needed" and as a result my answer is simply no.
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No problem! You had good questions. There are others here with plenty more experience than me so I look forward to hearing what they have to say. Regardless, you've just got to jump in at some point and start to figure out for yourself
yes, i can tell the difference between a warm-fermented version of a beer and its cold-fermented equivalent. HOWEVER, the difference isn't huge - my WF lagers are still clean, very low ester, low sulfur, etc. - while leads me to question the extra effort of traditional (i.e cold) lager fermentation. i don't want to go through the pain and expense of setting up enough fridge space for a once-a-year brew, for what i perceive as a minor difference. YMMV. if i had a fridge full of cash and limitless brewery space, i'd consider setting up dedicated lagering space... but i don't
warm fermentation isn't what is going to result in something tasting like those industrial lager, in fact it'll push you in the opposite direction. those beers are characterized, IMO, by their "cleanliness" - AKA their restrained flavor. to get something similar, you'd want to:
- use adjuncts such as rice, corn or sugar to get alcohol without adding to the malt flavor (except carlburg, iirc)
- ferment cold, as this suppresses yeast esters
- ferment with a very clean lager yeast, not something (relatively) flavorful like Weihenstephan, Bohemian, etc.
needed? definitely not. i suspect that most folks here are fermenting un-pressured.
I brewed the wrong beer by mistake and had to ferment without pressure. It's a light lager, and I used 34/70. I fermented in the mid-60's. It's not finished, but the samples taste fantastic. It's what "industrial lager" would taste like if they used decent ingredients and cared about quality.
On the other hand, I made a never-fail recipe under pressure, and so far, it doesn't taste good at all. The bitterness is harsh and metallic. I am hoping some rest will fix it. Same yeast and temperature.
On the other hand, I made a never-fail recipe under pressure, and so far, it doesn't taste good at all. The bitterness is harsh and metallic. I am hoping some rest will fix it. Same yeast and temperature.
Well, I have to take that back. Tonight I had an Old Rasputin because I was wondering if coronavirus was still messing with me, and I needed a beer I could trust. It wasn't great. Too harsh.
Old Rasputin is what I would consider a perfect beer, and I very much doubt they send out bad batches, so I think something is still going on with my senses. Apparently, it can come and go. My guess is that the Old Rasputin was flawless and there was something wrong with me.
Old Rasputin is what I would consider a perfect beer, and I very much doubt they send out bad batches, so I think something is still going on with my senses. Apparently, it can come and go. My guess is that the Old Rasputin was flawless and there was something wrong with me.
If you absolutely must drink while still suffering the after-effects of COVID, now might be the perfect time to reach way back in the cabinet and guzzle that bad bottle of liquor that you haven't opened at all for the past 10 years or whatever.
Personally, I use such times to eat large quantities of superfood vegetables like kale or whatever other crap my wife has in the fridge that no one ever eats.
Again, cheers. Great feedback.yes, i can tell the difference between a warm-fermented version of a beer and its cold-fermented equivalent. HOWEVER, the difference isn't huge - my WF lagers are still clean, very low ester, low sulfur, etc. - while leads me to question the extra effort of traditional (i.e cold) lager fermentation. i don't want to go through the pain and expense of setting up enough fridge space for a once-a-year brew, for what i perceive as a minor difference. YMMV. if i had a fridge full of cash and limitless brewery space, i'd consider setting up dedicated lagering space... but i don't
warm fermentation isn't what is going to result in something tasting like those industrial lager, in fact it'll push you in the opposite direction. those beers are characterized, IMO, by their "cleanliness" - AKA their restrained flavor. to get something similar, you'd want to:
fermenting warm with 34/40 resulting in a hint of esters + using all malt + no having all the QA/QC controls of a multinational = no worries about producing those beers.
- use adjuncts such as rice, corn or sugar to get alcohol without adding to the malt flavor (except carlburg, iirc)
- ferment cold, as this suppresses yeast esters
- ferment with a very clean lager yeast, not something (relatively) flavorful like Weihenstephan, Bohemian, etc.
needed? definitely not. i suspect that most folks here are fermenting un-pressured.
I have the option to get temps right down as well as put under pressure but given the advice above I’m just going to keep it simple this time and do a standard warm ferment.
I’m going to go for a Brooklyn lager clone ( from byo) probably with diamond Yeast and ferment 18c (65c) for 10 days to two weeks. Cold crash then closed transfer to keg where it can continue to cold crash /condition in my serving fridge at about 5c (40f) a month 0r so. Basically exactly how I treat pale ales and IPAs.
I’m going to go for a Brooklyn lager clone ( from byo) probably with diamond Yeast and ferment 18c (65c) for 10 days to two weeks. Cold crash then closed transfer to keg where it can continue to cold crash /condition in my serving fridge at about 5c (40f) a month 0r so. Basically exactly how I treat pale ales and IPAs.
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Okay, two week update on the Novalager test batch. Proper pour into a proper glass this time. The recipe and everything is up above on this same page. Link for the extremely lazy.
The initial impression is that the yeast is pretty neutral. The first thing I notice is the malt flavor coming through. The typical light bread and nuttiness that I expect to get from these malts was prominent on the first sips.
After the first sip or two I get past that and pick up a light/medium, but definitely noticeable, ester profile. The apple didn't go away but it's not overwhelming at all. Definitely more green apple than red, though. There is a slight acidic touch that makes it come across as very lightly, pleasantly sour. After that is a tropical banana/melon flavor and then what I would describe as something between slightly unripe strawberry and rose. None of the flavors were overwhelming at all but the second two (banana/melon and strawberry/rose) were much more faint.
Overall, definitely a fruitier yeast at this temp than 34/70 or Diamond. The flavor worked pretty well, though, and wasn't so strong that it clashed with the malt or hops. I'm also surprised at how well it has cleaned up already. It was extremely drinkable and had a really satisfying finish. For an easy, quick turn lager I would definitely do it again without hesitation. I'll be interested to see if the esters are noticeable in a cold IPA but I'm sure they wouldn't trash it.
Here are a couple pics. Stupid condensation in the one but you can see in the other that it's pretty clear. The yeast is definitely a little powdery but not crazy.
The initial impression is that the yeast is pretty neutral. The first thing I notice is the malt flavor coming through. The typical light bread and nuttiness that I expect to get from these malts was prominent on the first sips.
After the first sip or two I get past that and pick up a light/medium, but definitely noticeable, ester profile. The apple didn't go away but it's not overwhelming at all. Definitely more green apple than red, though. There is a slight acidic touch that makes it come across as very lightly, pleasantly sour. After that is a tropical banana/melon flavor and then what I would describe as something between slightly unripe strawberry and rose. None of the flavors were overwhelming at all but the second two (banana/melon and strawberry/rose) were much more faint.
Overall, definitely a fruitier yeast at this temp than 34/70 or Diamond. The flavor worked pretty well, though, and wasn't so strong that it clashed with the malt or hops. I'm also surprised at how well it has cleaned up already. It was extremely drinkable and had a really satisfying finish. For an easy, quick turn lager I would definitely do it again without hesitation. I'll be interested to see if the esters are noticeable in a cold IPA but I'm sure they wouldn't trash it.
Here are a couple pics. Stupid condensation in the one but you can see in the other that it's pretty clear. The yeast is definitely a little powdery but not crazy.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
You'd have thunk, but in reality it doesn't quite work like that, in the same way that I always get volunteered for unblocking toilets because they think "he's not being able to smell since 2020, he'll be fine" - unfortunately all the earthy, sewagey smells work just fine, it's all the "nice" ones like fruity esters that I can't...
I'm still trying to find cheap wine that may have all the wrong esters but still has decent mouthfeel as that's what I can appreciate - still haven't sussed it yet, must try some Pinotage some time as historically I've had a lot of problems with that.
I like excellent beer and excellent whiskey and brandy, but other than that, I have nearly no interest in drinking. Before I started brewing again, I used to go months without any alcohol.
I just brewed a vienna lager and I am using s-23. I having dinner plans and I thought it would cool down quicker. It didn't. Its currently sitting around 70F and I am suppposed to leave the house in 20 min. Do I wait it out and potentially have the wort too cold by the time I get back or pitch now. I am worried it would be far too unhappy if I pitch at high 60's but I don't know much about this yeast as I've only used it the once. I did a starter this morning to give it a headstart as this is round #2 with it (I bottled last week). I'm guessing its been in the mid 60's for about 6 hours. The starter seems happy so far. I'm aiming for some esters, just wasn't going for a lot.
eek, just saw this - what did you do? how's it going?
i'm not a big fan of S-23 - the one time i used it for a WF, it took the longest to "clean up" as compared to other lager yeasts. after 6 months of lagering it was quite nice, but the others were drinkable within a few weeks.
