Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[applescrap]

Iirc I let the gas out, filled it with gas, let gas out, etc..a bunch of times, a bunch of days in a row. It did eventually go away. Sucked, but did work out iirc. There are some other fixes I think too. Best of luck.

Well problem is I have already kegged and did gelatin fining. I have removed it from gas and will just de-gas and lager for a while in my kegerator or is it toast?

 

[Schlenkerla]

Is anybody in this thread a Low Oxygen Brewer?

Just curious with the sulfur discussion is there a natural sulfite emitted with various yeasts that combat cold side oxidation.

 

[Bohern]

Iirc I let the gas out, filled it with gas, let gas out, etc..a bunch of times, a bunch of days in a row. It did eventually go away. Sucked, but did work out iirc. There are some other fixes I think too. Best of luck.

I'll give that a try, thanks

 

[ba-brewer]

I believe if you put the CO2 through the beer out post while you relieve pressure it will speed up the process. It will stir up any sediment though.

 

[Localhopper]

Well problem is I have already kegged and did gelatin fining. I have removed it from gas and will just de-gas and lager for a while in my kegerator or is it toast?

Nah not toast I’d say give it some time. I experienced the same thing and over the month and a half I had the keg it kept getting better until the last pint.

 

[brewbama]

Is anybody in this thread a Low Oxygen Brewer?

Just curious with the sulfur discussion is there a natural sulfite emitted with various yeasts that combat cold side oxidation.

I am a struggling Low Oxygen brewer. I have incorporated many techniques into my brewery but I’m still finding evidence of leaks. Tieg for example.

Sulfur is normal with lager yeast, it needs to age out before you keg or bottle. The slightest hint could be seen as desirable.

I used to think some yeasts just throw sulfur off smells and flavors as a natural characteristic of the strain. And that may still be true. However, in my limited experience in both warmer fermentations and higher pitch rates, I have not had the sulfur smells during fermentation with 34/70, MJ Cal Common, or S-189.

Welp, the first batch didn't turn out so good. It is drinkable for me maybe but not for any friends. I get a sulphur note on the nose as soon as it is poured. It tastes ok, but so far disappointed.

How much Imp Harvest did you pitch?

Could it be the sulfur is a sign of stress? Whether that stress is underpitching, oxidation, temp, or whatever.

Or could it be Harvest is just not a candidate for warm fermentation?

My warm lager fermentations have been vigorous: fast start and fast finish. It reminded me of an Ale fermentation. Possibly this aggressive ferment has scrubbed the sulfur more like an Ale fermentation. [emoji2369]

...or it may be as simple as your wort may be short on zinc or nitrogen. Adding some nutrient might help.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/5-common-homebrew-flavors-fix-pt-ii/

 

[Bohern]

I am a struggling Low Oxygen brewer. I have incorporated many techniques into my brewery but I’m still finding evidence of leaks. Tieg for example.



I used to think some yeasts just throw sulfur off smells and flavors as a natural characteristic of the strain. And that may still be true. However, in my limited experience in both warmer fermentations and higher pitch rates, I have not had the sulfur smells during fermentation with 34/70, MJ Cal Common, or S-189.



How much Imp Harvest did you pitch?

Could it be the sulfur is a sign of stress? Whether that stress is underpitching, oxidation, temp, or whatever.

Or could it be Harvest is just not a candidate for warm fermentation?

I am a struggling Low Oxygen brewer. I have incorporated many techniques into my brewery but I’m still finding evidence of leaks. Tieg for example.



I used to think some yeasts just throw sulfur off smells and flavors as a natural characteristic of the strain. And that may still be true. However, in my limited experience in both warmer fermentations and higher pitch rates, I have not had the sulfur smells during fermentation with 34/70, MJ Cal Common, or S-189.



How much Imp Harvest did you pitch?

Could it be the sulfur is a sign of stress? Whether that stress is underpitching, oxidation, temp, or whatever.

Or could it be Harvest is just not a candidate for warm fermentation?

My warm lager fermentations have been vigorous: fast start and fast finish. It reminded me of an Ale fermentation. Possibly this aggressive ferment has scrubbed the sulfur more like an Ale fermentation.

...or it may be as simple as your wort may be short on zinc or nitrogen. Adding some nutrient might help.

I used one pouch of Harvest and fermented at 66 deg for 4 days and then ramped to 73 for 4 days. Then kegged and cold crashed

 

[Bohern]

Harvest was a recommendation from Marshall at Brülosophy

 

[brewbama]

I am just spit balling here: Depending on what calculator you use, the OG of the beer, the age of the yeast pack and who you believe, lagers can require upwards of 500-600B cells in a routine 1.056 wort. Direct pitching one pack of Imp Harvest may have been asking too much, caused stressed, and so produced an excessive byproduct (sulfur). Again, just guessing...

Here’s an example:

 

[balrog]

74% base, 18% Munich, 4% Med Caramel malt, 4% Chocolate. 19 IBU Magnum @60, 9 IBU Tradition @10. Hochkurz mash. 2x 34/70 @64*F

What mash temps/times in the mash schedule, and what fermentation schedule times?

I'll give that a try, thanks

Copper scrubs sulfur; I've seen it mentioned on there before; here's a quick Google article also.

 

[applescrap]

I have got sulfur when pitching into beer that is too warm. I think definitely a little yeast stress. That said it is my understanding that some sulfur is normal with lager strains. Even on the cleanest of ferments a little sulfur is in the background.

 

[brewbama]

What mash temps/times in the mash schedule, and what fermentation schedule times?.

I don’t change the set temp during fermentation. Once I close transfer to a cleaned, sanitized keg, if I did catch the spund window, I let it finish at room temp for three daze then cold crash under CO2 pressure. If I didn’t catch the spund window, I close transfer to a cleaned, sanitized keg and cold crash under CO2 pressure.

Here’s my mash schedule. Straight out of Brauwelt: http://www.********************/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/pddvxvf.pdf

 

[Bohern]

I am going to try to degass it and see if that helps along with some time.

My temps were constant and I pitched at 66deg so maybe I under pitched or just didn’t let it go long enough.

I use a copper counterflow chiller and did a 15 min whirlpool too

 

[Robert65]

I am a struggling Low Oxygen brewer. I have incorporated many techniques into my brewery but I’m still finding evidence of leaks. Tieg for example.

FWIW Teig in itself is not a sign of HSA, it's an intrinsic feature of any mash. Things like the color of the Teig can be indicators of HSA.

 

[brewbama]

FWIW Teig in itself is not a sign of HSA, it's an intrinsic feature of any mash. Things like the color of the Teig can be indicators of HSA.

I was listening to an MBAA podcast where the guest said Teig was an indication of HSA. Sometimes I get build up on my RIMS element and sometimes I don’t. Oh well, I try.

 

[Robert65]

I was listening to an MBAA podcast where the guest said Teig was an indication of HSA. Sometimes I get build up on my RIMS element and sometimes I don’t. Oh well, I try.

Yeah I listened to that too, and didn't quite get what he was getting at. It sounded like he thought an excess was indicative of HSA but I'm not sure how that would work, though I won't discount the possibility. There's always going to be Teig, it's made up of grist particles, and proteins and lipids and such you've worked to precipitate. But I've noticed that, with the inclusion of Brew Tan and elimination of HSA, mine is a bright, warm, tan color like the grist started out on dough in. It used to be darker and gray, clearly from oxidation.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I am a struggling Low Oxygen brewer. I have incorporated many techniques into my brewery but I’m still finding evidence of leaks. Tieg for example.



I used to think some yeasts just throw sulfur off smells and flavors as a natural characteristic of the strain. And that may still be true. However, in my limited experience in both warmer fermentations and higher pitch rates, I have not had the sulfur smells during fermentation with 34/70, MJ Cal Common, or S-189.



How much Imp Harvest did you pitch?

Could it be the sulfur is a sign of stress? Whether that stress is underpitching, oxidation, temp, or whatever.

Or could it be Harvest is just not a candidate for warm fermentation?

My warm lager fermentations have been vigorous: fast start and fast finish. It reminded me of an Ale fermentation. Possibly this aggressive ferment has scrubbed the sulfur more like an Ale fermentation. [emoji2369]

...or it may be as simple as your wort may be short on zinc or nitrogen. Adding some nutrient might help.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/5-common-homebrew-flavors-fix-pt-ii/

The word Teig threw me. Not 100% sure it's meaning. Is it the powder from your grind?

Yeah I listened to that too, and didn't quite get what he was getting at. It sounded like he thought an excess was indicative of HSA but I'm not sure how that would work, though I won't discount the possibility. There's always going to be Teig, it's made up of grist particles, and proteins and lipids and such you've worked to precipitate. But I've noticed that, with the inclusion of Brew Tan and elimination of HSA, mine is a bright, warm, tan color like the grist started out on dough in. It used to be darker and gray, clearly from oxidation.

Do both of you grain condition?

 

[Robert65]

@Schlenkerla,

1) Teig (German, = dough) Unterteig/underdough, the sludge under the plates of your false bottom. Oberteig/top dough, the layer of paste on top of your mash, largely consisting of underdough you have recirculated to the top, which you may need to cut occasionally to ensure even flow.

2) I do. Pretty sure @brewbama does.

 

[LokiM4]

Do both of you grain condition?

Grain Condition?

 

[ba-brewer]

grain conditioning is a nice spritz of water prior to milling. Softens hulls so they don't tear up so much also keeps kernel in bigger pieces.

 

[brewbama]

The word Teig threw me. Not 100% sure it's meaning. Is it the powder from your grind?Do both of you grain condition?

I do condition prior to milling just before mash in.

The only place I accumulate Teig (on occasion) is on the RIMS element. It’s a creamy film build up.

In an old brewstrong episode (HSA 1/26/09) featuring an interview with Bamforth he states,"oxygen reacts with gel proteins to cross-link them and that causes this sticky gel formation called the 'teig'".

 

[Schlenkerla]

I do condition prior to milling just before mash in.

The only place I accumulate Teig (on occasion) is on the RIMS element. It’s a creamy film build up.

In an old brewstrong episode (HSA 1/26/09) featuring an interview with Bamforth he states,"oxygen reacts with gel proteins to cross-link them and that causes this sticky gel formation called the 'teig'".

Ok, I don't have that. I'm using a HERMs but have a white powder build up. I attributed it to yeast scavenging my brewing water.

I do get some build up in the kettle bottom mimicking the burner heat transfer through the coil in my BK.

 

[Bohern]

@brewbama I am doing a Helles again next week with a target OG of 1.050. I have ordered 34/70 for yeast and want to know how many packs of 34/70 should I use for a 5 gallon batch?

anyone else who wants to chime in please do as well, I welcome all comments / suggestions

Thanks and Cheers!

 

[Robert65]

In an old brewstrong episode (HSA 1/26/09) featuring an interview with Bamforth he states,"oxygen reacts with gel proteins to cross-link them and that causes this sticky gel formation called the 'teig'".

Sounds like maybe the word Teig applies to more than one thing? The standard usage from German brewing refers basically to fines or grist (in fact between Unterteig and Oberteig the grain bed is called Hauptteig, main dough.) Mine isn't sticky or gel like, just seems to be made up of fines (but it did used to discolor, not surprising, so does oxidized wort.) I wonder if certain mash programs can also reduce these gel proteins.

 

[brewbama]

@brewbama I am doing a Helles again next week with a target OG of 1.050. I have ordered 34/70 for yeast and want to know how many packs of 34/70 should I use for a 5 gallon batch?

anyone else who wants to chime in please do as well, I welcome all comments / suggestions

Thanks and Cheers!

I like to use 1 gram per liter. I’d use 2 packs.

 

[Bohern]

I like to use 1 gram per liter. I’d use 2 packs.

Thanks and Cheers!

 

[brewbama]

Sounds like maybe the word Teig applies to more than one thing? The standard usage from German brewing refers basically to fines or grist (in fact between Unterteig and Oberteig the grain bed is called Hauptteig, main dough.) Mine isn't sticky or gel like, just seems to be made up of fines (but it did used to discolor, not surprising, so does oxidized wort.) I wonder if certain mash programs can also reduce these gel proteins.

When I started brewing using the “crush till your scared” “just dump water in on the crushed grain” and “stir like it owes you money” single infusion batch sparge, I’d get a grey build up on top of the grainbed. I didn’t know what it was and shrugged it off as a normal byproduct of the mashing process. I now believe it was Teig caused by oxidation.

I do not get the layer on top of the bed anymore because I try to take precautions against oxidation but occasionally I do get a cream colored build up film on the RIMS element. Some brewdays are worse than others which I believe is due to ‘leaks’ in my system (aka I got sloppy). It’s like a birthday present after each brewday when I open the tube to clean up and see how I did. The film literally wipes off under running water to reveal a shiny like new element underneath.

 

[Robert65]

When I started brewing using the “crush till your scared” “just dump water in on the crushed grain” and “stir like it owes you money” single infusion batch sparge, I’d get a grey build up on top of the grainbed. I didn’t know what it was and shrugged it off as a normal byproduct of the mashing process. I now believe it was Teig caused by oxidation.

I do not get the layer on top of the bed anymore because I try to take precautions against oxidation but occasionally I do get a cream colored build up film on the RIMS element. Some brewdays are worse than others which I believe is due to ‘leaks’ in my system (aka I got sloppy). It’s like a birthday present after each brewday when I open the tube to clean up and see how I did. The film literally wipes off under running water to reveal a shiny like new element underneath.

Maybe the reason that cream colored material shows up in different places for each of us is the different methods we use. I don't continuously recirculate. I bet we're both looking at fines, and the amount is dependent on how well our crush goes on a given day. I'm still looking for the sweet spot on the mill gap, and opening it up progressively since I started conditioning. Learning from your reported experience there!

 

[brewbama]

Very well could be. My ‘grits vs flour crush’ credit goes to Dave Miller and Van Havig. They sold me on the permeability of the grain bed and slowing the pump way down to flow thru the bed vs around it. So far so good.

 

[ba-brewer]

When I started brewing using the “crush till your scared” “just dump water in on the crushed grain” and “stir like it owes you money” single infusion batch sparge, I’d get a grey build up on top of the grainbed. I didn’t know what it was and shrugged it off as a normal byproduct of the mashing process. I now believe it was Teig caused by oxidation.

I do not get the layer on top of the bed anymore because I try to take precautions against oxidation but occasionally I do get a cream colored build up film on the RIMS element. Some brewdays are worse than others which I believe is due to ‘leaks’ in my system (aka I got sloppy). It’s like a birthday present after each brewday when I open the tube to clean up and see how I did. The film literally wipes off under running water to reveal a shiny like new element underneath.

I think I used to get a layer on top when I batched sparge too don't recall the color being too dark. I never really stirred to hard but I did get a thorough mix and did it several times during the mash. Now with my RIMS I don't get much of anything on top but I do get that same build up you mentioned on my RIMS element and it is a bit random as to the amount. When I started using my RIMS I was not giving it much flow and the buildup was worst. With a faster flow it is minimal, to done. I have always conditioned and milled just prior to dough in, I think the pump helps pulls the fine stuff into the grain better than gravity.

edit: We might be getting a bit off topic for this thread.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I think I used to get a layer on top when I batched sparge too don't recall the color being too dark. I never really stirred to hard but I did get a thorough mix and did it several times during the mash. Now with my RIMS I don't get much of anything on top but I do get that same build up you mentioned on my RIMS element and it is a bit random as to the amount. When I started using my RIMS I was not giving it much flow and the buildup was worst. With a faster flow it is minimal, to done. I have always conditioned and milled just prior to dough in, I think the pump helps pulls the fine stuff into the grain better than gravity.

edit: We might be getting a bit off topic for this thread.

FWIW - It's not bothering me.....

 

[LokiM4]

grain conditioning is a nice spritz of water prior to milling. Softens hulls so they don't tear up so much also keeps kernel in bigger pieces.

Ahhh, I recall it now. Not at all concerned with bigger kernels as I BIAB so I double crush as fine as my mill will go for better efficiency. I can’t stick a sparge.

 

[Robert65]

Ahhh, I recall it now. Not at all concerned with bigger kernels as I BIAB so I double crush as fine as my mill will go for better efficiency. I can’t stick a sparge.

Low oxygen brewers want a coarse crush because the finer the crush, the greater the LOX activity and oxidation. Like everything in brewing, there's a trade off between efficiency and other things you might prioritize. Crush is just another area of compromise.

 

[LokiM4]

Low oxygen brewers want a coarse crush because the finer the crush, the greater the LOX activity and oxidation. Like everything in brewing, there's a trade off between efficiency and other things you might prioritize. Crush is just another area of compromise.

Compromise or differential methodology based on means and methods. Significantly larger kernels aren’t compromise for anyone who BIAB’s. They’re simply asking for terrible efficiency-the compromise comes in using a more standard crush and a bit of extra grain or a finer crush and eeking out a bit more efficiency with the same amount of grain.

 

[Bohern]

First off my sulphur issue has almost gone away from my Helles and it is only 13 days old. I have been venting and shaking the keg so seems to have worked, many thanks!

Now a question. I am going to brew another batch of the helles using 34/70, would you recommend hydrating the yeast or just pouring the packet right into the wort?

 

[brewbama]

First off my sulphur issue has almost gone away from my Helles and it is only 13 days old. I have been venting and shaking the keg so seems to have worked, many thanks!

Now a question. I am going to brew another batch of the helles using 34/70, would you recommend hydrating the yeast or just pouring the packet right into the wort?

Good to hear about the sulfur dissipation. I pitch 34/70 direct at 1 gram per liter.

 

[applescrap]

Perhaps we could ask a mod to start a new thread and move the low oxygen discussion and posts there. Not that I have ever gone off topic

 

[Schlenkerla]

Perhaps we could ask a mod to start a new thread and move the low oxygen discussion and posts there. Not that I have ever gone off topic

Nice Scrappy.... You want us LOBers in the back of the bus? - LoL

I don't think the LOB can take it off track to far as pertains to warm lager fermentation. Pitching to kegging it's not too much different than normal brewing practices if the discussion stays in those lanes.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Compromise or differential methodology based on means and methods. Significantly larger kernels aren’t compromise for anyone who BIAB’s. They’re simply asking for terrible efficiency-the compromise comes in using a more standard crush and a bit of extra grain or a finer crush and eeking out a bit more efficiency with the same amount of grain.

Worth noting people who do grain conditioning want the husk intact to help with better lautering (less of it occuring). You also have less dust in your mash. Also people who typically grain condition have RIMS or HERMS. They step mash through beta glucanase, alpha and beta amylase. The large grist particle isn't a comprise if you can hit the 90s in mash efficiency. Essentially mash longer.

Originally the thought is also to kill Lipoxidase - (LOX) with a sprayed-on 176F hot Liquor. Then wet mill it. The LOX exists in the husk.

FYI - This text at the bottom of web page.

"Lipoxygenase (LOX) catalyses the oxidation of polyunsaturated fatty acids, notably linoleic acid, to hydroperoxides (Doderer et al., 1992). ... It is argued that hydroperoxides produced upstream in malting and brewing survive into the finished beer and progressively decay to release stale character."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/lipoxygenase

 

[Bohern]

My first one has turned out better than I thought