Very weak ale!

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Gerry Nobody

Gerry Nobody

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Okay, so I am trying to learn from my mistakes and was wondering if someone can point out to me what I did wrong here.
I guess my first mistake was being too ambitious. This was my first time brewing beer (have done cider and wine pretty satisfactorily for a few years) and I like strong Belgian ales so tried this recipe: Belgian Dark Strong Ale - Westvleteren 12 Clone - Multiple Award Winner
I followed the ingredients more or less to the letter, but the process...less so. I don't have a stirplate so made the starter just by agitating by hand but that looked okay, the problems started when boiling which, it being first time, I found hard to control, lost a huge amount of water during the process. By the time I strained the wort into the fermentation bin around 18 litres has somehow become around 10, so I added some water, about 3 litres if I recall correctly.
OG was 1.051 so a lot lower than the 1.090 in the recipe. I knew the ale was going to be weaker, but FG was 1.034 which left me with an extremely weak 2.23% ABV. Was this purely because I added water? I suppose I thought the wort was more concentrated so water wouldn't make a huge difference.
The thing is the beer tastes fantastic, so still a nice drink, but just wondering how it ended up so weak. Possibly some mistake I made with he starter?
 
Quite possible, you didn't mix the top up water into the wort very well. Wort and water likes to stratify. Your original gravity sample may have been diluted. If it was truly 1.051, I'd expect the final gravity to be much lower than the 1.034 you report.
 
Adding water dilutes wort, so no real surprise you dropped so much.

From your description it sounds like your measurements were off. How did you measure your preboil and postboil volumes?

How long was the boil and how vigorous was it?

To me it sounds like a stalled fermentation i would expect 1.051 to drop at minimum 1.020 all the way down to 1.010
 
Thanks for the replies!
Possibly I didn't mix thoroughly enough before taking a sample. I recall giving it a quick stir with a ladle, no more. I didn't know that it stratifies that much. I took the sample from the tap at the bottom of the bin. Would be stronger down the bottom I assume?
The boil was for 90 minutes, pretty vigorous, probably too much. I didn't anticipate how much I would lose to evaporation. Obviously this is something that comes with experience. Any tips to avoid this?
 
It's all about taking many very accurate measurements (volume & gravity) throughout the process and dialing in your software to reflect your system.

A recipe is merely a report of the author's experience on their specific system.

Separately, you need only a gentle boil.
 
Without an accurate gravity/volume reading somewhere in the process, it's hard to troubleshoot where the problem lies, but we can try.
It's hard to believe you'd end up with 5 gallons of 1.051 wort using 15 pounds of base grain and 2.5 pounds of candi/sugar syrup, unless...

Did you actually mash the milled grain at 148F for an hour, not merely steep them?
Did you take any gravity readings from that?

Gerry Nobody said:
By the time I strained the wort into the fermentation bin around 18 litres has somehow become around 10,
Click to expand...
18 liters is too low of a pre-boil volume for a 5 gallon/19 liter batch. But your gravity would have been accordingly high if the mash (and lauter) were successful.

If you were boiling on a large propane burner outside, it's easy to boil off 8 liters (2 gallons) in an hour. But at such a low post boil volume, gravity would have been proportionally gigantic.

Wort gravity (girth) and volume (length) are like a rubber band. Short and thick or long and thin, the same amount of rubber. Unless... you lost sugars along the way.
 
I see your point. I should've taken gravity reading immediately after the boil. I would definitely say the wort was boiling the whole time rather than steeping.
I think I ended up with around 10 litres, to which I added 3 litres of water, and it was after that I took the reading of 1.051.
 
Gerry Nobody said:
I should've taken gravity reading immediately after the boil.
Click to expand...
Actually before the boil: Pre-boil Gravity (and volume) are most useful data points, it tells you how successful your mash and lauter were.

The first few times you're mashing taking a gravity reading of your first runnings can give you critical information, e.g., that the mash went as planned. You can still tweak things from there on if it's not quite on target.

I still take first runnings gravity readings, as that has become my most important pre-boil data point. Especially with high gravity brews, as that will determine how much I will sparge, in order not to dilute it too much with 2nd and/or 3rd runnings (batch sparging).

Gerry Nobody said:
I would definitely say the wort was boiling the whole time rather than steeping.
Click to expand...
Boiling (simmering) wort is the correct way, after the mash, when brewing all grain.

I was suggesting that perhaps you steeped the grain instead of properly mashing it, before the boil.
"Mashing" and "steeping" are 2 similar, but different processes. A mash is a very controlled "steep" in a certain narrow temperature range (148-160°F or 64-71°C) in order to allow enzymes in the base malts to convert starches from the various grains into sugars.

Steeping is to extract flavor compounds and sugars from the various grains, but due to the much higher (or sometimes lower) temps, there won't be any enzymatic conversion, or very limited.
 
Thanks, that's all valuable info.
I clearly didn't appreciate the importance of controlling the temperature. I would guess if anything it was too high during my boil. I was trying to keep it simmering, a few times it threatened to boil over, although apart from one minor spill near the start I avoided that by keeping an eye on it. I didn't steep the grains at all beforehand, just dumped them in the water and boiled for 90 minutes.
Wouldn't seem to account for such weak fermentation though? Could be something caused it to stall later on. I wasn't able to get the temperatures up to 25-26c during primary fermentation. I think it would have reached 23c tops, but still I wouldn't have thought that would be so significant. Could be several small things contributed to the weakness of the final beer.
Anyway appreciate the comments!
 
Gerry Nobody said:
Thanks, that's all valuable info.
I clearly didn't appreciate the importance of controlling the temperature. I would guess if anything it was too high during my boil. I was trying to keep it simmering, a few times it threatened to boil over, although apart from one minor spill near the start I avoided that by keeping an eye on it. I didn't steep the grains at all beforehand, just dumped them in the water and boiled for 90 minutes.
Wouldn't seem to account for such weak fermentation though? Could be something caused it to stall later on. I wasn't able to get the temperatures up to 25-26c during primary fermentation. I think it would have reached 23c tops, but still I wouldn't have thought that would be so significant. Could be several small things contributed to the weakness of the final beer.
Anyway appreciate the comments!
Click to expand...
I'm not sure that you understand mashing. During the mash the starches are converted to sugars by enzymes that are created by the malting of the grain and these enzymes (there are lots of different enzymes) work at a specific temperature range. You probably got minimal conversion of the starch to sugar as the very enzymes needed were destroyed in the boil. You need to get a better understanding of making beer and one of the best ways is to read, "How to Brew" by John Palmer. The latest edition is the best but there is a lot of information in the online version graciously provided for free by John Palmer. Check it out!

Introduction - How to Brew
 
RM-MN said:
I'm not sure that you understand mashing. During the mash the starches are converted to sugars by enzymes that are created by the malting of the grain and these enzymes (there are lots of different enzymes) work at a specific temperature range. You probably got minimal conversion of the starch to sugar as the very enzymes needed were destroyed in the boil. You need to get a better understanding of making beer and one of the best ways is to read, "How to Brew" by John Palmer. The latest edition is the best but there is a lot of information in the online version graciously provided for free by John Palmer. Check it out!

Introduction - How to Brew
Click to expand...
Right, no clearly I didn't understand that about temperature control. I just thought boiling the grain for a specified amount of time was enough. Will have a read of that. Thanks!
 
Gerry Nobody said:
I wasn't able to get the temperatures up to 25-26c during primary fermentation.
Click to expand...
25-26C (77-79F) is way too high for most fermentations, with only a few exceptions, such as certain Saison yeasts and Kveik.
You wouldn't ferment ciders and wine at that high a temp either, would you?

18-21C (64-70F) is a much better target for those fermentations, but it depends on the yeast used too.
 
IslandLizard said:
25-26C (77-79F) is way too high for most fermentations, with only a few exceptions, such as certain Saison yeasts and Kveik.
You wouldn't ferment ciders and wine at that high a temp either, would you?

18-21C (64-70F) is a much better target for those fermentations, but it depends on the yeast used too.
Click to expand...
Yep, I thought so too. The recipe I went by recommended pimary fermentation ramped up over 7 days 26c, then secondary ending over a week or so at 15c, followed by 40 days at 10c.
In reality though I never had it higher than 23c I'd say, and most of the time closer to 15-17c.
 
Gerry Nobody said:
Yep, I thought so too. The recipe I went by recommended pimary fermentation ramped up over 7 days 26c, then secondary ending over a week or so at 15c, followed by 40 days at 10c.
In reality though I never had it higher than 23c I'd say, and most of the time closer to 15-17c.
Click to expand...
First off, did you read the whole thread? There are some interesting and valuable comments and critiques...

The fermentation schedule in that recipe needs some scrutiny. You do want the fermentation to remain engaged, but that's a rather steep ramping up. Then there's the ramping down...
Also the "secondary" and "tertiary" fermentation is a bit weird. Most use of "secondaries" has been debunked over the past 10 years, as it's usually best to leave the beer on the yeast cake, until it's finished attenuating. That is, unless you exactly know what you're doing, and have the equipment to do so without causing more harm than benefit.

"Westy 12s" are among the most difficult beers to brew, if one wants to mimic the original. It's all in the process.
Over the years I've tasted quite a few homebrew efforts of the Westy 12, and although most were excellent Belgian Dark Strongs that can stand on their own, brewed by accomplished brewers, none were rivals of the original.
 
Yes I read the whole thread. As I said I didn't ramp it up and down quite so steeply.
 
I'd think it was the mash that you handled most improperly.

The boil is simply that, boiling. Though there are things we can argue about how hard a boil or how long a boil is that might change something. The fermentability of your wort really isn't one of them.

The fermentability or how low your FG will be is determined by the temperatures at which you held the malts while the starches in them were converted to sugars. And that temperature is nowhere near boiling.
 
I will ask an obvious question. You said that you just dumped the grain into the boiling water. Was the grain ground and if so, was it a fine grind or more coarse (larger particles of grain)?
 
If you drink several in a row do you find yourself fairly buzzed? That would suggest your measurements were way off but you brewed the beer sufficiently correctly. If you can polish off several in a row with not much of a buzz, you made some mistakes along the way.
 
jcfontario said:
I will ask an obvious question. You said that you just dumped the grain into the boiling water. Was the grain ground and if so, was it a fine grind or more coarse (larger particles of grain)?
Click to expand...
Grain was milled by the place I bought it. First time I've done it so not much to compare it to but while not a fine dust (there were some particles) I would say pretty fine. Pretty clear at this stage that I simply didn't grasp the imprortance of the mash at all, just boiled the hell out of it. Seems the likeliest reason for the eventual weak fermentation.
 
mashpaddled said:
If you drink several in a row do you find yourself fairly buzzed? That would suggest your measurements were way off but you brewed the beer sufficiently correctly. If you can polish off several in a row with not much of a buzz, you made some mistakes along the way.
Click to expand...
Haven't tried drinking shitloads of it quickly to see how I feel no 🤣 but pretty sure it's somewhere between 2-3%. Have drunk enough 3.5% beer to know the mild buzz you get from that and this is even weaker! No doubt I made some mistakes, but what the hell, you live and learn. Next time will be better. Still tastes good anyway!
 
Gerry Nobody said:
Yes, I'm guessing I handled the boil poorly. Need to do some reading on that aspect!
Click to expand...
Re-reading some of the posts here I'll at least give you an "E" for effort.

You seem to have jumped in to the brewing beer thing with little knowledge of the actual processes but with a lot of enthusiasm or gusto... as I think was the spiel of one famous commercial brewer in their TV advertising when I was a kid in the 60's.

The book or article by John Palmer that was linked will do a lot for your beer brewing knowledge and give you things to think about. But even some of it might be dated. Though you'll make good to great beer going by it.

Mash is the all important step in brewing beer, but there are many ways to go about it. But in general, for todays malts, a single mash temp of 150-154°F for 30 to 70 minutes will give you good to very good results.

You can mess up a lot of the boil and fermenting steps and still get a decent tasting beer with a decent ABV just as long as that mash was done at the right temps.

Hydrometer and thermometer are all you need. Refractometers are an instrument of the devil! :drunk: But if you really want one, I'll get over it!
 
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DBhomebrew said:
Not sure what you're angry about. Pretty sure we're talking beer.
Click to expand...

tell you the truth, i didn't realize this was the beginner sub forum...

@Gerry Nobody sorry for jumping in, i was rib jabing db, with the fact that there is sour mashes, and some distillers boil the mash to get a fuller distilate. :mug:
 
Gerry Nobody said:
No, just a modest hydrometer.
Click to expand...

what temp did you take the reading at? a reading of 1.051 on a hydro at say 150-160f
would be more like 1.070...
Gerry Nobody said:
Right, no clearly I didn't understand that about temperature control. I just thought boiling the grain for a specified amount of time was enough. Will have a read of that. Thanks!
Click to expand...

reminds me when i tried brewing with unmalted rye berries when i was kid, first getting into this! have fun with the learning! it's a great life hack to know brewing!

:mug:
 
bracconiere said:
what temp did you take the reading at? a reading of 1.051 on a hydro at say 150-160f
would be more like 1.070...
Click to expand...
Do people actually take hydrometer readings in wort that hot?

I thought that stuff holding the weights and sometimes other things in the hydrometer is wax. That high a temp will melt it and if you lay your hydrometer at an angle or on it's side right after taking a reading, then you've just messed up your hydrometer!

I don't take readings very often after the mash or boil unless I've cooled the sample below 80°F where the error won't be enough to make a big deal. Usually my OG taken just before pitch after all is cooled to 68°F is my first SG reading.
 
hotbeer said:
Do people actually take hydrometer readings in wort that hot?

I thought that stuff holding the weights and sometimes other things in the hydrometer is wax. That high a temp will melt it and if you lay your hydrometer at an angle or on it's side right after taking a reading, then you've just messed up your hydrometer!
Click to expand...


i do it all the time? (edit:: for correctness "!"...lol :mug:) to get my preboil gravity? never melted my hydros?
 
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bracconiere said:
i do it all the time? to get my preboil gravity? never melted my hydros?
Click to expand...
Maybe it's not wax in there then. Or at least it's not in yours.

Still, I haven't had anything I've needed to know when when wort is that hot that I can't easily let the sample cool in a room temp or cooler heavy sided kitchen sauce pan.
 
hotbeer said:
Maybe it's not wax in there then. Or at least it's not in yours.

Still, I haven't had anything I've needed to know when when wort is that hot that I can't easily let the sample cool in a room temp or cooler heavy sided kitchen sauce pan.
Click to expand...

i've had many, and it wouldn't mater if it melted, a hydrometer is an extact weight, with an exact volume...that's how it measure density. at least that's my belief?

and i drop a hydro in first runnings of my mash too! i don't really do a temp correction on that though, just keep mashing till it stops going up, like a fermentation FG not going down anymore...
 
bracconiere said:
i've had many, and it wouldn't mater if it melted, a hydrometer is an extact weight, with an exact volume...that's how it measure density. at least that's my belief?
Click to expand...
Sure it won't be an issue if you keep the hydrometer vertical and it cools to solidify the wax. However if laid on it's side or a large enough angle as in my statement, and the weights and wax cool on one side of the bulb, then the hydrometer may not float as perfectly vertical as it should in liquid.

And that will affect what you read on the scale and maybe how low it floats as all the weight will no longer be over the bulb.
 
hotbeer said:
Sure it won't be an issue if you keep the hydrometer vertical and it cools to solidify the wax. However if laid on it's side or a large enough angle as in my statement, and the weights and wax cool on one side of the bulb, then the hydrometer may not float as perfectly vertical as it should in liquid.

And that will affect what you read on the scale and maybe how low it floats as all the weight will no longer be over the bulb.
Click to expand...


i always lay it on it's side, very carfully, as to not have to add another casualty to the broken hydro thread....
 

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