Venting about Utah's Sharia State

[microbusbrewery]

Sorry for the long rant, but I'm pissed. As some of you know, Utah has some of the screwiest liquor laws in the nation. Here's a few I can think of off hand. Bottles for purchase must be 3.2 ABW/ 4.0 ABV or less to be sold in grocery stores or convenience stores. All alco-pops were removed from grocery stores a few years back because a Mormon legislator's daughter got a DUI after claiming she thought she was buying sparkling lemonade (I've seen them in stores again... Mike must have good lobbyists). Bottles greater than 3.2 are only available in state run liquor stores (room temp at best, not stored cold, not protected from heat or UV light) or state licensed brewery stores. No >3.2 beer on tap, but it's OK to have any ABV wine or hard cider on tap. No more than two tasters of beer in front of anyone at any given time, but wine flights are OK. If you want to have a tasting room at your brewery, you also have to open a kitchen that has the ability to prepare cooked food on site. In other words, if you want a tasting room, you also have to open a restaurant...not super friendly to brewery startups. Non-grandfathered restaurants have to install a Zion Curtain so children's minds aren't poisoned by the sight of a beer being poured from the tap. A bartender in a restaurant can't give you your beer across the bar, they have to walk around the bar and place it in front of you...on a coaster. You can't order a drink in a restaurant unless you've ordered food as well. In fact, they are not even supposed to take your drink order unless you have demonstrated an "intent to dine". At a bar, pub, restaurant, you can't get anything >3.2/4.0 on tap, but you can get any ABV in a bottle. A lot of times that means you have to order a bomber if you want >3.2 beer. You can't buy any alcohol in any store if someone in your party forgot their ID or someone under 21 that's with you isn't a member of your immediate family. The problem is all these laws are written by Mormons with the backing off Mormon Church leaders and they consider drinking a sin (at least since prohibition ended. Before that, not so much).

So the new one that's before the legislature right now is HB155 which lowers the legal limit from the standard .08 to .05. The bill sponsor keeps citing the fact that European countries and Japan have set a precedent for .05. While that may be true, these countries also have excellent public transportation; Utah's shuts down at midnight and they will kick you off the train even if you only want to go one more stop and the train is going by said stop (in order to head back to the depot). Oh, and they continue to stop at every station, even after they've kicked everyone off the train.

So if we adopt Europe's .05 limit, does that mean we'll follow suit and also lower the drinking age to 18, 16, or eliminate it altogether like they've done in Europe? Will we be able to have a neighborhood bar, pub, etc because they'll do away with the law preventing those types of establishments near churches and schools? If you've ever been to Utah, you know there is a Mormon Church on almost every corner so it kind of limits where you can get a drink.

The legislator that's sponsoring the bill is also flat out lying about how much one can drink in order to stay under the proposed limit. The stats he's quoting are essentially for someone that weighs about 285 pounds. F'ing ridiculous. The bill flew through the House and is before the Senate now. If you live in Utah, contact your state senator and urge them to vote against this bill. If you don't live in Utah, please do me a favor and contact a legislator or two and let them know you won't be risking the financial ruin of a .05 DUI by bringing your tourist dollars to Utah.

 

[catdaddy66]

At least you don't have mini bottles anymore!

I feel ya, my man. Seems kinda draconian but my state (SC) was quite similar though we have recently seen the most restrictive laws changed despite Baptist pressures to keep us in the middle ages.

 

[madscientist451]

At least you have great skiing!
But to add to your rant: The founding fathers never would have imagined that a government would be so tyrannical that it would limit what God provides.
If they thought that it would eventually happen, they would have included the right to make and sell alcohol in the Bill of Rights. The founding fathers of the USA were all enthusiastic consumers of beer, cider, wine and spirits, some owned commercial distilleries, and making beer and cider at home was considered a normal household chore.
Yeast occurs naturally, you don't have to do anything to get a beverage to ferment.
Grain, fruits and water are all provided by God for humans to utilize. Jesus himself was a winemaker, it says so in the scriptures.
So what ca you do? Basically not much, you aren't going to get a bunch of Mormons or any other religious people to change their mind about anything.
Just keep on brewing away at home, and enjoy what you can produce.

 

[nDub]

Weird. One of my favorite beers is made in Utah. Hop Notch for the win.

Maybe its time to get involved in the legislature? Kind of like Dogfish Head did in Delaware.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

This is a horrible comparison to sharia laws.

Sharia laws prohibit a thing, entirely, for everyone but then has selective sight depending on gender first, and then depth of pocket second.

Thus, if Utah has truly become a sharia law type state, then the solution is simple. Either you stop being a girl, or you tip your waiter/tender/clerk better.

 

[JonM]

Here in Wisconsin, we are on the opposite end of the spectrum. Some highlights:

A child of any age may drink in a bar with a parent or guardian.

They can hand out samples of beer, wine, AND liquor at grocery stores.

I can feed you liquor until you have vodka pouring out your ears. If you then get in your car and plow into a van full of nuns, orphans and puppies, it is 100% your fault and neither you nor the nuns, orphans nor puppies can sue me for over serving you or for letting you drive. There's even a Wisconsin Supreme Court case that says I can feed you booze AND offer to drive you home and then renege on the offer to drive you home. Still can't sue me if you drive yourself and cause an accident.

Alcohol sales can go from 8 am to midnight (although municipalities can restrict that.)

First offense DUI is a municipal ordinance violation (I.e., not a crime)

 

[rho2209]

So what's the situation with homebrewing? Are you limited to buying from internet sources only?

 

[stpug]

You know a lot about Utah's alcohol laws, are you getting into the brewery/restaurant business? How easy are liquor license to acquire? Most of those are pretty dumb laws for sure. Too bad you have such a prominent religious presence in your state's political system; that seems to be the driving force. Separation of church and state?

Aside from the obvious flight-of-samplers, or those times when I was hammered in my 20s, I can't ever think of a time when I needed more than two beers in front of me. I guess that means that triangle tests are out

As far as I know, and I may be wrong, it's my understanding that the .08 alcohol limit is just a cutoff from being "innocent until proven..." to "guilty until proven...". Below that number, your are innocent first; above that number and you are guilty first. Since our brains should never be compromised while driving, the lowering to .05 seems like it should help to discourage "buzzed driving" and seems fair from the sense that we don't want to take lives because we HAD to drive after drinking. Quality public transportation is a savior here; I guess Uber/Lyft are also good options.

To me, this somehow feels soooo small and unimportant compared to other happenings taking place across the Divided States of America. It's like going on a boat with two leaks: one the size of a nail, the other the size of a basketball. While plugging both is important to avoid sinking, one should demand primary attention and focus while just ensuring the other doesn't get bigger. I guess that's what you're driving at in regards to contacting senators.

 

[Br3w4u]

Sounds like Oklahoma. Our laws are starting to get better though. We can finally get "strong beer" in the grocery stores but not until next year and that's only if the liquor stores don't succeed in reapealing the new law. The best part is that our breweries can now sell beer in the tasting rooms.

 

[bleme]

Separation of church and state is a myth. It isn't in the Constitution or Amendments or Federal law ANYWHERE. All the Constitution says is that the Federal government can't require it's citizens to follow their version of religion (like the Church of England). It was actually designed so that each State could establish their own religion if they wanted to.

As a resident of California, I can understand your frustration with your State making ridiculous laws. I have seriously considered moving many times. Until then, I will continue to cast votes knowing that they will never count and share logic that I know will never be heard.

 

[TorMag]

Remember this is Merica, you can move.

 

[JonM]

I can't be the only homebrewer to have had this thought when visiting a state where you can't buy cold beer:

"Hmm ... I bet if I put ice water in my mash tun, I could cool beer down really fast. Even faster if I hook up my pump and recirculate the ice water. ... and I bet I could do it even faster if I add a scoop of this calcium chloride I just happen to have on hand ... "

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I can't be the only homebrewer to have had this thought when visiting a state where you can't buy cold beer:

"Hmm ... I bet if I put ice water in my mash tun, I could cool beer down really fast. Even faster if I hook up my pump and recirculate the ice water. ... and I bet I could do it even faster if I add a scoop of this calcium chloride I just happen to have on hand ... "

I can't think of one single instance where I was visiting another state and I remembered to bring a mash tun, pump, and calcium chloride.

I just put the beer in the freezer instead.

 

[GPP33]

Utah’s crazy laws are NOT religious based. The book of Mormon doesn’t say in its scripture “thou shalt not serve greater than 3.2 ABW beer on tap”. These laws were written by legislators who were voted in by their constituents. These laws were probably written this was because they felt it was in the best interest of the people of Utah. Sure, they were probably Mormon and their beliefs/morals were probably influenced their religion but this does not mean the laws are religious based.

Since you are not in the majority in your state I wish you the best of luck in getting these changed. It’s a shame Utah is how it is because there’s some amazing places in that state.

 

[JLump]

Utah’s crazy laws are NOT religious based. The book of Mormon doesn’t say in its scripture “thou shalt not serve greater than 3.2 ABW beer on tap”.

I see what you're saying but regardless of whatever is in their religious texts, laws like that are certainly based off religious beliefs. I mean how can you say they're not?

 

[max384]

I know I'm going to sound like a bigot with this post, but I'm just speaking from my own experience.

When I was deployed to Iraq, I was with a unit from Utah, the vast majority of them Mormon. They were rabid about their way of doing things, like ****ing vegans.

A few highlights:

-Being asked to move away from them while smoking... while we were right next to the ash tray in the designated smoking area

-The Utah First Sergeant shutting down our coffee fund because it discriminated against them since we didn't offer decaf options.

-Referred to each other as brother and sister constantly instead of their appropriate ranks... While on duty and while in uniform.

-Constant holier-than-thou judgmental passive-aggressive crap

I became friends with a guy from the Utah unit, but wasn't Mormon. The stories he told me were unbelievable. The non-Mormons weren't promoted on time, they were excluded from things... basically shunned. And this is in the U.S. military.

War was hell. Spending time with Mormons... Purgatory.

Utah’s crazy laws are NOT religious based. The book of Mormon doesn’t say in its scripture “thou shalt not serve greater than 3.2 ABW beer on tap”. These laws were written by legislators who were voted in by their constituents. These laws were probably written this was because they felt it was in the best interest of the people of Utah. Sure, they were probably Mormon and their beliefs/morals were probably influenced their religion but this does not mean the laws are religious based.

Since you are not in the majority in your state I wish you the best of luck in getting these changed. It’s a shame Utah is how it is because there’s some amazing places in that state.

Yes they are. You are absolutely 100% kidding yourself if you think they aren't.

 

[Murphys_Law]

I remember a few years ago I was in UT for business. One of my co-workers ordered a martini and the waitress asked if he'd ever been to UT before because...uh, the martini is WEAK. So he ordered a double thinking he could get a decent drink.

No can do!

He ordered a martini with a shot of vodka on the side.

No can do!

He ordered a glass of wine, finally.

It may have been the same trip...I went to a TGIF or something to eat one night and sat at the bar. I ordered a beer while I was looking at the menu and nothing looked good so I asked to pay my bill w/o ordering any food. I thought the bartender was going to call the ATF or something!!

 

[bleme]

I see what you're saying but regardless of whatever is in their religious texts, laws like that are certainly based off religious beliefs. I mean how can you say they're not?

As a libertarian I obviously don't agree with them, but there are many social reasons to limit alcohol consumption that have nothing to do with morality. Government thinks that if they can limit alcohol, then they can reduce drunk driving and thereby reduce auto fatalities. I think a major part of the problem is we have all these legislators who think they have to earn a paycheck and the only way to do that is to think up new laws.

My solution would be to eliminate paid legislators. Make it completely voluntary. They can all get together once a year to make a budget, then go back to their jobs. After 240 years, we have more laws than we need already.

 

[normonster]

Safe to say UT blows hard.

 

[McGarnigle]

Safe to say UT blows hard.

Yep. "Hook 'em Horns!" LOL, what losers.

 

[max384]

As a libertarian I obviously don't agree with them, but there are many social reasons to limit alcohol consumption that have nothing to do with morality. Government thinks that if they can limit alcohol, then they can reduce drunk driving and thereby reduce auto fatalities. I think a major part of the problem is we have all these legislators who think they have to earn a paycheck and the only way to do that is to think up new laws.

My solution would be to eliminate paid legislators. Make it completely voluntary. They can all get together once a year to make a budget, then go back to their jobs. After 240 years, we have more laws than we need already.

If you make it an unpaid position, only the wealthy can afford to do it. And like it or not, in a republic, we need representatives to represent us throughout the year. I like the idea, but it just wouldn't work unfortunately. And for the record, I'm libertarian too.



EDIT: Shoot. Sorry. Disregard. I thought this thread was in the political subforum, not the general beer discussion.

 

[ajdelange]

I know I'm going to sound like a bigot with this post, but I'm just speaking from my own experience.

When I was deployed to Iraq, I was with a unit from Utah, the vast majority of them Mormon. They were rabid about their way of doing things, like ****ing vegans.

As my old, and sometime Mormon, colleague used to say:

"Mormons are like manure. Spread thin they can do a lot of good but if piled too deep they stink."

 

[Saxon]

As my old, and sometime Mormon, colleague used to say:

"Mormons are like manure. Spread thin they can do a lot of good but if piled too deep they stink."

Yup, it's when the groupthink takes hold that it becomes a problem. Friends with several Mormons that are lovely people, but the alcohol laws here are draconian, and yes they are absolutely why we have them. The line is usually that they are trying to prevent underage drinking and other forms of alcohol abuse but if you dig deep enough that never holds up. You can't get a draft in anything over 4% ABV, but they're totally ok selling you bottle after bottle of 9%. It's all just a smokescreen to get people to pay exorbitant taxes at the state liquor stores.

So what's the situation with homebrewing? Are you limited to buying from internet sources only?

There's not too many restrictions on it here (the contrast to restrictions on alcohol in general is actually what got me into brewing), but they were notably one of the last states to legalize it. Individuals are limited to 100 gallons a year and households 200 gallons -- how they ever plan to enforce that is beyond me. No restriction on ABV or anything, although distilling is of course not permitted. It's questionable whether or not you can keg -- filled kegs are not legal in Utah but they sell kegging kits and supplies at the LHBS, so who knows. And yes, there are three LHBS servicing the greater Salt Lake - Ogden area that I know of, and so far I've not had any issue shipping supplies in either.

Basically if you keep to yourself and don't try to sell your brew you can do whatever you want :rockin:

 

[GPP33]

I see what you're saying but regardless of whatever is in their religious texts, laws like that are certainly based off religious beliefs. I mean how can you say they're not?

Yes they are. You are absolutely 100% kidding yourself if you think they aren't.

Just about every law reflects the morals/beliefs/desires/opinion of importance of the legislator who drafted it. They are passionate about something, it's generally something their constituents are passionate about, so they take the time to draft up a new bill and debate it through to a law. Just like you and I their morals/beliefs/desires/opinion of importance are influenced by just about everything that has happened to them. Mormons tend to have a general opinion on consumption of certain things and feel it's in the publics best interest to limit access to them. IMO that doesn't make it a Mormon law, it makes it a law that is reflective of what the legislator and their constituents want. They just happen to be Mormon so you get to live with what mormons want. Now if they don't believe it's in the publics best interest but the church says to do it then it's a religious law.

I know I'm going to sound like a bigot with this post, but I'm just speaking from my own experience.

I have a good one. Wife and I were driving through beaver Ut. She's about 7 months pregnant, rain turned to ice in beaver, cars are sliding all over the place and I-70 gains altitude in a rather deserted area. It's getting late so we decide to call it a night. Every hotel in town is sold out, the last one we go to the nice lady says "I'm sorry, we're all booked." As we're about to walk out she says "wait, what religion are you?". I was so pissed that I didn't think quick enough to lie and say "well Mormon of course". Spent the night in the car in the closed KOA. Most mormons are genuenally great people, just like every group though there are some bad apples.

 

[passedpawn]

Alrighty, you guys know that if this gets to be about religion or politics, I'm putting it in the debate forum. The human condition, as it is today, requires sequestration of these subjects.

 

[ajdelange]

.. the nice lady says "I'm sorry, we're all booked." As we're about to walk out she says "wait, what religion are you?". I was so pissed that I didn't think quick enough to lie and say "well Mormon of course".

Don't beat yourself up. She probably would have asked to see your magic underwear.

 

[microbusbrewery]

This is a horrible comparison to sharia laws.

Sharia laws prohibit a thing, entirely, for everyone but then has selective sight depending on gender first, and then depth of pocket second.

Thus, if Utah has truly become a sharia law type state, then the solution is simple. Either you stop being a girl, or you tip your waiter/tender/clerk better.

Ha, OK Gila, comparing it to Sharia law was probably a bit of an exaggeration. I mean, I haven't been threatened with stoning for wanting to get a >3.2 beer on tap. I meant it more along the lines of the dominant church's teachings and practices are being forced on everyone. While I realize that our country was founded by Christians and many state and federal laws are tied to Christian beliefs, too many of the laws in Utah are directly tied to the beliefs and practices of a specific religion, the LDS Church.

More examples of problems. Any time the church doesn't agree with a proposed bill in the state, they will come out and comment on it, and the bill will inevitably die in committee. For example, the Zion Curtain is a wall that must be built in restaurants so that children can't see drinks being prepared, beers being poured, etc. The thought is by being in sight of children, it will "glamorize" alcohol and the children will turn to underage drinking. The is zero data supports this notion and I would argue it's actually detrimental to completely shield children compared to teaching them so they're informed and can deal with challenges in life and make good decisions. They've been trying to do away with this law for the past four years because even the majority of Mormons think the wall is pointless and weird. Every time it's come up, the church has released a statement saying they think the current laws are fine, that there's no need to change them, and then the bill dies in committee.

Another example, medical marijuana. My disclaimer, I've never used any illegal drug in my life and I have been very skeptical of the medical benefits of marijuana. I know once you've legalized something, it's really hard to make it illegal again (prohibition anyone?). I've had several friends that ended up getting addicted to pretty bad stuff that almost ruined their lives (e.g. cocaine, heroin) and for all of them, their recreational drug use started with marijuana. So safe to say, I had a pretty cautious attitude about it. But, I'm to the point where it's pretty hard to ignore the medical benefits of it. It's pretty obvious that in many cases, marijuana is a much better alternative to other treatments and medications, some of which can have pretty bad side effects not to mention very addictive. I know that was a long setup, but this past year a Mormon legislator (Mark Madsen) was drafting a bill to liberalize the use of medical marijuana and the church released a statement opposing the bill. He came out and admitted his bill was probably dead because the church had publicly opposed it so he knew the other Mormon Senators and Representatives wouldn't go against the church. That's where I have a problem, the elected representatives are supposed to represent the people, not the church. Even when the majority of the population support change, if the church doesn't, the Lawmakers will support the church, not the desire of the people.

So you probably say, stop electing Mormon Lawmakers. I think that will change soon, at least in the larger cities, but so far that's been a challenge. Even though statewide only 63%* of residents are Mormon, 88% of the legislature is Mormon. Source for these stats, http://www.sltrib.com/home/4663941-155/is-utah-legislature-representative-of-the
*That 63% is debatable because they count you as Mormon even if you are inactive and haven't been to church in years. For example, I was raised LDS, but I haven't formally asked for my name to be removed from church records, so even though I haven't gone to church this millennium, they consider me part of the 63%.

Sorry for the novel and kind of deviating from beer-related topics.

 

[stpug]

I've had several friends that ended up getting addicted to pretty bad stuff that almost ruined their lives (e.g. cocaine, heroin) and for all of them, their recreational drug use started with marijuana.

I highly doubt this statement. I strongly suspect their "recreational drug use" started with nicotine and/or alcohol. These days it tends to be the various assortment of drugs found in pharmaceutical pills.

 

[microbusbrewery]

Alrighty, you guys know that if this gets to be about religion or politics, I'm putting it in the debate forum. The human condition, as it is today, requires sequestration of these subjects.

Sorry passedpawn, I should have put it there

 

[microbusbrewery]

As my old, and sometime Mormon, colleague used to say:

"Mormons are like manure. Spread thin they can do a lot of good but if piled too deep they stink."

That is absolutely hilarious

 

[microbusbrewery]

I have a good one. Wife and I were driving through beaver Ut. She's about 7 months pregnant, rain turned to ice in beaver, cars are sliding all over the place and I-70 gains altitude in a rather deserted area. It's getting late so we decide to call it a night. Every hotel in town is sold out, the last one we go to the nice lady says "I'm sorry, we're all booked." As we're about to walk out she says "wait, what religion are you?". I was so pissed that I didn't think quick enough to lie and say "well Mormon of course". Spent the night in the car in the closed KOA. Most mormons are genuenally great people, just like every group though there are some bad apples.

So you're saying there was no room in the inn?

 

[GPP33]

So you're saying there was no room in the inn?

I have a feeling there were a couple VIP rooms left.

 

[GPP33]

Ha, OK Gila, comparing it to Sharia law was probably a bit of an exaggeration. I mean, I haven't been threatened with stoning for wanting to get a >3.2 beer on tap. I meant it more along the lines of the dominant church's teachings and practices are being forced on everyone. While I realize that our country was founded by Christians and many state and federal laws are tied to Christian beliefs, too many of the laws in Utah are directly tied to the beliefs and practices of a specific religion, the LDS Church.

More examples of problems. Any time the church doesn't agree with a proposed bill in the state, they will come out and comment on it, and the bill will inevitably die in committee. For example, the Zion Curtain is a wall that must be built in restaurants so that children can't see drinks being prepared, beers being poured, etc. The thought is by being in sight of children, it will "glamorize" alcohol and the children will turn to underage drinking. The is zero data supports this notion and I would argue it's actually detrimental to completely shield children compared to teaching them so they're informed and can deal with challenges in life and make good decisions. They've been trying to do away with this law for the past four years because even the majority of Mormons think the wall is pointless and weird. Every time it's come up, the church has released a statement saying they think the current laws are fine, that there's no need to change them, and then the bill dies in committee.

Another example, medical marijuana. My disclaimer, I've never used any illegal drug in my life and I have been very skeptical of the medical benefits of marijuana. I know once you've legalized something, it's really hard to make it illegal again (prohibition anyone?). I've had several friends that ended up getting addicted to pretty bad stuff that almost ruined their lives (e.g. cocaine, heroin) and for all of them, their recreational drug use started with marijuana. So safe to say, I had a pretty cautious attitude about it. But, I'm to the point where it's pretty hard to ignore the medical benefits of it. It's pretty obvious that in many cases, marijuana is a much better alternative to other treatments and medications, some of which can have pretty bad side effects not to mention very addictive. I know that was a long setup, but this past year a Mormon legislator (Mark Madsen) was drafting a bill to liberalize the use of medical marijuana and the church released a statement opposing the bill. He came out and admitted his bill was probably dead because the church had publicly opposed it so he knew the other Mormon Senators and Representatives wouldn't go against the church. That's where I have a problem, the elected representatives are supposed to represent the people, not the church. Even when the majority of the population support change, if the church doesn't, the Lawmakers will support the church, not the desire of the people.

So you probably say, stop electing Mormon Lawmakers. I think that will change soon, at least in the larger cities, but so far that's been a challenge. Even though statewide only 63%* of residents are Mormon, 88% of the legislature is Mormon. Source for these stats, http://www.sltrib.com/home/4663941-155/is-utah-legislature-representative-of-the
*That 63% is debatable because they count you as Mormon even if you are inactive and haven't been to church in years. For example, I was raised LDS, but I haven't formally asked for my name to be removed from church records, so even though I haven't gone to church this millennium, they consider me part of the 63%.

Sorry for the novel and kind of deviating from beer-related topics.

63% is lower than I thought. Still the majority though.

 

[microbusbrewery]

I highly doubt this statement. I strongly suspect their "recreational drug use" started with nicotine and/or alcohol. These days it tends to be the various assortment of drugs found in pharmaceutical pills.

The more I think about it, you are correct, they did start with underage drinking. Marijuana was the first "illegal" drug they used, and by illegal, I mean not sold in stores (this was back in the 80's). Technically the alcohol would have been illegal since they were underage.

 

[bkboiler]

have you seen the PBS documentary "Prohibition"? It's on Netflix right now. Has some crazy facts about how many farmers used to drink naturally fermented beer morning, noon and night (~2% ABV). Some of our forefathers were known to start their day with a tankard of cider or glass of wine. When the distillation process became more prevalent, people began to substitute equal volumes of whiskey. Many towns actually had bells that would clang several times daily to notify people of "grog breaks" during working hours. It was on this fertile ground of drunk townspeople that the temperance movement took root.
Sounds like in Utah, somebody's been watering those "roots" for the last 100 years. Everywhere else took a stumpgrinder to it...

 

[Thorsbrew]

I've seen enough absurdity in my time (not to get political but i'll just refer to the events surrounding trumps inauguration) i'm sort of jaded to the insanity.

But there's a reason i dont live in places like california and as i hear it now, utah. Hell if i had my way i would not live on earth haha.

Here in Wisconsin, we are on the opposite end of the spectrum. Some highlights:

A child of any age may drink in a bar with a parent or guardian.

They can hand out samples of beer, wine, AND liquor at grocery stores.

I can feed you liquor until you have vodka pouring out your ears. If you then get in your car and plow into a van full of nuns, orphans and puppies, it is 100% your fault and neither you nor the nuns, orphans nor puppies can sue me for over serving you or for letting you drive. There's even a Wisconsin Supreme Court case that says I can feed you booze AND offer to drive you home and then renege on the offer to drive you home. Still can't sue me if you drive yourself and cause an accident.

Alcohol sales can go from 8 am to midnight (although municipalities can restrict that.)

First offense DUI is a municipal ordinance violation (I.e., not a crime)

I live in NC but wisconsin is a place i've thought would be nice to move to. Not milwaukee though

 

[Thorsbrew]

Another example, medical marijuana. My disclaimer, I've never used any illegal drug in my life and I have been very skeptical of the medical benefits of marijuana. I know once you've legalized something, it's really hard to make it illegal again (prohibition anyone?). I've had several friends that ended up getting addicted to pretty bad stuff that almost ruined their lives (e.g. cocaine, heroin) and for all of them, their recreational drug use started with marijuana. So safe to say, I had a pretty cautious attitude about it. But, I'm to the point where it's pretty hard to ignore the medical benefits of it. It's pretty obvious that in many cases, marijuana is a much better alternative to other treatments and medications, some of which can have pretty bad side effects not to mention very addictive. I know that was a long setup, but this past year a Mormon legislator (Mark Madsen) was drafting a bill to liberalize the use of medical marijuana and the church released a statement opposing the bill. He came out and admitted his bill was probably dead because the church had publicly opposed it so he knew the other Mormon Senators and Representatives wouldn't go against the church. That's where I have a problem, the elected representatives are supposed to represent the people, not the church. Even when the majority of the population support change, if the church doesn't, the Lawmakers will support the church, not the desire of the people

From personal experience i have to doubt this stereotype of marijuana being a stepping stone drug.

In my teens and early 20's i smoked pot fairly often with friends and would get drunk with them as well. Yet i never did any other drugs (if you can even call marijuana that).

Now i havnt had any marijuana in many years and i never get drunk anymore.

I also started smoking at an early age and smoked for 8-9 years. When i decided not to smoke anymore because it was just unhealthy and a waste of money i just stopped, just like that, no issues. Been many years since that as well.

Then again perhaps im the exception? After all before i quit smoking for good i quit instantly then took it back up again few months later just to prove to everyone that says quitting is such a huge mountain to overtake that it really isnt very difficult, its just simple mind control. And it wasnt. Nor was any of the other stuff.

 

[jonny24]

"Almost all of cocaine, heroin, and meth users started with marijuana as their first drug. Therefore marijuana should be illegal."

"Almost all rapists started with kissing as their first sexual encounter. Therefore kissing should be illegal."

Just something I heard someone say. How many pot smokers go on to never do anything else?

Back on topic, not going to Utah anytime soon. Wisconsin is sounding a bit better.

Feel lucky you even have booze in grocery stores. We just got that in Ontario this year.

 

[filthyastronaut]

This is why when I go to Utah from my beautiful home state of Colorado for recreation, I smuggle in plenty of Colorado beer.

 

[brewbama]

...they were notably one of the last states to legalize it. Individuals are limited to 100 gallons a year and households 200 gallons -- how they ever plan to enforce that is beyond me. No restriction on ABV or anything, although distilling is of course not permitted...

...uh... I live in AL. We were only beat by our progressive neighbors - MS - as the last state to make homebrew legal. ...but we can get a beer from a bartender we can see.