Using a Blended Yeast over Several Generations

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Premnasbiaculeatus

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Hello, a few months ago an acquaintance of mine who is a professional brewer gave me a quart of slurry from a beer he had brewed. The beer was a light colored unfiltered Pale Ale that was under-pitched with 'Conan' and then finished off with 'Chico' (WLP001). It was one of the most fantastic brews I've ever had.

I brewed 15 gallons of my own light colored IPA and direct pitched the entire Jar, I got slow steady (almost sluggish) attenuation, that lasted 10ish days or so, and ended up with 63% actual attenuation. Regardless, the beer tasted amazing, notes of peach and fruitiness, lots of esters, but the best possible esters... It was also surprisingly well balanced and not too sweet, probably because I used quite a lot of hops on it.

Subsequently, I brewed another 15 gallons of a strong Belgian dark recipe and racked it on top of the prior beers yeast cake. This time fermentation was vigorous and I had Krausen flowing into the blow-off within minutes and it finished off at 72.4% attenuation. This was a high gravity brew and although I was fairly certain this was completely the wrong yeast for the style, I had one friend tell me that they could not distinguish my brew from Chimay (my friends are ignorant but kind).

After that I jarred another quart of slurry and kept it in my downstairs fridge for about a month or so. Last Thursday I made an 8 liter starter with it and pitched it into a 15 gallon batch of IPA Saturday morning. This times it's off gassing like a freight train; started within minutes and is still bubbling like mad four days later, although not very foamy at all this time (could be due to a really long 148-151 degree alpha rest during the mash) my blow-off tube is crystal clear and my starsan water is milky white.

Any educated guesses as to what this yeast has become? At this point would one wager that it's completely 001? Is it still some mixture of 001 and Conan? Could it maybe even be all or mostly Conan...? I'm a low tech guy, and I think I would be betraying this guys confidence if I sent it to a lab. Anyone here experienced with these two yeasts willing to make an anecdotal estimate as to what I'm playing with at this point?
 
*bump* Too much unnecessary information?Sorry... How about just these three questions:

Which yeast is more likely to take over after multiple generations, Conan or Chico? (probably Chico right?)

How many generations will it be until only one strain is left?

Is it possible at a 4th generation batch that there are still two separate yeast strains multiplying in my beer?
 
*bump* Too much unnecessary information?Sorry... How about just these three questions:

Which yeast is more likely to take over after multiple generations, Conan or Chico? (probably Chico right?)

How many generations will it be until only one strain is left?

Is it possible at a 4th generation batch that there are still two separate yeast strains multiplying in my beer?

Chris White of White Labs has done presentations on this (or perhaps it was other White Labs staff).. I think at least one was at the NHC/Homebrew con. If you are an AHA member, you can find the audio and slides. If not, you might find at least the slides online somewhere.
 
I don't have answers for your questions. But I'm just confused why they would blend such neutral yeasts. Was it a purposeful decision? If so, did they do it because of attenuation issues once upon a time and just like the results so they continued the technique?
 
Chris White of White Labs has done presentations on this (or perhaps it was other White Labs staff).. I think at least one was at the NHC/Homebrew con. If you are an AHA member, you can find the audio and slides. If not, you might find at least the slides online somewhere.

Thanks for the info, Ill try to find the slides online. Do you remember by any chance what the title of the presentation was or what it sounded like?





I don't have answers for your questions. But I'm just confused why they would blend such neutral yeasts. Was it a purposeful decision? If so, did they do it because of attenuation issues once upon a time and just like the results so they continued the technique?

Apparently Alchemist makes heady topper this way, and many conan enthusiasts have copied the technique. If you intentionally under pitch Conan it gets extra fruity and peachy, then they use 001 as the finisher.
 
I believe Conan can have attenuation issues sometimes. Chico will clean up what Conan doesn't.
 
You will see a shift from the original batch ratio but I don't think it would ever become just one yeast. Both of those yeast should have similar growth rates and I'd assume that you'll still be close to your original ratio.

We made three beers from the same wort a few months ago. 5 gallons got 001 5 got Conan from omega. The last one got Conan and 001. Hands down the single yeast Conan was the clear cut winner. Nice fruity flavors classic neipa cloudiness basically every thing you'd want from that style.

The blend was a good beer and finished a bit drier. The 001 was boring.

You can play with different ratio's but on the second or third generation you'll see some type of shift where one takes over. It'd be hard to tell the balance unless you can identify the actual cells and plate them out for a count.
 
Awesome, thanks for sharing. I was also able to find it on the Homebrewers Association website when I google "Mixing Yeast Chris from Whitelabs", but like you mentioned it was Kara Taylor not Chris White. Good read though, it looks like they blended 001 and 5019, and 5019 completely (just mostly actually) took over after 5 generations. When they plated the mixed strain the difference in dye uptake was visually noticeable, with the more numerous colonies being 5019, and the less abundant ones being 001. With my yeast being a combo of 001 and conan which do you think will be the dominant? Should I assume the yeast with the higher attenuation will be more prolific after several generations? Also will Chico and Conan uptake dye differently if I plated a sample? Would I need to do SDS-PAGE on different colonies to tell which are which?

I believe Conan can have attenuation issues sometimes. Chico will clean up what Conan doesn't.
I've read this also. Should I assume that the more attenuative yeast (Chico / WLP001) will be more prolific after multiple generations?

You will see a shift from the original batch ratio but I don't think it would ever become just one yeast. Both of those yeast should have similar growth rates and I'd assume that you'll still be close to your original ratio.

We made three beers from the same wort a few months ago. 5 gallons got 001 5 got Conan from omega. The last one got Conan and 001. Hands down the single yeast Conan was the clear cut winner. Nice fruity flavors classic neipa cloudiness basically every thing you'd want from that style.

The blend was a good beer and finished a bit drier. The 001 was boring.

You can play with different ratio's but on the second or third generation you'll see some type of shift where one takes over. It'd be hard to tell the balance unless you can identify the actual cells and plate them out for a count.

I think I'm going to plate out a sample when I keg this batch, and try to separate the two strains. Do you think there will a different level of dye uptake between the two strains? Which yeast would you expect to have the most numerous colonies? Should it be 001, because it's more attenuative? Is bromothymol blue the correct dye to use in my agar? It's been a long time since I've done anything close to this...
 
I've read this also. Should I assume that the more attenuative yeast (Chico / WLP001) will be more prolific after multiple generations?

I haven't used the combo so I couldn't say. Over many generations, it might. Your taste buds will let you know when the repitch has run is course. I've never used any combo more than three times, including mixed fermentations.
 
Awesome, thanks for sharing. I was also able to find it on the Homebrewers Association website when I google "Mixing Yeast Chris from Whitelabs", but like you mentioned it was Kara Taylor not Chris White. Good read though, it looks like they blended 001 and 5019, and 5019 completely (just mostly actually) took over after 5 generations. When they plated the mixed strain the difference in dye uptake was visually noticeable, with the more numerous colonies being 5019, and the less abundant ones being 001. With my yeast being a combo of 001 and conan which do you think will be the dominant? Should I assume the yeast with the higher attenuation will be more prolific after several generations? Also will Chico and Conan uptake dye differently if I plated a sample? Would I need to do SDS-PAGE on different colonies to tell which are which?





I've read this also. Should I assume that the more attenuative yeast (Chico / WLP001) will be more prolific after multiple generations?







I think I'm going to plate out a sample when I keg this batch, and try to separate the two strains. Do you think there will a different level of dye uptake between the two strains? Which yeast would you expect to have the most numerous colonies? Should it be 001, because it's more attenuative? Is bromothymol blue the correct dye to use in my agar? It's been a long time since I've done anything close to this...


I'd assume the more flocculant yeast would make up a larger percentage of your slurry.

I don't know if you'd see a different level of uptake from the strains. I'd give white labs or bootleg biology a call and see if they can help you identify the strains.
 
I'd assume the more flocculant yeast would make up a larger percentage of your slurry.

I don't know if you'd see a different level of uptake from the strains. I'd give white labs or bootleg biology a call and see if they can help you identify the strains.

Thanks! I might do that. As far as flocculation goes I think Chico is rated as medium, and Conan is medium-low. I'm thinking if I want to brew with conan again I might as well just buy the 'Vermont ale' from yeast bay. It would be a lot easier than messing with dye and agar plates.
 
I've had great success with omega dipa yeast. You may want to give it a shot if you can find it. I'm north of chicago and my buddy at the lhbs live a few blocks away from Omega so we get it super fresh.
 
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