using a 2l flask

[attyindaburgh]

So I am going to use a liquid yeast and starter for the first time. I am planning on a wheat beer using a kolsh yeast (wlp 029). I ran the numbers and am concerned about using the flask. It says to make 2liters, and I am using a stir plate, but what about the krausen? If I have a big krausen, I am also going to have a big mess. Do you get a krausen when using a stir plate?

 

[NervousDad]

You can use fermcap, which will keep the krausen down. You can also make a small starter and use 2 vials of yeast.

 

[jmendez29]

Of all the times I've used my stir plate, I've never had a significant krauzen on my starter. I think because of the constant motion in the wort, it dissolves it back in as soon as it formed. That's not to say it won't happen, but it just never did with me. I had a short layer of foam, maybe a quarter inch, but that's about all.

 

[attyindaburgh]

I have fermcap, so I can use that. I also was planning on doing the boil in a separate pot so that I won't have to worry about boilover. I was planning on starting it tonight and hope to have it ready to decant and use Sunday. Another thing that I didn't mention is that I calculated for enough of yeast so that I can bank some to use later.

 

[flars]

You can also make smaller two step starters to equal the single two liter starter. The Brewers Fiend calculator, and others, offer the calculations for doing this.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

 

[attyindaburgh]

I can also do a multi step, just not sure if I have enough time. Thoughts?

 

[flars]

Plan for 24 hours on the stir plate for each step. 24 to 36 hours in between, for chilling, to drop the yeast to decant the spent wort.
Chilling time will be less for highly flocculant yeasts.

 

[helterscelter]

So I am going to use a liquid yeast and starter for the first time. I am planning on a wheat beer using a kolsh yeast (wlp 029). I ran the numbers and am concerned about using the flask. It says to make 2liters, and I am using a stir plate, but what about the krausen? If I have a big krausen, I am also going to have a big mess. Do you get a krausen when using a stir plate?

The amount of krausen you get from your starter and whether or not it makes a mess, largely depends on the strength of your starter and the yeast itself. I have had good luck with not having a large mess so far. most of the time the stirring from the plate has kept the krausen under control. recently, however, I built a starter for wlp545 belgian strong ale, and ended up with quite a mess despite the stirplate.


I've not used kolsh yet so I can't give you any insight there. (maybe make sure you put your stirplate on an old towel to keep messes to a minimum?)

 

[Thanks_Yeasties]

Have a 2l flask on order so haven't tried anything like this, but could you use a bung and a blow-off tube on it?

Might be overkill for a starter, and look silly but I despise unnecessary cleaning.

 

[SpeedYellow]

I've had a couple (sigh.) blowoffs with my 2L flask + stirplate, so now my policy is no more than 1.5L of wort in it. Anything bigger goes in a 1-gal growler, which works fine on a stirplate (and cheap too -- $5 at LHBS).

 

[Natdavis777]

Ive had a few messes with my starters, so I typically keep the ending volume at 1.6-1.8L. I too, use Brewers Friend for my starter info and it has served me well thus far.

 

[m00ps]

agreed, I max out at 1.6L in my 2L flasks which seems to work alright for most 5gal batches that arent too high OG. If needed, I start with 1.6L and split them off into 2 separate starters and add more chilled DME wort a day in

 

[IslandLizard]

I have fermcap, so I can use that. I also was planning on doing the boil in a separate pot so that I won't have to worry about boilover. I was planning on starting it tonight and hope to have it ready to decant and use Sunday. Another thing that I didn't mention is that I calculated for enough of yeast so that I can bank some to use later.

Good idea!
I always boil in a pot, never in a flask. Add all your yeast nutrients too. One drop of fermcap prevents boil overs and excessive foaming.

On a stir plate 1.6l is about the max for a 2l flask. That should give you plenty of cells in a single step if the vial you've got is still fairly potent.

 

[brewprint]

Here's my take on this.

First, the only time that I get a significant krausen is when I've used the yeast multiple times over and over. I do 1 liter to 1.25 liter starters usually once a week and I get major foam. It doesn't start to really happen until the 4th or 5th go around though.

Second, I can't imagine a wheat beer needing that large of a starter. What is the SG? I've been brewing a while now and I scrapped the yeast calculators. They are totally based on conjecture and theory from other brewers. The ONLY advantage to making such a large starter is to get fermentation going quickly to increase yeast population fast to reduce the possibility of infection.

Do yourself a favor and forget the fermcap and make a 1.25 liter starter, harvest a pint, and save the rest for the next brew.

 

[Gavin C]

So I am going to use a liquid yeast and starter for the first time. I am planning on a wheat beer using a kolsh yeast (wlp 029). I ran the numbers and am concerned about using the flask. It says to make 2liters, and I am using a stir plate, but what about the krausen? If I have a big krausen, I am also going to have a big mess. Do you get a krausen when using a stir plate?

There is quite a bit of conflicting data when it comes to yeast. That is, at least in part, due to the myriad of variables involved in yeast storage, harvest, propagation etc.

A great website for learning more and one with a relatively new starter calculatr can be found at Woodlandbrew.

This has got to be one of the best blogs out there related to yeast. Solid evidence based science seems to be at its core. I for one am a firm believer in using whatever science there is to support targeting a desired pitch rate. Some evidentiary support beats none in my book, but each to their own of course.

I recently started making lagers so bought a 5L Erlenmyer flask but a gallon growler if you have one would work if it has a flat bottom. Not as well as a flask perhaps but should eradicate your concerns.

I have done a 1.75L starter in a 2L flask without incident. A good stirring minimizes most but not all of the krausen.

Fermcap-S is a great hassle avoider when it comes to starters. I boil them in the flask for 15 mins with the stir bar. 1 drop of Termcap-S means I can get it boiling, lower the flame and keep it there without worry of a mess. I think it may also reduce krausen but I am not sure. Stirring has a sufficiently reducing effect that I have not noticed a difference.

 

[jbaysurfer]

A single drop of fermcap will fend off any blowovers. I usually make 1.8L starters in my 2L flask. The difference in cell count is not going to be enough for you to notice any difference in fermentation in a 5G batch of beer. Don't overthink it. You definitely don't need to step it up over this concern.

If you're doing a lager and need a 3L starter, stepping up is going to be mandatory, but not for a 2L starter in a 2L flask. Just make a little less.

 

[attyindaburgh]

The yeast in white labs kolsch 0029. The starting gravity is 1.05. The target pitch rate is what I wasn't sure about. .75 miles per ml for an ale or 1.5 million for a lager. I went in between at 1million. If I go for
75, then I need less then 2liters.

 

[brewprint]

The yeast in white labs kolsch 0029. The starting gravity is 1.05. The target pitch rate is what I wasn't sure about. .75 miles per ml for an ale or 1.5 million for a lager. I went in between at 1million. If I go for
75, then I need less then 2liters.

I just did the HBT American wheat with the same yeast and same OG. I did my typical 'underpitching' and the beer is fantastic.

 

[attyindaburgh]

I am using the recipe from Thunderworm. Sounds like the same one.

 

[attyindaburgh]

So I decided to go with a two step starter afterall. Everything went smoothly although I did not realize how much dme foams up! Bigger pot next time, came close to disaster a couple of times.

 

[brew_darrymore]

I just did the HBT American wheat with the same yeast and same OG. I did my typical 'underpitching' and the beer is fantastic.

By what percentage do you typically underpitch?

 

[brewprint]

By what percentage do you typically underpitch?

I couldn't tell you for sure. It all depends on the brew and the calculator. I use the standard 1-1.25L starter and throw just about a pint mason jar's worth into the mason jar. The rest goes in the brew.

IMO another reason why yeast starter calculator logic is flawed is because we never really know how many cells that we're starting with unless we get a brand new smack pack/vial fresh and know exactly how it was handled. Unless someone can do a cell count somehow.

 

[Natdavis777]

I couldn't tell you for sure. It all depends on the brew and the calculator. I use the standard 1-1.25L starter and throw just about a pint mason jar's worth into the mason jar. The rest goes in the brew.

IMO another reason why yeast starter calculator logic is flawed is because we never really know how many cells that we're starting with unless we get a brand new smack pack/vial fresh and know exactly how it was handled. Unless someone can do a cell count somehow.

I believe Brulosophy has a write up on the same method of saving some yeast in a mason jar and using it on the next starter batch. Not a bad idea to stretch the dollar.

As for determining how much yeast we harvest, the only true way to know is to break out the microscope. But there is literature out there to help guide as to help estimate the concentration in your slurry. Both Wyeast and Mr Malty provide some insight, as a few other sources. Most range from 1-5billion cells per mL, in a thick slurry. I err on the side of caution and use 1.2billion cells as my value, so I will overpitch if anything. Most of my freshly harvested jars have 60-70mL of compacted yeast, so I can estimate I have 75billion-84billion cells for my starters, or equivelent to a few week old smack pack.

 

[brewprint]

There was a thread on here from Brulosopher which is where I first read it. It's super cheap as you make more. Not only that but I don't need to take time and go to the LHBS. Yeast on hand is very nice. Of course if you're harvesting from fermented beer you're doing the same thing.

 

[jbaysurfer]

I couldn't tell you for sure. It all depends on the brew and the calculator. I use the standard 1-1.25L starter and throw just about a pint mason jar's worth into the mason jar. The rest goes in the brew.

IMO another reason why yeast starter calculator logic is flawed is because we never really know how many cells that we're starting with unless we get a brand new smack pack/vial fresh and know exactly how it was handled. Unless someone can do a cell count somehow.

I'm not sure if you're promoting underpitching or guessing here. In some cases I like the flavors underpitching brings, but I don't think there's much debate about the idea that there IS such a thing as a proper pitch rate.

The calculators aren't perfect, but they're a lot closer than guesswork IMHO.

 

[Natdavis777]

I hear you on having yeast on hand
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1432686129.230399.jpg

 

[brewprint]

I'm not sure if you're promoting underpitching or guessing here. In some cases I like the flavors underpitching brings, but I don't think there's much debate about the idea that there IS such a thing as a proper pitch rate.

The calculators aren't perfect, but they're a lot closer than guesswork IMHO.

There could be such a thing as proper pitch rate but I doubt it. If there was there would be a number set in stone and not 10 different calculators.

I assure you that off flavors in my brews are few to none. I had a brown ale that had a green apple taste once from some British ale. I pitched the same I always do but 2 gallons less of beer. Maybe a month wasn't long enough for it to set or maybe I fermented too low. I don't know but the rest have had nothing like that and I brew about once a week.

 

[jbaysurfer]

There could be such a thing as proper pitch rate but I doubt it. If there was there would be a number set in stone and not 10 different calculators.

I assure you that off flavors in my brews are few to none. I had a brown ale that had a green apple taste once from some British ale. I pitched the same I always do but 2 gallons less of beer. Maybe a month wasn't long enough for it to set or maybe I fermented too low. I don't know but the rest have had nothing like that and I brew about once a week.

Or maybe you overpitched it.

Edit: if for some reason frequency of brewing is relevant you can count my brews below...I'm not sure that it is though.

 

[brewprint]

Frequency doesn't really matter but when one brews they gain experience.

It's possible I overpitched but I doubt that also.

 

[attyindaburgh]

Next step I will use some firmcap. This is around 7 hours after pitching. I ltr of water, 100 grams of dme and 1/8 tsp yeast nutrient.

 

[attyindaburgh]

Here is the starter this morning. As you can see, krausen has fallen. I'm going to cold crash tonight and add 1.5 liters after I decant. Should be plenty to pitch as well as to save a pint for the next time.

 

[brewprint]

Here is the starter this morning. As you can see, krausen has fallen. I'm going to cold crash tonight and add 1.5 liters after I decant. Should be plenty to pitch as well as to save a pint for the next time.

There's plenty there right now to do your brew and save some for later. I've never heard of such a thing as a step up starter for a 1.05 OG beer until this thread. I guarantee your beer will turn out the same either way so no need for all the extra DME. It's your dime and time

 

[jbaysurfer]

Edit

 

[william_shakes_beer]

I know there are brewers that obsess over the details of all aspects of brewing. I'm not one of trhem. I haVE A 2l eflask and a stir plate. I do all my starters the same.

4 cups water, 1 cup DME.
Boil, cool, pour in 2 vials of harvested yeast slurrey
stir 24-48 hours til the krausen falls, chill til brew day.
Swirl and pitch starter, reserving 1/3 cup or so.

Repitch starter, repeat all steps above except instead of pitching, decant once and harvest for storage of fresh yeast sample ( 2 vials) for next time.

Wash, rinse, repead ad finitum.

 

[jbaysurfer]

OP, I'd stick with what the calculator told you. Now you have 2 diametrically opposed opinions on it. It's up to you to decide who's advice to take, and I suggest you consult a couple other opinions too.

The book How to Brew is free online and has a chapter on it, the book Yeast is a fantastic one and is written by Jamil Zainasheff and Chris White. Zainasheff invented and crated the Mr. Malty calculator (and runs Heretic Brewing Company in the Bay Area and is an all around really cool dude along with being a former NHC Ninkasi winner) and Chris White founded the yeast company; White Labs.

I respect Brewpint a lot btw, I just happen to believe proper yeast handling, pitch rate, and oxygenation is a very important tenet in brewing the absolute best beer possible. Not doing so will certainly still result in "beer" of course.

 

[jbaysurfer]

Have a 2l flask on order so haven't tried anything like this, but could you use a bung and a blow-off tube on it?

Might be overkill for a starter, and look silly but I despise unnecessary cleaning.

I want to keep contributing to this thread, and I didn't see a response to this:

It's not advisable to put a blowoff tube or airlock on your starter unless you inject it with pure O2 pre-ferment. The exchange of O2 molecules in the ambient air is an important nutrient that yeast require for reproduction.

 

[Natdavis777]

I want to keep contributing to this thread, and I didn't see a response to this:

It's not advisable to put a blowoff tube or airlock on your starter unless you inject it with pure O2 pre-ferment. The exchange of O2 molecules in the ambient air is an important nutrient that yeast require for reproduction.

Correct. This is the whole point of the stir plate. To constantly introduce oxygen. Best practice is to put some loosely sanitized foil over the top of the flask to stop stuff from falling in, but still allows oxygen to enter.

 

[Gavin C]

OP, I'd stick with what the calculator told you. Now you have 2 diametrically opposed opinions on it. It's up to you to decide who's advice to take, and I suggest you consult a couple other opinions too.

The book How to Brew is free online and has a chapter on it, the book Yeast is a fantastic one and is written by Jamil Zainasheff and Chris White. Zainasheff invented and crated the Mr. Malty calculator (and runs Heretic Brewing Company in the Bay Area and is an all around really cool dude along with being a former NHC Ninkasi winner) and Chris White founded the yeast company; White Labs.

I respect Brewpint a lot btw, I just happen to believe proper yeast handling, pitch rate, and oxygenation is a very important tenet in brewing the absolute best beer possible. Not doing so will certainly still result in "beer" of course.

The two approaches are essentially

1: I follow procedure x and I think my beer is great. I advise you to do something similar

2: I use the multiple evidence based sources available to help in targeting procedure y (a desired pitch rate in this instance ). I advise you to do the same.

I think if "1" is followed some form of independent arbitration is needed to determine the efficacy of the process, (what is the quality of the beer). Who could argue against independently verified highly scoring or award winning great beer.

If "2" is followed there is already a body of evidence to support it as a practice.

This should apply when advising folks of what to do I think. I would suggest that 99% of brewers think their beer to be very good. That's why we continue to brew. The argument,"my beer is great and has no off flavors and I do x" really holds no water. I read it here on the forum all the time. On no occasion have I ever doubted the author's belief in the veracity of their statement.

No reader or poster can possibly refute or support lofty claims as to a beer's excellence.

 

[brewprint]

OP, I'd stick with what the calculator told you. Now you have 2 diametrically opposed opinions on it. It's up to you to decide who's advice to take, and I suggest you consult a couple other opinions too.

The book How to Brew is free online and has a chapter on it, the book Yeast is a fantastic one and is written by Jamil Zainasheff and Chris White. Zainasheff invented and crated the Mr. Malty calculator (and runs Heretic Brewing Company in the Bay Area and is an all around really cool dude along with being a former NHC Ninkasi winner) and Chris White founded the yeast company; White Labs.

I respect Brewpint a lot btw, I just happen to believe proper yeast handling, pitch rate, and oxygenation is a very important tenet in brewing the absolute best beer possible. Not doing so will certainly still result in "beer" of course.

I appreciate that.

Still however I believe that I have made a clear point and will clarify more.

http://www.yeastcalc.co/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator

That is a link to a yeast calculator. In the drop down boxes there are 5 different methods of aeration. Two by Kai and three by Chris White.

2 of the methods are by using stir plates and the others are not. We'll stick with stir plates because I do believe they work and work fast.

Kai says that by running your stir plate super fast that the cell count will increase. White doesn't say. Of course I haven't read all of White's material but I have read a blog/article from Kai.

We have 2 differing opinions here using stir plates with one calculator. Now let's get Mr. Malty, Brewer's Friend, Beersmith, etc and we have a myriad of other results.

Now with my take we just have one more and I believe I'm correct. You believe you're correct. So who is really correct? Me, Kai, White, or Mr. Malty?

Nobody knows for sure and I bet one thing is for sure; no beer will be made with off flavors using either method.

I like my method because it's a simple process and I save yeast for later. I could just use a smack pack and no starter and follow the Wyeast instructions. I forgot there's another point of view from the yeast manufacturer. It becomes a headache and yeast calculators just add to it IMHO.

 

[jbaysurfer]

I appreciate that.

Still however I believe that I have made a clear point and will clarify more.

http://www.yeastcalc.co/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator

That is a link to a yeast calculator. In the drop down boxes there are 5 different methods of aeration. Two by Kai and three by Chris White.

2 of the methods are by using stir plates and the others are not. We'll stick with stir plates because I do believe they work and work fast.

Kai says that by running your stir plate super fast that the cell count will increase. White doesn't say. Of course I haven't read all of White's material but I have read a blog/article from Kai.

We have 2 differing opinions here using stir plates with one calculator. Now let's get Mr. Malty, Brewer's Friend, Beersmith, etc and we have a myriad of other results.

Now with my take we just have one more and I believe I'm correct. You believe you're correct. So who is really correct? Me, Kai, White, or Mr. Malty?

Nobody knows for sure and I bet one thing is for sure; no beer will be made with off flavors using either method.

I like my method because it's a simple process and I save yeast for later. I could just use a smack pack and no starter and follow the Wyeast instructions. I forgot there's another point of view from the yeast manufacturer. It becomes a headache and yeast calculators just add to it IMHO.

Since the yeast manufacturer's advice does indeed matter.
I already referred the OP to a book co-authored by the founder of Whitelabs.

When you're talking about something with BILLIONS of units, and you're talking about as many variables as starters contain (nutrients/glycogen/oxygen/fermentables/original cell counts/etc) there will inevitably be some variance.

Notice NONE of those calculators say that simply guessing is a better option. Notice every one of them assumes there is a "proper pitch rate".

I think we've belabored this enough and I defer to GavinC's post above. It's far more articulate than I can be, and I don't need to reinvent the wheel. We're all standing on the shoulders of giants here.