I,ve never tasted any diacetyl using US-05 . Underpitching, under-aerating and even high water PH can stress the yeast . Not to mention plastic buckets which ,IMPO, can't be used for fermentation more than a few times.
LoloMT7 said:The first few times I used US-05 I was fine but then I had a few with diacetyl I tried to warm up and do a diacetyl rest @ 68-70 for a few days. But it didn't help.
I even went as far as to split a batch up and pitched Nottingham ale yeast on 2.5 gallons and US-05 on the other half. I will be using Nottingham or S-04 from now on when I buy dry yeast. Some will swear up and down that the yeast isn't the problem but for me it made all the difference when I tried another yeast. To each his own but for now I'm not going to be putting US-05 in my wort.
ReverseApacheMaster said:It seems like you made up your mind the problem was the yeast well before you first posted this thread.
While it's possible that the yeast is the culprit, it's far more likely a process issue. Diacetyl is often caused by yeast stress. If you are underpitching, which it sounds like you might be, and under-aerating, that's a stressful environment likely to cause diacetyl and other off flavors.
two_hearted said:Ok, FWIW I am having similar issues, all with WL001. my last 5 batches have all had significant diacetly and muted hop flavors/aroma. (see thread here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/recurring-diacetlyesque-off-flavor-woes-353796/)
I am pretty sure I have a bacterial infection somewhere. I have replaced tubing and siphon, but still present. I ferment in the low 60s, do a diacetly rest, healthy pitching rates, nothing helps. I am about to start fermenting in SS sanke kegs and replacing all my plastic again. Huge pain... But, I'll let you know if it helps.
Croat said:I,ve never tasted any diacetyl using US-05 . Underpitching, under-aerating and even high water PH can stress the yeast . Not to mention plastic buckets which ,IMPO, can't be used for fermentation more than a few times.
In 3 years and over 40 batches using plastic buckets, I never got an infection, but my buckets have indeed gone old and I'm working on replacing with glass for now.
Dark IPA is an ale. Yes, I do d-rest for lagers obviously.
peterj said:I've read that if your fermentation gets above ~70F with US-05, you are running the risk of getting off flavors. I would say the diacetyl is a combonation of low pitching rate and fermentation temp being too high. Also, I think you said the other beers you did with US-05 were darker beers? If that is the case, you may still have had diacetyl in those but the flavor malts are raising the flavor threshold so you might not be able to detect it. The flavor threshold in a pale ale (and probably even a black IPA) would be much lower than a stout or something similar.
Diacetyl rests aren't forbidden for ales. I heard Mike McDole on the Jamil show talking about doing one for his IPA. And if you are having trouble with diacetyl, then why wouldn't you try something that has the sole purpose of reducing diacetyl? I would suggest fermenting in a swamp cooler in the mid to low 60sF then raising the temp to your ambient (68F) for a diacetyl rest.
No problems here at all. Why not let the beer ferment longer? 2 weeks, in my experience, is a little short. Another week might clear it up. I do 3 weeks or longer myself. I do control the temperature - 62-66 for 3 weeks then a couple of days at 68+, the I cool it to 35-40 before kegging.
FWIW and YMMV and WTF etc.
Steve da sleeve
moti_mo said:I agree with this suggestion. I never keg any beers before the 3 week mark, and usually leave in primary for 4 - 6 weeks, and I've never had diacetyl problems. Of course, I've never used S-05, but I've used PLENTY of strains notorious for diacetyl if not treated properly.
You say 2 weeks has always worked for you, but this is a curious viewpoint given your stories of multiple beers with diacetyl problems. Two weeks is great if everything else fell into place and the yeast produce very little diacetyl to begin with, but if this isn't the case, then usually just another week or two in primary will allow the yeast to clean up diacetyl very efficiently, even at 68 degrees.
Croat said:Not to mention plastic buckets which ,IMPO, can't be used for fermentation more than a few times.
Brulosopher said:Huh? How was this personal opinion formed? Evidence? I've used carboys and buckets, and after 10 years still much prefer the latter. I've been using the same plastic buckets for almost 2 years without any off flavors. I'm happy to have you over to share a couple pints
Only time I really had a problem with diacetyl with US-05 was a DIPA that a pro brewer picked up on.. now every beer over a 1.050 OG, US-05 gets rehydrated and left on the cake an extra week.. that seemed to solve it for me..
I had this issues when I started brewing because I fermented too hot and didn't let the beer sit on the yeast cake for at least 2.5 weeks. Now I do 21 day primary fermentations every time 65F for the first week and then 70F for 2 more weeks, then bottle.
I had this problem twice using 05. The first time resolved itself after I warmed it and let it sit for 2 more weeks. The other I had to add a bit of sugar to get the yeast active again, that seemed to help it clean up. But I have used it many many times without any issue. I couldn't find the explanation.
US-05 tends to be very clean for me and most I've seen post and talked with.
You do have to treat it well, like all other yeast strains.
I'd like to see your detailed notes on your entire brewing and fermentation process, including sanitation, before I'd blame it on the yeast. How about giving those to us so we can see?
Temp control, pitch rate, poor fermentation practices, and infection all come to my mind when I hear diacetyl and this yeast strain.
If you're done with this yeast I'll take any extras off your hands. It would save me the $3.99 each. I doubt the diacetyl is going anywhere now if the beer is off the yeast cake, but we can hope age will help.
Cheers.
Yes but lots of cleaning up happens after fermentation is over. 2 weeks clearly hasn't worked for you in this case. This is my point, take it or leave it.
Steve da sleeve
I agree with this suggestion. I never keg any beers before the 3 week mark, and usually leave in primary for 4 - 6 weeks, and I've never had diacetyl problems. Of course, I've never used S-05, but I've used PLENTY of strains notorious for diacetyl if not treated properly.
You say 2 weeks has always worked for you, but this is a curious viewpoint given your stories of multiple beers with diacetyl problems. Two weeks is great if everything else fell into place and the yeast produce very little diacetyl to begin with, but if this isn't the case, then usually just another week or two in primary will allow the yeast to clean up diacetyl very efficiently, even at 68 degrees.
I think it's mainly not leaving it on the yeast long enough. Diacetyl is produced in every fermentation to some degree.
bovineblitz said:Human nature is amazing, I agree.
Additionally:
If the diacetyl is getting worse over time, it's probably an infection.
You are obviously convinced I did something wrong or have an infection... It was just a miracle that my other 40+ batches turned out fantastic. :sigh: what can I say...
I have made wonderful brown ales and stouts using US-05 under this same methodology, no problems with off flavors whatsoever.
In the APA the diacetyl flavor was strong since the beer was green upon kegging all the way to 2 months of cold conditioning. I had to dump it. Some off flavors are tolerable when subtle but diacetyl ruins it for me. I would rather have a bud light honestly.
For this black IPA I just legged it yesterday. Smell was clean but I picked up diacetyl on the green beer. Maybe this one will be ok once carbonated and conditioned. I hope.
The bottom line - why does anyone really care about this?
moti_mo said:Just a thought. You absolutely don't have to use S-05 ever again if you don't want to. But...if you want to explore whether or not time on the yeast cake is one of your main issues, all you need to do is brew up the same recipe you used for your recent APA (try to keep everything about the brewing process the same as last time) and split that batch into two different fermentors. Pitch S-05 at the same pitching rates used before into each fermentor and ferment at the same temperature you did before. Keg one of the batches at the 2 week mark and let the other batch go 4 weeks before kegging. Compare.
And even if you don't want to try this experiment, definitely use some of the suggestions here for your future brews. If you taste diacetyl in a young beer that you're getting ready to keg, DON'T transfer it to a keg for cold conditioning. You know the diacetyl is there, and its well known that yeast will clean up diacetyl at warmer temperatures if given a little bit of time, but they don't stand a chance of cleaning it up at serving temperatures. Hence the reason every lager recipe ever written down includes some variation of the phrase "after the initial fermentation phase at ~50 F, warm up to >64 F for a diacetyl rest for several days". So, regardless of whether or not this is a particular issue with how S-05 works for you or not, that is the one thing you should definitely take from this thread - don't cool down a beer that has noticeable diacetyl; leave it to condition at near-room-temp for a while longer.
ayoungrad said:Indyking, as this thread goes on I was just looking back at your posts. I may have missed something but just to double-check... are these two diacetyl batches the last 2 that you have brewed and tasted? Or were there others in between as well?
Also, I did miss it before my last post but you said you saw diacetyl and 05 all over the place on the net. From my searches, there are mentions here and there but most of those posts from various sites are similar to this thread... they are followed by many people disagreeing with them. As I had mentioned, 05 is so prevalent that you are bound to find comradery with other brewers who got diacetyl but that doesn't mean its a problem with the yeast. If you are talking about the most prevalently used yeast, you are bound to have multiple brewers using processes that inadvertently result in diacetyl.
For me it is both entertaining and frustrating (for reason well stated by recent posts) to read through this thread. The bottom line - why does anyone really care about this? For me, I probably shouldn't. Because, by you convincing yourself and others that it is a bad yeast will only decrease demand and decrease the price. So it's a win for me that way.
moti_mo said:Sorry man, I don't think anyone is trying to pick on you or not be nice by any means. Its just a brewing forum where people sometimes come to get insight on what may be causing a particular problem and the best route for solving that problem. Everyone is analyzing your problem using the data that you've given them. The fact is - we don't have, and never will have, any data regarding whether or not you got a "bad lot" of the yeast or whether or not it was mishandled. All we can do is analyze everything else you've told us and give you opinions, and the overwhelming red flag regarding your technique and potential diacetyl problems is time in the primary on the yeast to allow it to clean up diacetyl. So its perfectly fine if you want to conclude that S-05 is a bad yeast, or prone to diacetyl production in minor adverse conditions, or that you got a bad or mishandled lot - its just that you don't have any actual data to back that up, so essentially you're just looking to rant and not looking for insight from any of the board members.
I would caution you against adopting the attitude of "I've done 40+ batches exactly the same way, and only had this problem twice, so it HAS to be this yeast". I've done 100+ batches, and I try to keep everything roughly the same every time, but I've had some batches come out off. It would be awesome to write those off to a "bad lot" of yeast, or something else that I had no control over. But I'm a scientist for my real job, so I'm kind of sensitized to the fact that, given the numerous variables that can affect the biology and chemistry of your fermentation, even when you think you've done EVERYTHING exactly the same, there could be some subtle variable(s) that has changed that you wouldn't normally give much thought to. But it could be that one (or two or three) subtle variable(s) that produces your bad batch that leaves you scratching your head. Sometimes you have to think really hard, and do some research, before you understand why your batch(es) came out bad.
Anyway, just remember to taste your beer BEFORE you keg it, and if you taste diacetyl, let it ride for a while. There's no need to rush your beer that you put a lot of time, effort, and money into if you can give it a little more time to make it perfect.
Again, not trying to criticize here, just looking to help.
Indyking said:The attitude problem some folks have at hbt is that they assume people with off flavors in their beer don't know what they are doing.
I understand and I'm not upset with anybody, relax. I think this thread can actually be very useful to someone troubleshooting diacetyl but honestly nothing suggested was new to me. The attitude problem some folks have at hbt is that they assume people with off flavors in their beer don't know what they are doing.
moti_mo said:Not sure why you're telling me to relax, I was specifically responding to a post where you stated that people were not being nice to you. But it sounds like you're good to go. Sorry nobody could provide any insight that was helpful to you. Good luck in your brewing.
On another note, professional brewers usually ferment in tall conicals. From things I've read, that is why they would never leave the beer on the yeast for extended periods - so they can avoid the risk of autolysis. The pressure on the yeast from a filled, tall conical is much greater that we see with buckets or carboys. And that pressure significantly increases the risk of autolysis. Again, this is only something I have read and I have no idea if it is true.
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