Upgrading equipment to increase brew quality

[Aki]

Hi,

I've been brewing for a while and starting to get frustrated with off-flavours and smells in almost every beer I brew. In order to make brewing process more stable and hence increase the quality, which equipment would you recommend to start with?

My current equipment consists of a 20L kettle, oven and a biab bag. I've been thinking of buying either keg equipment to avoid bottle conditioining and reduce brew time, or brewmonk to keep mash temperature stable. My fermentation temperature swings between 17-19c (ambient temp).

Thank you!

 

[eric19312]

Your issues sound like fermentation issues. Neither kegging nor controlling mash temperatures will fix those.

I'd look at your water, yeast and fermentation temperature control.

Water key would be to make sure no chlorine in your water. Carbon filter and treat it with campden tablet. Any chlorine or chloramine is almost guaranteed to give you some nasty off flavors. Plastic, burnt rubber, bandaid flavors I think. If a little water correcting helps you might want to upgrade by getting water tested, maybe invest in pH meter, brewing salts and a scale and/or reverse osmosis system (or just buy RO water for brewing).

Yeast - if using dry yeast make sure it is not too old and use enough - one pack for up to 5 gallons of moderate strength beer or 2 packs for stronger beer. If using liquid learn about making starters and do that. Pitch into wort a little below your intended fermentation temperature. Not 5-10C above fermentation temperature like some kits recommend. If yeast gets you excited learn more about starters, harvesting, washing and ranching yeast.

Temperature control. Fermentation produces heat and the fermenting beer could easily be hitting 24C if ambient is 19C. The critical time is first 2-3 days after pitching, there is a lot of food available and if the yeast starts to heat up it will eat faster making the wort even hotter until it rips through all the sugar and settles back towards ambient temps. While it was going crazy and ripping through all that sugar it would of also been producing off flavors and fusel alcohols. A mini fridge and an inkbird controller is modest investment that can make a big difference when getting started, but there are cheap low tech and pricy solutions too depending on your interest level and budget.

 

[Aki]

Thank you for comprehensive answer! Looks like I have to make some room for a fridge to my garage then and buy some campden tablets. Can excited yeast / too hot fermentation also cause yeasty, sugary, citrusy smells to a beer? I have noticed this smell and same off-flavour both in 5% ipa and 8% Delirium Tremens clone.

 

[jrgtr42]

Exactly what off flavors and aromas are you getting? if you can describe them, it may help to narrow down the cause.
Besides what Eric mentioned, how is your sanitation? The causes could be some unwanted bugs in there too.
Can you walk us through a brew day?
What is the temps you're fermenting at? You really want to keep most ales in the mid to high 60's, Farenheit - not sure where that falls Celsius. Much higher than that can cause any number of things. |Or, switch to Kveik yeast. That strain likes it hot.

 

[undergroundbrewer]

What size are these batches and how much yeast are you pitching? Are you making yeast starters (or at least using fresh yeast)? Often times when yeast is stressed you may get flavors that do not match the typical profile for that strain. Yeast stress can come from fermentation outside the specified temperature zone, cell count being too low, not enough viable nutrients, etc. Incomplete fermentation can lead to a sweeter finish (higher FG) and higher than intended body, among a litany of off flavors.

+1 for fermentation temp control. A cheap inkbird controller with an old kegerator is all that was required. You can probably find an empty fridge that would work with a quick check on Craigslist. This single move made the largest improvement in my beer, hands down.

 

[eric19312]

Thank you for comprehensive answer! Looks like I have to make some room for a fridge to my garage then and buy some campden tablets. Can excited yeast / too hot fermentation also cause yeasty, sugary, citrusy smells to a beer? I have noticed this smell and same off-flavour both in 5% ipa and 8% Delirium Tremens clone.

Interesting choice of off odors. I'm really not sure what to make of them. Try reading this page and see if any of these off flavor / aromas ring a bell with what you are experiencing:

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-4/is-my-beer-ruined/common-off-flavors

 

[McKnuckle]

17-19ºC is a good temperature range for the average ale yeast, even if that's ambient. Actual fermentation would be a bit warmer, but likely not enough to cause significant flavor problems. So that doesn't look like an issue.

Yeasty flavor is typically beer with, wait for it... yeast still suspended in the beer. How soon are you waiting til you drink your creations? Sugary is associated with oxidation, or too much oxygen exposure, especially once the beer is finished fermenting. Citrusy is usually a good thing, associated with hops.

 

[Aki]

Thank you all for replies.

Off-odours: (bread/baked roll) yeast, sugar, citrus, (raisin). Smells exactly like a drink that's done with fermentation, which consists of water, sugar, yeast (=that's used to make baked rolls or bread) and raisins. These flavours are not noticable in the beer but very distinct odour. There is an off-flavour too but unfortunately I am unable to describe it. Different than off-flavours occuring from e.g oxidation or other typical mistakes (at least I think so, first 2 beers of mine were oxidated).

Regarding brew day, there is nothing really special. Mash 60-75min @67c, boil 60min with hop additions, ice cube bath and then pitching yeast. Amount for 20L badge I've put 1pack of dry yeast if normal ABV and 2 packs if strong abv. I wash everything before use and before boil sanitize with star-san, then before dumping wort to fermentation bucket I spray more star-san solution to the bucket just to be sure.

 

[McKnuckle]

Just to avoid off-flavours from cleaning, wash your kettle and other hot side equipment with either plain hot water, or use a suitable brewery cleaner such as PBW. You may also use a small amount of dish soap on stainless steel, but make sure to rinse it thoroughly.

There is no need to sanitize any hot side equipment. Mashing and boiling take care of any potential problems there. And definitely sanitize cold side fermentation equipment with StarSan. "Spraying" a bucket may not be adequate. I would pour at least a pint of StarSan in there, and carefully tip/rotate the bucket so that it touches all surfaces. Then dump it out.

Often a persistent issue like this which affects multiple, varied brews is water related. People sometimes fail to acknowledge how fundamental water is as a component of beer, since it's relatively boring.

I still think your description sounds like green beer, not yet clarified or conditioned well.

 

[Aki]

Thank you for the information! I have actually washed my brewing equipment with dishwasher though I have noticed it's not recommended - I have to buy PBW and some campden tablets then. I also decided to make room for a fermentation chamber and (hopefully) a keezer.

 

[ESBrewer]

You should probably re-check the recipes and ingredients and ensure that you give your beers enough time so that yeast can take care of the possible off flavors and flocculate more effectively. How long do you typically ferment at 17-19 C ambient temperature and have you ever checked the actual temperature of the fermenting wort at high krausen or at the time of pitching yeast? Also, try to avoid all kind of oxidation post fermentation such as opening and closing the fermenter lid after the krausen has dropped or during bottling. The yeasty/bready off-smell/taste is probably yeast itself that could be dropped by cold-crashing the beer in a fridge or probably even outside depending on conditions. Choosing a more flocculent strain could also help with yeastiness. Yeast also needs some calcium ions (in the brewing water) to flocculate effectively. Yeast should also drop to the bottom of the bottles eventually if you cold condition the bottles long enough. Do the brews appear excessively yeasty (murky) at the time of tasting?

Also, you should taste the beer after each step to get an idea at which stage exactly each specific off flavor is present. This can help you to identify the problems in the process that cause these flavors / odours.

For you as a newcomer I would also suggest that you brew the same recipe (from a reliable source) a couple of times so that you can focus on refining the process and getting rid of the off-tastes. Each beer/recipe/style tends to have its tricks so it is easier to refine the process if the recipe remains constant.

 

[eric19312]

OK that raisin yeast water is a yeast propagation method used by bread bakers. I've never tried it but from reading a few web articles sounds like it would smell somewhat like sourdough starter which I've done quite a bit of and also described as a wine like fermentation.

These may be perfectly normal beer fermentation smells and @McKnuckle 's thoughts on green beer could be spot on. How long are you letting the beer condition in the bottle?

The other question would be how does the off flavor evolve in the bottle. For example in a 6 week old bottle vs a 3 week old bottle. Is it getting stronger with time (indicates you are dealing with contamination by wild yeast or bacteria and better keep these cold) or fading away (back to the green beer idea).

Did you notice the aroma in the beer when you bottled? Or did it show up in the bottles?

 

[Aki]

First I thought that the odour was fading away but to be honest I'm not sure. I don't recognize the flavour either but just tasted the beer and it's awful.

This beer I just brewed is Delirium Tremens clone (around 8%) I had the beer in two separate buckets. Both fermented 2 weeks, the other cold crashed for a week and other was sitting in ambient temp. After 3 weeks total I bottled them and waited for six weeks. I did taste the brew during og+fg measurement and after 2&4 weeks in bottles. Based on taste when measuring fg I thought it's going to be better. First the taste was very boozy and once it faded away it smelled like this yeast,sugar,raisin combo. Color of the cold-crashed brew was significantly lighter than the other one. Same batch, same aroma and same flavour.

Can it be from fermentation temp alone? Obviously I will research everything mentioned in this topic, thanks a lot for help.

 

[IslandLizard]

I have actually washed my brewing equipment with dishwasher though I have noticed it's not recommended - I have to buy PBW and some campden tablets then.

==> Can you please add your location (country is fine) to your user profile?
It really helps those giving you advice in making the right suggestions. Things we take for granted in the U.S. may not be available to you or are sold under different names.

I think using a dishwasher is fine for cleaning brewing equipment, the hot rinse cycles get rid of the detergents. Glassware usually comes out "squeaky" clean.
Now I wouldn't rely on cleaning inside vessels with narrow openings (siphons, bottles, etc.) in a dishwasher.

PBW:
Oxiclean or a generic (Sodium Percarbonate is the active oxygen releasing ingredient) is a rather good allround brewery cleaner.
Simple old fashioned "washing soda" (Sodium Carbonate) is fine for most brewery cleaning too, it's a good degreaser. It's a major component in laundry powder.

PBW is excessively expensive for what it is, and even more so outside the U.S. if available at all.
For extra cleaning oomph you can make your own homemade version by using 70-80% Sodium Percarbonate (Oxiclean) and 20-30% TSP (TriSodium Phosphate) or TSP/90 (Sodium Metasilicate). Or thereabouts.

Sanitizer:
What are you using now to sanitize your equipment?

 

[Aki]

Thank you, I added location to my profile now. I live in Finland.

PBW can be bought over here though it is relatively expensive, 18€ for 450g (i.e approximately 22 dollars per lb). I will definitely try what you suggested to replace PBW.

I use star-san to sanitize.

 

[ESBrewer]

Do you use dry yeast or is it liquid yeast (did you do starters if liquid)? Yeast health and proper pitch rate is quite important, too. Old or poorly handled lots of liquid yeast could be problematic, especially in a strong beer such as Belgian ales. So there are many sources of off tastes that could be eliminated.

For the fermentation derived off flavors in general I would say
a) pitch enough healthy yeast from a fresh starter (maybe even consider adding a small amount of yeast nutrient)
b) control temperature (usually a gradient that starts at the low end of the strains suggested temperature and ends higher to speed up the removal of unwanted compounds at the end of fermentation) - remember that fermentation reaction itself is going to produce some heat
c) give the yeast enough time to finish fermentation and drop excess yeast (enough cold conditioning time post fermentation should be fine)
d) minimize post fermentation oxygen exposure
e) sanitize everything on the cold side and don't touch things with your bare hands to avoid lactobacillus etc.
f) use sanitizers properly e.g. remember that no-rinse sanitizers need some contact time & to be no-rinse those must be diluted properly.

 

[IslandLizard]

Thank you, I added location to my profile now. I live in Finland.

PBW can be bought over here though it is relatively expensive, 18€ for 450g (i.e approximately 22 dollars per lb). I will definitely try what you suggested to replace PBW.

I use star-san to sanitize.

Thank you for adding your country. Very appreciated!

Yup, at that price you can make at least 5# of homemade PBW from its 2 basic ingredients.
When bought in bulk (50# buckets) at our group grain buy, we get a decent discount, and pay around $2.80 a pound. We split that bucket among those interested. That's about the same price or a little higher than when buying the 2 main ingredients from the hardware store or chemical supply.

 

[Aki]

Do you use dry yeast or is it liquid yeast (did you do starters if liquid)? Yeast health and proper pitch rate is quite important, too. Old or poorly handled lots of liquid yeast could be problematic, especially in a strong beer such as Belgian ales. So there are many sources of off tastes that could be eliminated.

For the fermentation derived off flavors in general I would say
a) pitch enough healthy yeast from a fresh starter (maybe even consider adding a small amount of yeast nutrient)
b) control temperature (usually a gradient that starts at the low end of the strains suggested temperature and ends higher to speed up the removal of unwanted compounds at the end of fermentation) - remember that fermentation reaction itself is going to produce some heat
c) give the yeast enough time to finish fermentation and drop excess yeast (enough cold conditioning time post fermentation should be fine)
d) minimize post fermentation oxygen exposure
e) sanitize everything on the cold side and don't touch things with your bare hands to avoid lactobacillus etc.
f) use sanitizers properly e.g. remember that no-rinse sanitizers need some contact time & to be no-rinse those must be diluted properly.

Thank you for the information and tips! I use Safale's dry yeasts.

I keep coming back to fermentation temperature. I think the off-flavour I find might be Isoamyl Acetate ester, not banana-like but more like nail-polish like. Not sure though.. have to buy the mini-fridge & Inkbird.

Thank you all!

 

[SFC Rudy]

You don't need a lot of shiny sh*t to make good beer. Focus on process.

 

[odie]

You don't need a lot of shiny sh*t to make good beer. Focus on process.

bingo....can't believe I had to scroll all the way to the bottom to see that posted.

process, not equipment is the key. what did monks use a thousand years ago?