unmalted wheat yield

[dcunitedfan]

I've been trying without success to determine what yield I can expect from unmalted wheat (as one might find in say a Witbier recipe). Palmer's table of "Typical Malt Yields (in PPG)" does not list unmalted wheat. I've also found no mention of yield on this forum or the internet homebrew shops that I frequent. Palmer lists *malted* wheat at 37 PPG. I have to think that the yield from unmodified grain is greater than zero, but have no idea where it lies between zero and the figure you might get after malting modification.

Does anyone have any ideas on this? I'm mostly curious to know so that I know what my latest batch's mashing efficiency is - it was from a premixed witbier grain kit (so I have to assume that the composition of grains was what the internet store claims) . Right now I can calculate a max. yield if I assume the unmalted wheat PPG is 0, and a min. yield if it's the same as malted wheat, but I'd like to be able to use an informed number in between.

 

[eriktlupus]

beersmith doesn't have a raw wheat option however it does have a roasted wheat which is unmalted and it list at 1.025ppg

 

[dcunitedfan]

hmmm...the trouble there is I'm not sure if that very low number (1.025, as opposed to say 35-38 for various forms of base barley malts) is primarily due to being unmalted or roasted.

The roasted malts seem to drop from say 38 all the way down to 25 for black patent malt. So if roasting alone can drop yield to 2/3 of what you get with base malting treatment, that seems to indicate that unmalted wheat must really have a very low PPG number indeed, if roasting it takes us down to 1.025.

More info I think is still needed to confirm or rebut...

 

[Sixbillionethans]

I was spending this eve developing recipe for my 3rd Saison, which I thought might go nice with unmalted wheat. (i.e. increase body in a beer with a FG of 1.004).

Snyder lists flaked wheat at 1.025-30 and wheat flour at 1.026-29. Mosher suggests soft red winter wheat and soft white wheats as best types for brewing.

However, I'm additionally thinking about doing a cereal mash when using the raw wheat. Several sources suggest that the diastatic power will suck, so I'll probably use 3# of 6-row with the 6# of raw wheat. Then I'll balance it with pils and specialty malts.

Would be interesting to know the other grains you used which would have contributed the enzymes for conversion.

 

[dcunitedfan]

5# Domestic Pilsner (Barley Malt)
3# White Wheat (Malt)
1# Unmalted Wheat
8oz carapils (Malt)

(As said before, it's from a recipe kit that I wanted to use up before it sat around much longer. I wasn't going for a wit style in this brew, but this was "close enough" and I'm hoping that the end result works OK. I used hops and yeast consistent with a hefeweizen, and added 1.25# of wild black raspberries post boil, so it will be interesting to see how it turns out. It's my first fruit beer, so it's really an experimental brew and not something where I have high expectations of a certain effect or quality)

I'm not too worried about conversion since only 1# of 9.5# was unmalted. I got an OG of 1.040 (don't know the final gravity yet), which I figure at about 60% eff, if I assume that unmalted wheat has the same PPG as malted wheat (a worst case assumption). My mashes run between 60-70%, so it's on the low end but consistent with my previous successful all malt mashes.

Now I'm wondering - when you say flaked wheat is 1.025 - 1.030, that seems like a different way of stating PPG than what Palmer uses. He lists flaked wheat at 36 PPG. Meaning that mashing one pound to produce 1 gallon of wort will yield 1.036 gravity (at least if you have a 100% efficient mash, which no one does - so a more realistic 75% efficiency will yield 1.027 OG). So perhaps the earlier answer for roasted (unmalted) wheat at 1.025 really means 25 PPG?

 

[fratermus]

Beersmith shows flaked wheat.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Flaked wheat and torrified wheat are both unmalted. I know BeerSmith has those as Frat says.

 

[lordbeermestrength]

I've been trying without success to determine what yield I can expect from unmalted wheat (as one might find in say a Witbier recipe). Palmer's table of "Typical Malt Yields (in PPG)" does not list unmalted wheat. I've also found no mention of yield on this forum or the internet homebrew shops that I frequent. Palmer lists *malted* wheat at 37 PPG. I have to think that the yield from unmodified grain is greater than zero, but have no idea where it lies between zero and the figure you might get after malting modification.

Does anyone have any ideas on this? I'm mostly curious to know so that I know what my latest batch's mashing efficiency is - it was from a premixed witbier grain kit (so I have to assume that the composition of grains was what the internet store claims) . Right now I can calculate a max. yield if I assume the unmalted wheat PPG is 0, and a min. yield if it's the same as malted wheat, but I'd like to be able to use an informed number in between.

I suspect that if malted wheat is actually 1.037 ppg, then unmalted should be very close, yes? There would still be roughly the same amount of starch within the wheat kernel in a unmalted version as a malted version. I suppose actual mash output efficiency may vary based on the amount of available enzymes to the wheat starch to convert it.

I don't know.

 

[flowerysong]

Palmer's table of "Typical Malt Yields (in PPG)" does not list unmalted wheat.

Yes, it does. That would be "Wheat (Flaked)".

 

[z987k]

unmalted wheat has no diastic power. So you're going to need some 2 or possibly even 6 row in there to convert it. Some pilsen 6 row and unmalted wheat is the ideal recipe for a wit imo.

Flaked wheat is pre-gelitinized and has a higher yield than unmalted. Same with torrified.

Using unmalted wheat in large amounts would really benefit from decoction mashing to gelatinize the wheat and raise the yield.
In fact, if not decocting, I believe that you need to do a cereal mash to get much of anything(sugar wise) from unmalted wheat. Could be wrong on that.... Anyone know the gelatinization temperature of wheat?

 

[z987k]

Yes, it does. That would be "Wheat (Flaked)".

no flaked wheat is different from plain unmalted. Yes flaked is unmalted, but it is gelitinized(I really need to figure out how to spell that word) which plain unmalted is not. And therefore the flaked does not need to be cooked in some way to extract sugars.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I have not heard of people using unmalted wheat in the non-flaked or torrified form. Is this commen and I am just missing the boat? Where do you get it?

 

[flowerysong]

no flaked wheat is different from unmalted.

No, it's not. Flaked wheat is a pregelatinised, unmalted form of wheat. It's different from wheat berries, but pound for pound the extract potential is the same.

 

[flowerysong]

In fact, if not decocting, I believe that you need to do a cereal mash to get much of anything(sugar wise) from unmalted wheat. Could be wrong on that.... Anyone know the gelatinization temperature of wheat?

Varies from variety to variety, but it only ranges to slightly above normal mash temperature (138F-156F). An extended mash will help make sure that there's time for full gelatinisation and conversion.

 

[z987k]

ok seeing that the gelatinisation temperature is in the mashing range, it will work, but you will need to mash longer to get the same yield from unmalted vs flaked.
The point I'm trying to make is you can't treat flaked and unmalted the same in your mash and expect the same yield.

btw, I love this, It makes me go google stuff and I end up finding really cool stuff.

from an article I was reading:

There is a fourth method which I am investigating. Auto Decoction. I have built experimental and production mash tuns which are pressure vessels (25, 100, and 2600 litre cookers) with vacuum guages and mechanical stirrers. I mash in at 58C for a protease and hydrolysing rest of 15 minutes. I then reduce pressure with an adjustable release valve and a vacuum pump and apply heat until the mash BOILS at ~65-70C! (About 0.24 atmospheres) The speed of SG rise after 10 minutes of this is spectacular in laboratory trials. I am decocting and sachrifying at the same time!

 

[dcunitedfan]

I guess this gets to a basic question about malting. In addition to developing some of the enzymes that are not already present (by beginning the germination process), I thought that malting helped to break down cell walls in the endosperm to make the starch more accessible, and thus raise the possible mash yield. Palmer has unmalted (flaked) wheat at 36 and malted at 37. Pretty tiny difference! I'm willing to accept the low value of possible efficiencies of my wheat beer, so I'm not fishing for a particular answer, it just seems odd that malting apparently has so little benefit to the yield with wheat.

Maybe the "more accessible starch" issue matters more with barley - the difference there is bigger, from 32 to 35-38.

Thanks to those who pointed out that (flaked) means unmalted

 

[Kaiser]

The difference in extract yield stems from malting losses. This is basically the amount of starch that is lost from the grain while the grain is germinating and metabolizing some of the starch.

Kai

 

[trigin]

I was trying to find a good value for unmalted wheat but it is difficult!

On brewer's friend it states that raw barley is the same as torrified wheat with 36 ppg

The fact is that it's not specified if the extract value are "as is" or on a "dry base" which makes a huge difference. Unmalted wheat has up to 12% moisture while malt is about 4%.

I am a student of brewing science in Nottingham and in a lecture they told us that a reasonable value for unmalted wheat is 260 L˚/kg (31 ppg). This lower value is due to the fact that there is much moisture in the grains.

Do you think that unmalted wheat for homebrewers is dried differently or these numbers are not so correct?

My doubt is that the value 36 ppg is on dry base which is not very useful for our calculation of recipes.

In fact if you make the calculation 31/(100-12)*100 the result is 35.2 which is close to the value stated my BF

 

[RM-MN]

The percentage of moisture in unmalted wheat will change with humidity but in my bin it tends to settle out at about 12% without heat being added.

 

[trigin]

The percentage of moisture in unmalted wheat will change with humidity but in my bin it tends to settle out at about 12% without heat being added.

Is it wheat used for brewing? How many ppg do you consider for it?
Cheers

 

[trigin]

I found this table from "Brewing Science and Practice".
Problem solved!