Unmalted wheat vs flour in Witbier

[luthierzan]

So, I have brewed a wit bier a couple of times. When I brew a wit I go through the whole cereal mash with ground unmalted wheat. I do this because I have never had a wit brewed with malted wheat I thought tasted right.
In the witbier episode from The Jamil Show with Dr Scott, he says grind the unmalted wheat as fine as you can. OK that is what I have been doing and I get a great wit out of it.

Anyway, here is my question. Can I use whole wheat flour in place in ground unmalted wheat? Isn't it the same thing? Has anyone tried this?
Trying to find whole unmalted wheat where I live is hard. So far I have had to by it on line, and pay for shipping.
I don't mind trying this out as an experiment, but it is a long brew day with the cereal mash, so I was just wondering if someone else out there is using flour with good results.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I believe the creative Aussies down under are using flour as an adjunct / wheat substitute...watch out for a stuck sparge though.

I have used angel hair pasta or thin spagetti in the mash...worked fine, a bit tangy, which I believe raw wheat will contribute, oh and way overcook the the pasta before adding to the mash.

 

[smokinghole]

I think whole wheat has the husks ground up with the endosperm. So you wouldn't want whole wheat but maybe simply unbleached flour. I've been using rolled wheat with good success thus far.

 

[509inc]

Sorry to hijack but:

What is your process for the cereal mash?

I have an almost unlimited access to raw wheat and have been looking to incorporate it into my brewing.

 

[luthierzan]

I'll tell you if you ship me a sack

25% your cereal mash should be 2 or 6 row.
So 4 lb of wheat - add 1.25 lb of 2 or 6 row.
I use 1.3 qt of water to 1 lb grain for mashing
heat liquor to 50C - dow in.
heat/stir mash until you reach 60C. rest 15 min.
heat/stir mash until you reach 70C rest 15 min.
heat/stir mash bringing it to a boil. Boil for 30 min.
Add this to the rest of your mash. Remember, you are adding boiling mass to your mash. Make sure the temp of the remander of your mash is low enough to account for this. Mash at your regular temp for 60 min. Since there are no husks on the wheat it is a good idea to add rice hulls to your mash.
Tip: I soak my rice hulls in 65C water for 10 min, then drain before I add them to my mash. This is so the hulls don't absorb my nice sweet wort.

 

[luthierzan]

I think whole wheat has the husks ground up with the endosperm. So you wouldn't want whole wheat but maybe simply unbleached flour.

Yes, you are right it is ground with the bran. If I try this I will use regular unbleached flour.

 

[passedpawn]

Good timing.

I made a belgian wit this morning. Second time I've made it. I use malted wheat, and 1 teaspoon of ordinary wheat flour (per 5 gallons) 5 minutes from flameout.

My wit is as good as I've ever had anywhere. My opinion of course.

 

[luthierzan]

I am sure your wit is very good.
I am hoping this thread stays on it's intended topic of using unmalted wheat and the process, and does not get off topic into the debate of malted vs unmalted wheat in a wit.

WilserBrewer, pasta...really? Wow, that's creative!
So do you cook the pasta first before adding it to the cereal mash?
Do you just add it straight into the cereal mash?
or is it able to convert and you just add it straight to the regular mash?

 

[wilserbrewer]

WilserBrewer, pasta...really? Wow, that's creative!
So do you cook the pasta first before adding it to the cereal mash?
Do you just add it straight into the cereal mash?
or is it able to convert and you just add it straight to the regular mash?

Yea, I got tired and disguntled leaving my LHBS w/ a $13 5lb bag of wheat malt so i posed the question here, after all, pasta is wheat more or less...https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/anybody-ever-used-pasta-adjunct-96661/ , I got a reply and a link about a guy in Norway that placed in a competition using spaghetti so I did a few batches. Usually around 30 -40 % wheat (pasta) if I recall.

I didn't cereal mash the pasta, I just overcooked the heck out of the pasta similiar to a Campbells soup noodle, something small like angel hair or thin spagetti, orzo etc. and added it to the mash..the tricky part is hitting a mash temperature. I also added all the starchy liwuid that the pasta was cooked in not draining the pasta. I remember either letting the pasta cool to mash temp or mashing low and and infusing the hot pasta...the mash w/ pasta looks a little disturbing, hah, but it converts and ferments out.

 

[passedpawn]

I am sure your wit is very good.
I am hoping this thread stays on it's intended topic of using unmalted wheat and the process, and does not get off topic into the debate of malted vs unmalted wheat in a wit.

Your topic is umalted wheat vs. flour in witbeer.

I've used flour in place of unmalted wheat in witbeer and it worked out fabulously. If your comment was towards me, and I misunderstood your topic, sorry.

 

[experiencehaze]

I also have a couple questions that I need some help with.

I am supposed to be using 3lbs of unmalted wheat in my next witbier, could I substitute 3lbs of white wheat flour instead?

Background for my next question, the endosperm, bran and germ of wheat make up 83%, 14.5% and 2.5% of the wheat's mass, respectively. Considering the flour mostly consists of the endosperm should I then add 7 ounces of wheat bran and 1.2 ounces of wheat germ in my adjunct mash?

Or am I just over-thinking this?

 

[wilserbrewer]

Or am I just over-thinking this?

Way overthinking If you want to add slightly less flour to compensate, well OK...but adding 1.2 oz of wheat germ OMG

The bran and germ are mostly fiber and should not matter all that much, if at all I would imagine.