Unintentional pellicle.

[jivex5k]

Hey guys...I have a berliner that I sour mashed, collected and boiled, and threw in a carboy on a fresh yeast cake from my previous berliner. I always boil so their should have only been sacc, but obviously something else got in it. It's probably because I lost my second airlock and just used sanitized foil in it's place. The sour mash tasted so weird I didn't really worry about it. I figured what the hell and pitched it onto the cake to see what happens.

After 7 days I have this:

I only make berliners so it might turn out to add some great funk. The problem is what if this isn't brett and it's something else that will turn my beer nasty? Who knows... I have another fresh batch souring right now that needs to go into a primary this weekend.

Anyway, I'm weighing 3 options at this point:
1. Racking it to secondary, then racking the sour mash I have going now right onto the pellice and cake.
2. Racking it to secondary, PBW and Starsan carboy, then finishing sour mash I have going now in a hopefully clean carboy with a fresh pitch of sacc, but not worrying too much about possibility of some leftover bugs.
3. Putting it in the corner, tasting it periodically, buying another carboy for my sour mash that will be done this weekend.

If I decide to let it sit in the corner I should get an airlock for it instead of just foil. Hell the foil could be the reason bugs got in post boil.
I'm going to taste it but I'm fairly certain it won't tell me much at this point. Option two would be the cheapest, option 3 would pay off long term cuz I could use another carboy, option one sounds really fun for some reason haha.

Any suggestions or feedback or scolding for poor sanitation is welcome.

 

[Spelaeus]

Brett is possible but from the look of it, my (inexperienced) guess is lacto. Especially since the low ph of the wort might already favor lacto growth. Only issue with putting it into another fermentation vessel is whether or not you mind infecting that vessel too.

 

[mnick12]

I doubt it is because of poor sanitation. Recently I have seen a lot of threads regarding sour mashed berliners and infections. I have a hunch that this all relates to the sour mashing technique. When you sour wort you literally have the potential for hundreds of different types of bacteria to grow, but the lactic acid producing bacteria end up being favored. Now a lot of lactic acid producing bacteria can also form spors, which will survive any amount of boiling. My guess is in all of the infection cases with sour mash berliners, is that spores are germinating in the finished beer. Really if you wanted to sterilize your beer you would need a giant autoclave.

With that said I don't think this is a bad thing, really with the low pH only select organisms could survive. This includes some of the lactobacillus and related bugs, which is good for a berliner!

 

[jivex5k]

I doubt it is because of poor sanitation. Recently I have seen a lot of threads regarding sour mashed berliners and infections. I have a hunch that this all relates to the sour mashing technique. When you sour wort you literally have the potential for hundreds of different types of bacteria to grow, but the lactic acid producing bacteria end up being favored. Now a lot of lactic acid producing bacteria can also form spors, which will survive any amount of boiling. My guess is in all of the infection cases with sour mash berliners, is that spores are germinating in the finished beer. Really if you wanted to sterilize your beer you would need a giant autoclave.

With that said I don't think this is a bad thing, really with the low pH only select organisms could survive. This includes some of the lactobacillus and related bugs, which is good for a berliner!

That's encouraging to hear! I'm going to taste it tonight and take a gravity reading.
I should probably pitch fresh yeast on my next batch though, maybe pitching on the yeast cake had something to do with it.

In the back of my mind I have an idea to just keep racking sour mash wort post boil onto this cake forever though...It would be hard to get consistency but man it would feel pretty cool to have this mother carboy.

 

[jivex5k]

Alright just took a sample.
Hydrometer is reading 1.035, down from 1.040. Sacc must not have liked this wort, I'd reckon the ph is too low because god damn the sour mash was painful to swallow it was so acidic.
The acidity in the swallow has mellowed to where it no longer hurts but it's still high. The taste itself is very tart, a lot of funky cheese i'd say. The tartness is almost hot...if that makes sense. Someone suggested acetobacter. Has a slightly medicinal aftertaste. It's definitely improved, I couldn't finish a glass of the sour mash if I tried but this I could get through, though it's not the most pleasant experience. Not getting any barnyard funk but it could be completely overpowered by the tartness.

So I'll be getting a new carboy and airlock tomorrow to sequester this one in the corner for a while. I wonder if the gravity will continue to drop. I think this has potential to improve but am not going to risk my new batch in this carboy. Maybe I'll toss some brett in there to help it attenuate.

 

[mnick12]

It sounds like the pH is too low for the sach to survive. If I were you I would use that beer to blend with another beer. Maybe just brew a low gravity ale and pitch us-05 or something similair, then try blending the two to your taste. At this point I dont think any sach will be able to survive in your berliner.

 

[jivex5k]

It sounds like the pH is too low for the sach to survive. If I were you I would use that beer to blend with another beer. Maybe just brew a low gravity ale and pitch us-05 or something similair, then try blending the two to your taste. At this point I dont think any sach will be able to survive in your berliner.

Yeah that was my thinking too. Brett may be able to handle the low ph though right?

 

[mnick12]

Brett might be able to, but if it is already funky enough you may want to try something like a champagne yeast. Usually champagne yeast is much more acid tolerant than brewers yeast. But it is hard to say without out knowing the pH.

 

[kona_dude]

It sounds like the pH is too low for the sach to survive. If I were you I would use that beer to blend with another beer. Maybe just brew a low gravity ale and pitch us-05 or something similair, then try blending the two to your taste. At this point I dont think any sach will be able to survive in your berliner.

+1 on using it to blend. Might be a good sour "stock" to add to other beers to bring up their sourness

 

[jivex5k]

So...crap...something is happening to my sour mashes now. This last one had the same issue this funky ass pellicle one did, to a lesser degree though. I could definitely taste more lacto, but it has the same sharpness the weird one did, and the same funky middle, but more lacto up front like the good ones.
I pitched US-05 into it saturday, rehydrated, no activity yet but it usually takes longer to kick off due to low ph. If it doesn't kick off soon I'm going to get a ph tolerant strain and try that out....but damn I don't know what is causing my sour mashes to change. I almost got it back to the desired outcome of the first 3 but....

I have a couple theories:
1. Sour mashing too long. Due to the schedule these are sour mashing for 6 days now, where before it was more like 4 and a half.
2. Grains I use harboring new bacteria. I've used the same grains for every one, have a bag in the cupboard of unmilled 2 row, I sanitize my hand when I grab them but this could be the cause of the undesirable bugs.
3. Airborn infection. The mash lid is off when I'm cooling it to 120 in the sink.

I have the ingredients to sour mash again....If I did it tonight it would test the timeframe theory. I can cool it with the lid on as well to minimize an airborn infection possibility. If I did this and it still got the weird bugs then I could safely assume it's the grains themself and get some new ones to use. I just want to get the original lacto clean sour I was getting, though this new bug isn't completely undesirable it may be lowering the ph too much...also something a shorter sour mash may eliminate.

Anyways, just spelling out my thoughts really. Good news is my raspberry is tasting fantastic so I've got 44 bottles of deliciousness at least. Hopefully this pellicle one will continue to ferment, and the latest batch will have the US-05 kick it off. Really debating sour mashing tonight...cutting off an entire day could make a significant difference I think.

 

[jivex5k]

Alright I've discussed this on a few forums and found a possible point of unwanted contamination could be the paint strainer bag I leave the mash in. It's elastic so i stretch it around the pot, going to mash with the bag folded over, open it to throw in the unmilled grains for lacto, then fold it over again while it sours. This should improve consistency by reducing the chance of airborn infection. Also going to cool it to 120 with the lid still on.

 

[wingedcoyote]

I might just skip the paint strainer during mash/sour mash and pour it into a different container with the strainer afterward. Your plan sounds fine though.

I haven't done a sour mash, but I've researched it a bit and my feeling is that six days seems really long. Most of the stuff I've seen suggests about 3 days for moderate acidity, 4 for high acidity. Probably doesn't affect the contamination issue, but I think it's likely the cause of your extreme sourness.

 

[jivex5k]

Yep, the more I thought about it the more that I realized the timeframe was the only thing changing. The first 3 batches turned out great, soured for 4.5 days each.
The next two came out much more acidic and funky, soured for 6 days each. Boiling after the mash would stop the ph from dropping so that would explain the difference, but I might as well strive for the best consistency anyways and keep the paint strainer contained.

What sucks is my entire apartment complex is getting bug bombed tomorrow so I don't have a sour mash going...bah...so much for planning on having a batch ready each week lol. The two funky batches will take some extra time, one killed a yeast cake but some wild brett survived somehow and it's fermenting very slowly right now. The other I pitched US-05 on Saturday night, no activity yet. If it's not doing something tomorrow I'm either throwing saison yeast or brett in it. Probably will go with the yeast, saison yeast is supposed to be more ph tolerant.