understanding high pressure versus low pressure propane

[2NobleDogs]

It's 1/4 on the burner side and 3/8 on the other. Here is a link to McMaster Carr. They have about any gadget or whatzit you could want. I got my fittings local but you can find it all here.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#brass-pipe-fittings/=fmw5q2

I bought the hoses local also but I probably would have bought them from Hoppy had I known. I think his are a little less expensive.

Look at post #40 (page 4) on the thread I sent earlier for a picture of the pilot mount.
Clay

 

[TrickyDick]

What a total PITA!

You need to become a master pipe fitter to get this right!

I found out in the brass craft catalog (a major supplier of gas supply lines), that their supply line uses a flare nut thread of 5/8-18 for 3/8 male flare connection. Is this a standard nut thread spec?

I also found out that you can only get this specific nut thread with the pipe end having a "flared" NPTF type.

McMaster parts numbered: 50635K383 (for straight nipple connection), and also in elbow version 50635K413. Be sure to look at the CAD drawings.

No clue on the matching gas supply line, trying to interpret the brass craft catalog is next to impossible.

Can anyone verify these parts are correct for a Honeywell 1/2" furnace type valve (male NPTF)?

Thanks

TD

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

We have no problems finding the parts we need at the Local hardware stores. Ace, HomeDepot and Lowes all carry every part we need for hooking up burners to manifolds.
With one exception: we use a swivel 90 from the burner to keep things neat. We purchase that fitting through a marine supplier.
Can you tell us what pieces you are having issues connecting so we can lead you in the right direction?
Perhaps photos?

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

Here are photos I hope make it easier:

 

[TrickyDick]

thanks for the support. I will be stopping at the local hardware store. Where I live there is really only one or two that are well stocked, and they are well out of my way. The closeby stores usually are an experience in frustration. Country living. If I can't find the parts I need, I'll be sending you (One Hoppy Guy) a call. Mostly been looking online, and it's hard to make sense out of all the pipe fitting nomenclature. For instance, what we here might refer to as a 1/2" male pipe thread to 3/8" flare nipple adapter, goes by something else online. At mcMaster for example it's a pipe to tube adapter, and the threads are flared on the pipe threads to boot!

What I am going to look for tonight, is a set of 3 adapters so I can connect my pipe thread valve outlet to the flare nipple inlet on the burner via a flex hose. I have brought with me, the nipple for the burner so I can test out the fittings in the hardware store. I doubt I will find all that I need. I like your solution of the ball valve integrated to the nipple adapter for the the LPG line.

If I cannot find the parts, I'll try to take some photos so you can see what I need.

By the way to nobledogs, what flame height are you getting on your low pressure burners?

TD

 

[2NobleDogs]

I had them at about 4 inches. It worked ok but I think that was too far away. I have read elsewhere it should be at 2 inches. I will be trying that next time.

 

[TrickyDick]

I found some 1/2" to 3/8" flare nipple adapters.

Now I need some 3/8 flare flex tubes but need to see how long they need to be.
I know there are BTU ratings for these flex lines based on ID and length. My burners are 61kBtu I believe.
Local hardware store only had 1/2 and 5/8 sizes.

One Hoppy Guy, looks like your lines are the rubber type LPG lines. I'd rather use steel if I can find them, so I might be in touch. I might also want the 90degree adapters, I'll know more when I get a chance to assemble everything.

Thanks

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

More recent discussion by email with a product rep and engineer for flex lines and I now have a headache.

The bottom line was that reducing the line ID to support a small inlet orifice for the burner was not recommended by their engineer.
This gist of this was that it would impose limitations on BTUs restricting to below the burners rated value (assuming they are even accurate to being with). I simply want a clean burn and to make the rated BTUs. I'm thinking about just putting it all together and see how it works. I will say that the orifice on the the flare to 1/4 MPT fitting for the banjo burner is very small.

 

[CollinsBrew]

I'm getting to the gas set up of my rig where I'm using the honeywell valves and pilot lights. The fittings and hose I can figure out but I'm curious as to where others have bought the black gas pipe? The guy at Lowe's said they don't carry any gas pipe for whatever reason. They do have threaded galvanized pipe which I've read you can use for propane. Any confirmation on that?

The next thing are my burners. All three burners I purchased at AgriSupply. The HLT and the BK burner are the BG-14's and are listed as high pressure. The MLT burner is the smaller Multi-hole 6" and is listed as a low pressure burner. The orifice on the low pressure smaller burner looks to be exactly the same size as the orifice on the larger BG-14. Does this seem right? I'm thinking it's due to the smaller burner size thus needing less gas.

My next question has to do with drilling the orifice. What drill bits are you guys using for these? I've seen drill specs that others have posted with decimal values that I'm not familiar with. Of course, I could just be dense and not realized that they were standarized sizes converted to decimal values for some reason.

EDIT: Me and my friends Google and the Search function found the answer to the orifice drill bit question. Coincidentally, is was a thread that I had started awhile back. However, the question about my burner remains the same.

 

[kladue]

For the 6" burners a 1/16" bit is the best size to start with, 3/32" for the BG-14, and use 3/8" flare flexible gas connector lines from big box or hardware store. The flare connected gas connectors come with the pipe thread adapters so connecting to gas valve using male pipe adapter, remove adapter on other end and connect flared end directly to burner gas fitting.

 

[CollinsBrew]

Thanks Kladue...I was at Lowe's tonight picking up the parts to my manifold and picked up some 1/4" copper tubing for the pilot lights. I took one of the pilot lights with me (the Q314A) since I thought I might need some fittings. There was a compression fitting including with the pilot light and one with the actual valve. This one actually. Normally, (or so I thought) a compression fitting was two pieces, the sleeve and the nut. Will these fittings work the same way by just tightening them down on the tubing?

Also, I'm still looking for a way to get from the propane tank to the manifold with a low pressure regulator somewhere in between. I know I will eventually figure it out but I'm looking for a way to possibly piece something together for a little less cash than buying a prefabbed hose. I'm not sure if you'd recommend it but I could put a 1/2" female to barb fitting on the end of my manifold and hose clamp a repurposed turkey fryer hose on there.

EDIT: When I got into the instructions for the pilot lights, it explains the the breakaway ferrules. I guess the key is to make sure that it actually breaks away when you tighten it down. I'm headed out to the garage to drill out the orifices now...should be fun.

 

[TrickyDick]

Maybe I am too immersed in the details. My valves and manifold are all 1/2" pipe. My new burners are the bg-14 type from Derrin, meant for low pressure LPG. My conundrum is, that all the flex hoses that will fit my connections say that they will support somewhere in the 40k BTU range.

The burners are supposedly good for 60 or 61k BTU.

How is all this calculated anyway? Furthermore, I am beginning to wonder if my regulator and LPG cylinder supply line are capable of supporting the 3 burners at their stated rating! The supply hose is 1/4 HIGH pressure going into the 2 stage regulator, and connects to my 1/2" manifold by a short 1.5" long 3/8 to 1/2 adapter bushing, and its a low pressure 11" WC regulator. The old ring burners had 3/8 NPT input and connected to the flex hose (with included adapters) through a 1/2 to 3/8 street elbow pipe.

So now, what is going to be the easiest way to connect my burners? Is probably gonna be a 3/8 to 1/4 adapter to plug right into the burner inlet.
But wait! There are supposedly these orifice valves (and I am still short one), that I need to use, which have a 3/8 flare nut! BTW the orifice looks incredibly small, about 1/8" diameter or smaller. How in the world is this going to support a 60k BTU burner?

So which do I need, 3/8 to 1/4" pipe adapter or 3/8 to 3/8 flare adapter? Also, do I need RTV on the flare threads? I think the answer is no.

TD

 

[CollinsBrew]

I used a 3/8 flare to 1/4 FIP to go from the hose to the burner orifice.

 

[TrueLeaf2011]

I'm setting up my new stand and bought 3 10" hurricane burners (high pressure from Agri Supply). I also bought a 11" WC regulator from Lowes, which if I understand correctly is low pressure. I plan to change the burner orifice from high pressure to low pressure using Brewers Hardware LPG Valves. Anyway, today I decided to test the burners with their existing valves before ordering the LPG valves. The flame was really small with almost no adjustment. This seemed like it might make sense but wanted to see if it might be caused by something else.

Also, will low pressure be strong enough for my boil kettle? I'd like to go with low pressure because it's quieter and in case I ever try to automate the burner (although that get less likely as I realize the limits of my mechanical ability).

Thanks!

 

[conneryis007]

I'm setting up my new stand and bought 3 10" hurricane burners (high pressure from Agri Supply). I also bought a 11" WC regulator from Lowes, which if I understand correctly is low pressure. I plan to change the burner orifice from high pressure to low pressure using Brewers Hardware LPG Valves. Anyway, today I decided to test the burners with their existing valves before ordering the LPG valves. The flame was really small with almost no adjustment. This seemed like it might make sense but wanted to see if it might be caused by something else.

Also, will low pressure be strong enough for my boil kettle? I'd like to go with low pressure because it's quieter and in case I ever try to automate the burner (although that get less likely as I realize the limits of my mechanical ability).

Thanks!

TrueLeaf

Lots of us use low pressure for our brew rigs.

The flame was tiny due to the totally wrong air/gas mixture from the wrong urifice.

I would suggest using drill bits to open up the size of the whole in the orifice before buying "low pressure orifices". Get a couple bits each incrementally larger than the existing hole, drill test, drill test, drill test until you have the correct air/gas ratio! There are lots of threads about orifice size and I think I used something like 3/32 for my hole.

 

[kladue]

Be careful with the regulators for BBQ'S, they usually have a rating of about 35,000 btu's, not nearly enough for the hurricane burners. A Marshall 290 dual stage is the smallest regulator I would recommend as it has a 160,000 btu capacity which is adequate for 2 burners wide open on low pressure. The Marshall regulators are widely used in RV's and readily available,relatively cheap, and reliable over wide inlet pressure changes.

 

[conneryis007]

Ah good eye Kladue, didn't catch the Lowes comment...
35,000 BTU is pretty small, even for one burner running at a time!
I use a marshall 290 on my stand and have found good results with it.

 

[TrueLeaf2011]

Awesome. Thanks for your help. I'll switch regulators and try drilling.

 

[TrueLeaf2011]

Hello again,

Is there a reason to use 3/8" gas flex tube instead if 1/2"? The 1/2" is much easier to find at Home Depot or Lowes. Thanks!

 

[TrickyDick]

I finally got my new burners installed. I am having a problem getting a steady flame, which seems to vary over the course of the brew session interns of intensity and air-mix, with some soot as well. I am planning to take some time over next week to figure it out.

Everything worked fine with the mini-jet burners until they rotted out. They developed propane leaks from the cast rings though pores or pits. Multiple burners. I gave up and bought low pressure banjo style burners from brewers hardware with the orifice/valves. I had a time finding flex hose to connect these to my propane manifold and valves, and ended up using a small flex pipe, probably not rated high enough.

Did one brew on it with the new burners and the boil kettle would not stay at the proper air mix and needed constant fiddling to keep a blue flame, but reached a point at which I could not get a nice blue flame at all. Started session with a "full" standard BBQ sized cylinder.

I'm going to post some pics next week and hopefully troubleshoot and get it working.

RH

 

[TrickyDick]

Finally,

Here are some pics from my rig.

I have the breakaway ferrule compression fitting on a pilot light, that I can't get to seal. Any suggestions on how to fix? I tried removing and cutting some of the old tubing and retightening. It doesn't work, you can pull easily the aluminum tubing out of the fitting when fully tightened...

Living in central FL, where most folks have electric heat used infrequently (maybe 7 days per year at most), it is hard to find propane "experts". Also living in the country, the term "expert" is used loosely on all accounts, not just propane guys. Anyway, I have finally hired one to help sort out the problem. He thought the orifice on the burners looked too big. He thought I might have bugs that crawled into the fittings. He thought trying to run more than one burner on the connecting tubing to the propane tank was bad. I am dubious of this expert, but am proceeding. He is going to plumb in the connections for me to connect to my buried tanks (long story but there are 2x250gal propane tanks) via a supply line that runs to my brew patio area.

At any rate, my replacement burners and orifices were purchased through brewershardware. I believe I have checked the order history and all seems correct.

I think I have either too little air mixing with the propane or vice versa.

TD

 

[WileECoyote]

subscribed, great thread.

Cheers

 

[SafariJack]

Tricky, did you ever get your burners figured out?

 

[TrickyDick]

Tricky, did you ever get your burners figured out?

Yes I sold those and bought tejas mini ring burners. Still have propane regulator problems. But at least I can brew. Getting soot and poor air mix. Still working on that but burners are at least staying HOT and are more powerful by quite a bit.

TD

 

[BrokenDog]

There is a lot of good info here that I'll be needing next week when I attempt to set my burners up on my new single tier.

 

[SafariJack]

I have a source of NG right at the edge of my garage that I plan to use for my Brutus clone. Hopefully things will go well for me

 

[Namako]

Whew!! There is a lot of GREAT information on this thread! But of course, with loads of information often comes loads of confusion in trying to adapt the lessons learned by our bretheren to the peculiarities of the paths we have chosen.

My path... I have 2 brand new Blichmann floor-standing burners that I'm getting ready to install into my to-be-automated brew stand. They both came with two high-pressure regulators (Ninbo Wanon GYK-5/8, with a sticker proclaiming "10 psig" on the knobs), a stainless steel-encased hose, and 3/8" female fittings that attach to the LPG oriface situated at the burner entrance (presumably also high-pressure).

I want to automate my system by feeding the LPG from a propane tank to two Honeywell VR8200A Gas Valves (HLT, BK), and then feeding the burners from the gas valve.

Unfortunately, the Honeywells are LOW pressure valves, with a nominal inlet pressure range of 12-14" water column.

It appears, from what I've been reading here, that all I have to do to convert the Blichmanns to low pressure is to replace the two regulators and the two LPG orifaces with low-pressure models. The Banjo burners Blichmann uses can remain unmodified.

Is this correct? If so, what performance changes should I expect? Less pressure = less gas delivered/burned = fewer BTUs = less heating efficiencies = more time = lower performance... am I correct?

Is there a high pressure alternative to the Honeywells that would provide the same level of automation?

As an aside, I happen to have an old low-pressure Marshall Gas Controls 605H 2-stage switching regulator that I would really LOVE to use. The reg allows me to hook up two propane tanks to the one regulator, and then by using a splitter, send gas out simultaneously to the two burners. The regulator draws from only one of the tanks until it is empty, and then it automatically switches to the other tank without disrupting the flow of gas. I can then swap out the empty tank while the boil continues on the second tank, and I'm never left with more than 1 partally-full tank. That said, I suspect the regulator may not have the capacity to deliver 11" WC to both burners simultaneously.

Thoughts anyone? Kladue??

 

[mblanks2]

Subscribed, great info.

 

[TrickyDick]

Whew!! There is a lot of GREAT information on this thread! But of course, with loads of information often comes loads of confusion in trying to adapt the lessons learned by our bretheren to the peculiarities of the paths we have chosen.

My path... I have 2 brand new Blichmann floor-standing burners that I'm getting ready to install into my to-be-automated brew stand. They both came with two high-pressure regulators (Ninbo Wanon GYK-5/8, with a sticker proclaiming "10 psig" on the knobs), a stainless steel-encased hose, and 3/8" female fittings that attach to the LPG oriface situated at the burner entrance (presumably also high-pressure).

I want to automate my system by feeding the LPG from a propane tank to two Honeywell VR8200A Gas Valves (HLT, BK), and then feeding the burners from the gas valve.

Unfortunately, the Honeywells are LOW pressure valves, with a nominal inlet pressure range of 12-14" water column.

It appears, from what I've been reading here, that all I have to do to convert the Blichmanns to low pressure is to replace the two regulators and the two LPG orifaces with low-pressure models. The Banjo burners Blichmann uses can remain unmodified.

Is this correct? If so, what performance changes should I expect? Less pressure = less gas delivered/burned = fewer BTUs = less heating efficiencies = more time = lower performance... am I correct?

Is there a high pressure alternative to the Honeywells that would provide the same level of automation?

As an aside, I happen to have an old low-pressure Marshall Gas Controls 605H 2-stage switching regulator that I would really LOVE to use. The reg allows me to hook up two propane tanks to the one regulator, and then by using a splitter, send gas out simultaneously to the two burners. The regulator draws from only one of the tanks until it is empty, and then it automatically switches to the other tank without disrupting the flow of gas. I can then swap out the empty tank while the boil continues on the second tank, and I'm never left with more than 1 partally-full tank. That said, I suspect the regulator may not have the capacity to deliver 11" WC to both burners simultaneously.

Thoughts anyone? Kladue??

I have been struggling with my propane issues. I have a new regulator mfd by Reco I think it the name. Marshall is out of business. My old reg I think a Marshall 300 series, was rated for 160kbtu. If you are running two banjo burners you might want to dig up the btu rating on your regulator. Mine had pressure drops with two burners and severe drops with three burners. Plus I suspect that in addition on the pressure, the volume of flow was problematic. I still haven't sorted the issues out. Brewers hardware sells similar LPG low pressure burners and orifices. I had trouble with these burners myself, but I suspect was because of my regulator. I have not yet installed my new regulator. It can handle like 450k btu, enough for my three 100k btu mini jet burners. I think your suspicion of that regulator is well placed. Do yourself a favor and buy a decent regulator from the get go. These Reco regs look very well built (bolted covers instead of crimped on for instance). Mine is a dual stage. Though I don't need a two stage, it'll be handy if I ever need to go to a portable cylinder. I suspect that if my new regulator doesn't cure my problems, that I will be looking for the second stage regulator in my home and replacing it or going back to portable cylinders.

Correct that the Honeywell valves are for low pressure.

What are using for a mash tun? If you ever decide you want a heated mash tun, get a regulator that can handle three burners with additional capacity or headroom. I don't know if that is a real phenomena of regulators, but suspect might be problematic to run at max btu all the time, and might have difficulty maintaining steady pressure and flow than with a regulator that has extra capacity. My old Marshall reg dropped to less than 5inch WC when all three burners were lit. Only time this happens on my rig is during run off after the BK is partially filled I light the burner so as to save time. The MT & HLT burners cycle on and off to maintain run off and sparge water temps. I might also have three going when I do a decoction mash later this year ( I must be insane).

Good luck!

TD

 

[Namako]

I discovered that Marshall Gas Controls went out of business at the end of last year, so I'm now toying with the idea of buying the Marshall Excelsior MEGR-9984 2-Stage Automatic Regulator. The specs say it'll put out 230,000 btu/h, so it should be able to keep up with a couple of Blichmanns converted to low pressure.

I really want the ability to run two propane tanks in series, and have the regulator automatically switch to the full one in reserve when it empties the first one. I really HATE it when I go to take a break to crack open another beer... or to respectfully drain the last one... only to come back to a kettle that at some point in the last 10-15 minutes lost its boil due to a flame out/empty tank. I also llike taking EMPTY tanks back to get refilled, rather than partially tanks - propane isn't free!!

As you indicated, there are times when I might be running both burners simultaneously, and I'd like for the regulator to be able to keep up. I use an electric RIMS (2000W/100V) for the mash (all three of my kettles are Blichmann 20-gallon BoilerMakers), so I have no need for a third burner. Once I repatriate back to the states, and I have access to 30Amp service, I'll probably throw all of this aside and go all electric!

 

[kladue]

Looks like the Marshall regulator replacement will do the job, low pressure orifices are usually running about 70K-80K btu's. With the burners 1/2 of the combustion air enters with the gas, the other 1/2 is what flows up and around the burner flames. While the shrouds are a good idea, you need to make sure the flow of air from underneath and the exit of the flame from the top are not restricted too much. For flat bottom pots a 1/2" spacer between frame and bottom of the pot is enough, for kegs a 1-1/2" X 4" window in the skirt will work.

 

[TrickyDick]

I still have issues.


Replaced Marshall 290 with a Reco 2 stage 450k BTU rated regulator.
Lose pressure when I have more than one burner running. 9" with 2, 5" with 3.
Still no razor sharp blue flame with any combination.
Source is tandem 250gal tanks with a psi regulator. There must be another secondary somewhere I think, and probably a crappy one at that.
I connect my rig to a QD, which I thought went right to the buried tanks, but seems like it probably does not.
I don't think a portable 15 pound cylinder can run three 100k btu burners. Hate to take a step backwards versus huge buried tanks, but think I need to try that for diagnostic purposes.

TD

By the way. Found out my QD hookup bypasses the secondary regulator. Primary 10psi tank regulator is feeding directly the 3/4" line to which my manifold is connected by a two stage regulator. Is there a problem with having a 10 psi primary regulator on the buried tanks, AND a two stage regulator on the manifold ( in essence two primary regulators??). Also the Honeywell valves have built in regulators. I can't imagine that this is the root of my problems.

 

[adamant]

I am interested in building a dual gas brewing structure that I can use propane when I go to group brews and NG when I am at home.

I think I can get away with using banjo burners with drilled out orifices for NG, and swapping in new orifices for using LP. Can I also get away with the same sized piping? I saw some people complaining that 1/2" pipe was not sufficient for flowing enough NG, and they had much better results with 3/4". Is there any reason that I can't run the propane through the same 3/4" pipe? I am not sure how the pressures work if I step it down to 1/4" piping to each burner.

 

[day_trippr]

If you picked up a high volume/low pressure propane regulator, you shouldn't have to swap orifices between "home" and "away" brews.

I haven't read of anyone complaining about 1/2" iron pipe on NG rigs, but if you're worried about it, go with 3/4". And you don't need to step down to 1/4" to the orifices...

Cheers!

 

[adamant]

If you picked up a high volume/low pressure propane regulator, you shouldn't have to swap orifices between "home" and "away" brews.

I haven't read of anyone complaining about 1/2" iron pipe on NG rigs, but if you're worried about it, go with 3/4". And you don't need to step down to 1/4" to the orifices...

Cheers!

Are you saying that propane will flow well through a drilled out orifice? Does it matter what burners I select? I am leaning toward Banjo style burners. I found a few online that support up to 160,000 BTU/hr. That sounds sufficient to run a few burners at ~50,000BTU.

Do you suggest just running the 1/2" or 3/4" pipe right to a reducer to the orifice? I assume that I will be able to get 1/2" pipe without much issue.

I appreciate the reply.

 

[day_trippr]

Yes, and Yes...

Cheers!

 

[adamant]

Yes, and Yes...

Cheers!

I am not sure how this works if you have a 1/4" hose from the regulator to the manifold, does it matter if the manifold is 1/2" or 1/4"? I guess with the NG the connections will not be restricted, so it will still be important to have the wider pipe.

 

[day_trippr]

Whoa! Who said anything about 1/4" hoses - especially long hoses between tanks and rigs? 1/2" minimum, unless you're running a wicked long hose where you'd likely want to go with something even larger...

Cheers!

 

[adamant]

Whoa! Who said anything about 1/4" hoses - especially long hoses between tanks and rigs? 1/2" minimum, unless you're running a wicked long hose where you'd likely want to go with something even larger...

Cheers!

Alrighty then! I was looking at the regulators here: http://www.tejassmokers.com/lowpressureregulators.htm
and they all have 3/8" output and hoses. Are there Low pressure LP regulators that have 1/2" outputs? I am assuming that at any point there is a restriction it defeats the purpose of having the wider pipe later on in the system.

 

[kladue]

The 3/8" connection on a 2 stage regulator and short run of 3/8" hose (< 4') will not significantly impact the overall delivery pressure when used with a pipe manifold, remember the gas jet opening for 10" LP burners is usually only 3/32".
Using 1/2" iron pipe is the easiest and most common material available to build manifolds from. While using gas rated Teflon tape for thread sealing is acceptable practice, but liquid thread sealers do not shed fragments into your gas system where they can plug up small openings in pilot and burner orifices.
Trying to switch between NG and LP on a regular basis will involve two sets of parts to switch between fuels, burner jets, pilot orifices, automatic gas valve springs, 1/2"+ hose for NG, and 2 stage regulator and 3/8" hose for LP.
Check Lowes for a 2 stage LP regulator at a better price point