"Undermodified lager malt is heavily in used in Europe "!

[Finlandbrews]

I would like your opinion on this (see statement in the bottom and related questions). I have many books where it says that protein rest is not necessary anymore as nowadays lager malt is also fully modified. However, The Institute of brewing and distilling in London (which is a very old Institute from 1886) is claiming - from their technical team- that "Lager malt is termed an undermodified malt and ale malt a fully modified malt". When I challenged that lager malt is nowadays fully modified and that the info might not be up to date, they replied "The industry is non-standard. Undermodified malt is still heavily in use in Europe". In that reply, they don't even precise lager malt but they mean so.

Is their statement correct in your opinion? And if correct, how is the situation in USA regarding the use of undermodified malt? Is malting technology lagging/behind in Europe? Why is lager malt undermodified and not ale malt?

 

[dmtaylor]

Undermodified malt is no longer available anywhere in the 21st century unless you malt your own. I've looked. Just because some people want to change the definition of undermodified doesn't mean the malt is actually undermodified. It's all about Kolbach index and the truth of the matter is, everything produced by all maltsters today in the 21st century is highly modified by the real definition.

 

[beersk]

Many European breweries do, in fact, have their own malt houses, so maybe they're intentionally under modifying their malts.

 

[dmtaylor]

Seriously doubt. Seriously doubt.

 

[DrinksWellWithOthers]

I've taken classes at the IBD at London and was not very impressed with the curriculum and it's presentation. I also found their negative attitude towards the German and American brewing cultures discrediting to their teachings.

 

[dmtaylor]

I've taken classes at the IBD at London and was not very impressed with the curriculum and it's presentation. I also found their negative attitude towards the German and American brewing cultures discrediting to their teachings.

LOL.

The Germans are still the masters, and they don't use undermodified malts anymore. They don't even step mash anymore (most anyway). Americans are getting up there in knowledge but the old Papazianisms are still everywhere and hard to kill. The Brits? I can't say for sure but I get the feeling they have some royal catching up to do. British accents might sound intellectual to the American ear, but don't actually make them any smarter. Now Aussies, on the other hand......

Cheers.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Seriously doubt. Seriously doubt.

Pilsner Urquell.

 

[Finlandbrews]

LOL.

The Germans are still the masters, and they don't use undermodified malts anymore. They don't even step mash anymore (most anyway). Americans are getting up there in knowledge but the old Papazianisms are still everywhere and hard to kill. The Brits? I can't say for sure but I get the feeling they have some royal catching up to do. British accents might sound intellectual to the American ear, but don't actually make them any smarter. Now Aussies, on the other hand......

Cheers.

Yes, it s very hard for me but I guess I'll have to complete the examinations successfully now. Also I feel like they are old fashion but the distance learning and price made it a good choice for me. In my opinion USA is far beyond any other Country in the world in terms of beer and brewing knowledge. I'm Belgian but my mothertongue has become English in the last 5 years and everything - almost- I found interesting about beer is in USA! Also I was told by the IBD's technical team that their notes for the general certificate in packaging for canning dates from 2008 and that the info is up to date except "some" minor updates in 2011. There might not be much changes, but I doubt in the canning that there is nothing new since 2011... I'll find out sooner or later when I learn more.

 

[dmtaylor]

Pilsner Urquell.

Okay, there's one example. One. Can we get their malt to use at home? No. So then what is the point of this discussion again? Does any other brewery malt their own? Does any other brewery purposely undermodify their own malt? Maybe they do. But what do I know, I'm just a dumb American... though I voted for neither C nor T.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Okay, there's one example. One. Can we get their malt to use at home? No. So then what is the point of this discussion again? Does any other brewery malt their own? Does any other brewery purposely undermodify their own malt? Maybe they do. But what do I know, I'm just a dumb American... though I voted for neither C nor T.

Weyerman Bohemian Pils and Floor Malted Pils. Kolbach Index of 34 to 44.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I would like your opinion on this (see statement in the bottom and related questions). I have many books where it says that protein rest is not necessary anymore as nowadays lager malt is also fully modified. However, The Institute of brewing and distilling in London (which is a very old Institute from 1886) is claiming - from their technical team- that "Lager malt is termed an undermodified malt and ale malt a fully modified malt". When I challenged that lager malt is nowadays fully modified and that the info might not be up to date, they replied "The industry is non-standard. Undermodified malt is still heavily in use in Europe". In that reply, they don't even precise lager malt but they mean so.

Is their statement correct in your opinion? And if correct, how is the situation in USA regarding the use of undermodified malt? Is malting technology lagging/behind in Europe? Why is lager malt undermodified and not ale malt?

Here is an article from 23 years ago by George Fix.

I make no claim that any of this is still relevant, but offer a source that may provide some, if any, clarification on the statement.

http://www.probrewer.com/library/malt/belgian-malts-some-practical-observations/

 

[dmtaylor]

Weyerman Bohemian Pils and Floor Malted Pils. Kolbach Index of 34 to 44.

Yeah, but by many accounts, 33 or less is undermodified, and 40 or more is overmodified. Then if you actually look up the Kolbach index for real life Weyermann malts, it's never below 40.

References:

http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3750.html

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=580062

http://www.weyermann.de/pdf_analyses/q019-001960-01.pdf

 

[Finlandbrews]

.

 

[Finlandbrews]

Here is an article from 23 years ago by George Fix.

I make no claim that any of this is still relevant, but offer a source that may provide some, if any, clarification on the statement.

http://www.probrewer.com/library/malt/belgian-malts-some-practical-observations/

I didn't read fully but there are a few interesting points in this article in relation to what I have been asking.

Fix wrote this in 1993 and said that Europeans like to make lagers from undermodified malt mainly for two reasons 1) tradition and 2) longer storage conditions. What is funny with these 2 reasons is that they both relate to ancestral/non-innovative way of thinking and in a way the idea of using old ingredient in place of the most fresh, efficient and maybe taste quality (consistent at least) one too. I do not know in terms of taste quality really but it is for a reason that we don't use burnt malt (to the extent/volume of pre Daniel Wheeler s invention) anymore - with gruit instead of hops and no precise temperature controlled fermentation- and more... Tradition is nice because it tells stories and the life of legendary beers in "remote" places, but what is admirable in my opinion is the open mindedness of America. It has embraced tradition with innovation - maybe thanks to lack of brewing traditions also- and that is most fascinating because cooking/brewing is creation, innovation, art, science, tradition.... And not only tradition. The purity law was a tax law and nowadays average/most Germans still tell you that a beer is not a beer when it doesn't use the pure ingredients of beer! What a joke really, beer is like a religion in Germany, it's cold, stubborn, against science, innovation and so on... it still impacts young crowds who tell you that a kriek, a faro, a barley wine,... are not beers and they have much better or more beers than anywhere else in the world. As a Belgian who knows a bit about beer and sometimes like to provoke, I always say that USA is the beer paradise when Europeans say to me "of course you like beer, Belgium has the best beers!"

 

[Finlandbrews]

Here is an article from 23 years ago by George Fix.

I make no claim that any of this is still relevant, but offer a source that may provide some, if any, clarification on the statement.

http://www.probrewer.com/library/malt/belgian-malts-some-practical-observations/

I discovered that the Dewolf cosyns floor malting company from fix s article went bankrupt. An article claimed that Dingemans is now the replacing company of Dewolf cosyns but at least one of the if not the biggest Belgian malting company and they write on their website (see picture).

View attachment 1478726221400.jpg

 

[Finlandbrews]

I discovered that the Dewolf cosyns floor malting company from fix s article went bankrupt. An article claimed that Dingemans is now the replacing company of Dewolf cosyns but at least one of the if not the biggest Belgian malting company and they write on their website (see picture).

In today s crazy competing world of craft beer I do not see why a brewery wants to buy malt with poor sacharification efficiency and bad filtration properties with undermodified malt instead of well modified or fully modified. If one brewery goes back to burnt malt in today s world there is a chance to have to close your business like Dewolf cosyns malting... But in UK you never know...

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Yeah, but by many accounts, 33 or less is undermodified, and 40 or more is overmodified. Then if you actually look up the Kolbach index for real life Weyermann malts, it's never below 40.

References:

http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3750.html

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=580062

http://www.weyermann.de/pdf_analyses/q019-001960-01.pdf

<shrug>

The e-malt reference I found stated anything under 35 is considered undermodified.

 

[Denny]

Many European breweries do, in fact, have their own malt houses, so maybe they're intentionally under modifying their malts.

Many or some? I kinda doubt it's many, but I haven't counted. Seems like you have.

 

[sudbuddy]

LOL.

The Germans are still the masters, and they don't use undermodified malts anymore. They don't even step mash anymore (most anyway).

Cheers.

Not even close to true. Have you ever been to a German brewery? I've been to dozens, and all of them are at least 4 vessel systems to accomodate step mashing. A German brewer would be very puzzled as to why anyone would do a single infusion mash because it leaves most of the control over the finished beer in the hands of the maltster. It's true that many have abandoned decoction, but step mashing? Never.

 

[Finlandbrews]

Is full modification preventing from doing step mashes? Well and full modification of malt may reduces the need for step mashes but there might be different wort profiles that can still be reached with step mashing of fully modified malt? This doesn't mean that undermodified malt is under heavy use or that the German breweries are using (similar) undermodified malt like they did 50 years ago. What German breweries are you talking about for example? I think also that tradition, long time knowledge of certain practices, emotional aspects and historical equipment can push to continue doing things in the same way. Many Germans believe they have much better beer than in USA and other countries in the world, and that a kriek or a chili stout is not a beer. Times are changing Germany (and UK too if what IBD claims is true), think evolution not religion! Think fully modified malt and dry hopping not burnt malt and gruit!

 

[Bassman2003]

I would think that step mashing still plays a role in German/Belgian brewing but the malt modification makes the step time a lot shorter. From my understanding, step mashing is not just about sugar but about providing more of what yeast wants and shaping the final beer.

If you stand on a 30 minute protein rest there is a good chance the malt would be spent! I think nowadays, a slow temperature ramp from 120f to 152f with a 30min rest at 152f or a bit higher would accomplish the same. Call it a swoop mash. Start at 95f for wheat beers.

But it is easy to get swallowed up in tradition and not realize you do not HAVE to do it that way for a positive result.

 

[Tribe Fan]

Thread made me curious on large scale decoction mashing and I came across this really cool 1930's video.
https://youtu.be/_1f7m31b_HE?list=PL27A3388C29CD28C2

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for sharing the link. Cool video for sure.

 

[Birrofilo]

I don't think this video is from 1930 as the caption says. It is signed at the end "Reichsstelle fuer den Unterrichtsfilm" and therefore the film was realized between 1934 and 1940.

Curiously, the film uses music from Felix Mendelssohn, which was "frowned upon", Mendelssohn being a Jew, and from what we are told his music was "banished" during the Third Reich, although this documentary doesn't seem to confirm that.

The images show that "low dissolved-oxygen brewing" was not high on the attention of brewers of the time I think the beer was certainly very good nonetheless.

Very interesting video for sure!