Uncharted territory with high gravity yeast (high temp question)

[coolmug]

Hi,

So wondering what people's thoughts are about this strange situation. So I brewed a juicy IPA with frozen fruit and White Labs WLP099 Super High Gravity Ale Yeast. When I finished the boil and brought the temp down to 26 celsius, the OG was 1.044. 5 days later, I checked the FG and it was .98 (8.4%ABV). The ambient temperature in my place was 26 celsius. Since this yeast can technically be as high as 20% ABV, I knew this reading could be higher. I added a space heater next to the fermenter, and 1 day later the FG went to .94. So now the ABV is 13.65%. I checked the temperature of the wort, and it is 35 celsius. The yeast is recommended to ferment at max 20.5 celsius. Why is it that in practice, my wort has to be considerably higher in temperature to ferment out completely?

I should say that I have gotten this ABV before in the winter, when I left my primary fermenter next to the radiator. Also, no off flavours like banana or raisin...turned out well. I'm happy with the result, but mystified as I thought most yeast would die at this temperature...they seem to be having an all-you-can-eat sugar buffet with no end in sight

For quick reference:

6 gallons
8lb US 2 row pale
3lb Maris Otter
1.5lb Carared
Mash temp 66 celsius (2 hours for max extraction)
11 cups dextrose
1kg frozen tropical fruit (pineapple, mango, dragon fruit, passion fruit)


Cheers!

 

[DuncB]

When did you add the fruit and sugar? 1044 to 0.994 is only 6.56 %

Regarding the all you can eat sugar buffet there is a lot of sugar on the table! Have you compensated for the temperature 35 c and the hydrometer?

Very surprised that this yeast ferments everything to get to 0.994 it will be bone dry like a brut ipa made with enzymes.

 

[monkeymath]

I'm so confused by these numbers. Like... What?!
And what does the maximum alcohol tolerance have to do with your attenuation?!

Let me reiterate: What ?!

 

[DuncB]

I'm wondering refractometer?

 

[coolmug]

When did you add the fruit and sugar? 1044 to 0.994 is only 6.56 %

Regarding the all you can eat sugar buffet there is a lot of sugar on the table! Have you compensated for the temperature 35 c and the hydrometer?

Very surprised that this yeast ferments everything to get to 0.994 it will be bone dry like a brut ipa made with enzymes.

I added the sugar during the boil, and the frozen fruit after the boil. Nope, I said 0.94...the hydrometer is sinking nicely

Apologies, but what do you mean by compensated for the temp 34c and the hydrometer? Like how did I do it?

 

[coolmug]

I'm so confused by these numbers. Like... What?!
And what does the maximum alcohol tolerance have to do with your attenuation?!

Let me reiterate: What ?!

What's confusing about the numbers specifically? I just mentioned the max alcohol tolerance of the yeast as a reference for the ABV values I have given. As in, I may try to get the FG to be 0.92...thus giving an idea how high the ABV could possibly go.

 

[DuncB]

@coolmug
Your figures do not compute in brewersfreind. If your OG when you pitched yeast was 1.044 (corrected to 20c is 1.045) and has gone to 0.994 the max alcohol you could get is 6.69%.

 

[coolmug]

@coolmug
Your figures do not compute in brewersfreind. If your OG when you pitched yeast was 1.044 (corrected to 20c is 1.045) and has gone to 0.994 the max alcohol you could get is 6.69%.

I've attached the readings. This might help.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

It is mathematically impossible to get 13.65% from an OG of 1.044

 

[coolmug]

It is mathematically impossible to get 13.65% from an OG of 1.044

What do you mean? Of course it is. I know how to use a hydrometer.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

So explain the 249% attenuation in your graphic?

 

[DuncB]

I've not managed to get a beer yeast to ferment much below 1.000 even with glucoamylase for a brut ipa. Some of my wine kits white fermented to 0.994 but thats a wine yeast.
In brewers freind your ingredients should give you an original gravity of 1.086 at 75% efficiency

You appear to have an efficiency of 17.42% which isn't possible given that sugar dissolves and if you just put that sugar in 6 gallons of water you'd have an OG of 1.033.

 

[coolmug]

So explain the 249% attenuation in your graphic.

I'm not going to argue with someone that doesn't understand.

I've been brewing for years I know what I'm doing, but I will entertain your criticism...the formula doesn't work for higher gravity yeasts:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/how-to-calculate-high-attenuation.429291/#post-5472425
Of course it's not actually 249% in reality.

 

[DuncB]

@coolmug
Have a look at your hydrometer, it is unique, most do not read below 0.990

You appear to have a reading of 0.940 which would submerge below the beer most hydrometers so how do you read it.

I would suggest you should have entered at best this screen shot and note the extra digit in FG.

 

[DuncB]

The above also does not explain how you managed to get such a highly attenuative wort from a 2 hour mash at 66c.

Tell us your secrets to this achievement.

 

[DuncB]

Have looked at that thread linked above.

You have a low abv beer so not so relevant and it says accuracy within 3% of the answer.

It hasn't attenuated to 0.940

This would mean 6.69 with a variance of 3% either side ie 6.89 to 6.49.

 

[coolmug]

Have looked at that thread linked above.

You have a low abv beer so not so relevant and it says accuracy within 3% of the answer.

It hasn't attenuated to 0.940

This would mean 6.69 with a variance of 3% either side ie 6.89 to 6.49.

OK this might clear any confusion. I've attached photos...the first is the OG, and the second is FG. The top of the ruler is where I took the reading. I'm willing to be completely lambasted if I was reading incorrectly

 

[coolmug]

The above also does not explain how you managed to get such a highly attenuative wort from a 2 hour mash at 66c.

Tell us your secrets to this achievement.

There's also 11 cups of dextrose I mentioned. But yeah, look at the photos I attached to your other response and let me know if I had it wrong.

 

[DuncB]

The scale for gravities above 1.000 starts reading 10.

That is 1.010, hence 20 = 1.020

Below 1.000 again the 90 reading is really 0.990

Hence that reading is 0.994 not 0.94.

Roughly looking at your hydrometer 0.940 would be at the top of the picture ( the 2nd one).

So yes a misread for sure of the Final gravity reading. However you should have had a much higher gravity reading to start with, there is something terribly wrong with your mash to only get 17 % efficiency. If the mash was that inefficient I'm surprised that it would attenuate that well as I say 0.994 would be bone dry.
Does the beer taste like a dry white wine or champagne?

 

[DuncB]

Your info with fruit approximation does not make good reading in brewers freind.

 

[DuncB]

The white labs yeast even with serial feedings can only get to 100% attenuation and if we assume that it really was 1.086 to start with then you'd have 12.08% if it got to 0.994 that would be 108%. If it was 1.045 then it is 114% attenuation.
You would have needed 3 yeast packs for this and a bucket of nutrients and oxgyen and you wouldn't have got this figure.
We are going to need a pretty deep dive into this to work it all out, but I think in several places the data is out by quite a lot and we might not be able to go back to the moment of creation.

 

[coolmug]

The white labs yeast even with serial feedings can only get to 100% attenuation and if we assume that it really was 1.086 to start with then you'd have 12.08% if it got to 0.994 that would be 108%. If it was 1.045 then it is 114% attenuation.
You would have needed 3 yeast packs for this and a bucket of nutrients and oxgyen and you wouldn't have got this figure.
We are going to need a pretty deep dive into this to work it all out, but I think in several places the data is out by quite a lot and we might not be able to go back to the moment of creation.

Hey DuncB, thanks for all your help BTW...much appreciated. Well, I did try it and it was certainly hoppy and dry...still seeing airlock activity after 7 days, so I will continue to aerate it and test the FG. I tried my best to create the recipe on Brewer's Friend...it looks like the efficiency is now at 75%, attenuation 85%. Still not sure what was up with the bizarre gravity readings though. Let me know if it sheds more light.

Here's the recipe: Juicy IPA | American IPA All Grain Beer Recipe at Brewer's Friend

 

[DuncB]

DO NOT AERATE IT.
Just leave it until bubbling stops at a cooler temperature ( range for the yeast ) and then re sample.
Repeat do not aerate, stir it etc. You will wreck it.

I see in recipe more in weight of dextrose in cup form than I estimated so OG should be even higher 1.094 than I estimated and that makes the efficiency less than 7 %.

I think just accept that your OG was totally wrong. Otherwise you probably get the prize for the least efficiency ever achieved on an all grain brew.
I don't see an efficiency of 75% or an attenuation of 85% with any of the figures you have provided.

 

[coolmug]

DO NOT AERATE IT.
Just leave it until bubbling stops at a cooler temperature ( range for the yeast ) and then re sample.
Repeat do not aerate, stir it etc. You will wreck it.

I see in recipe more in weight of dextrose in cup form than I estimated so OG should be even higher 1.094 than I estimated and that makes the efficiency less than 7 %.

I think just accept that your OG was totally wrong. Otherwise you probably get the prize for the least efficiency ever achieved on an all grain brew.
I don't see an efficiency of 75% or an attenuation of 85% with any of the figures you have provided.

Really? I aerate all the time and it tastes fine. Respectfully, all the advice I gotten for high gravity brews says to do that. But I'm sure it's a personal preference too. Yes agreed somehow the OG was wrong.

You can see the figures for efficiency and attenuation in the recipe I posted. Unless Brewer's Friend was wrong. But that's exactly how I brewed. ABV should be 11.79, according to Brewer's Friend.

I'm sure it wasn't that inefficient...these brews I've done pack a huge buzz.

 

[DuncB]

The figures in the recipe only apply if you achieve those figures they are not a given.

Brewersfriend is right but the info given to it is wrong in your brew.

Yes somehow your OG must have been wrong stretching the bounds of possibility having read the recipe and the hops that went into the fermenter at day 0 when you pitched the yeast there may have been a substantial hop creep due to diastase in the hops breaking down the non fermentables to simple sugars.
But even still the attenuation is remakable defying the laws of nature nearly.


You will kill your beer, hop aroma colour, introduce infection and it will deteriorate faster if you aerate. Don't settle for fine beer stop this aeration practice and have better beer.

Start yourself a thread and ask " should I aerate my beer during fermentation?"

You will find very few people who will encourage you to aerate a fermenting beer ( some will say aerate essential prior to pitching yeast ) but it's not beer until the yeast is in.
Yes rousing a beer is sometimes recommended but done in a minimally disruptive non oxygen introducing way.

If you didn't use a huge starter also explains why it took time to get going, I struggle to fathom what this beer will taste like fermented at 35 celsius, bone dry , high in alcohol with a hoppy taste of wet cardboard.

 

[coolmug]

The figures in the recipe only apply if you achieve those figures they are not a given.

Brewersfriend is right but the info given to it is wrong in your brew.

Yes somehow your OG must have been wrong stretching the bounds of possibility having read the recipe and the hops that went into the fermenter at day 0 when you pitched the yeast there may have been a substantial hop creep due to diastase in the hops breaking down the non fermentables to simple sugars.
But even still the attenuation is remakable defying the laws of nature nearly.


You will kill your beer, hop aroma colour, introduce infection and it will deteriorate faster if you aerate. Don't settle for fine beer stop this aeration practice and have better beer.

Start yourself a thread and ask should I aerate my beer during fermentation?

You will find very few people who will encourage you to aerate a fermenting beer ( some will say aerate essential prior to pitching yeast ) but it's not beer until the yeast is in.
Yes rousing a beer is sometimes recommended but done in a minimally disruptive non oxygen introducing way.

If you didn't use a huge starter also explains why it took time to get going, I struggle to fathom what this beer will taste like fermented at 35 celsius, bone dry , high in alcohol with a hoppy taste of wet cardboard.

Lol so you're saying I don't know how much grain and ingredients, and temperatures went into my own recipe? Because that's how you know that the figures were correct. I posted this question out of a desire for civil discourse, not dismissive intolerance and sarcasm.

In terms of "proving" my views on aeration, I shouldn't have to do this, but here are some examples:

https://byo.com/article/fermenting-high-gravity-beers-techniques/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/aerating-during-fermentation.247850/


Either way, when I aerate, the FG lowers, when I don't it doesn't. So I don't see how that's not a way to increase ABV. I'm sure there's a tradeoff in when to stop aerating, but I don't understand how you think it's wholly detrimental.

Well if it's bone-dry (which I like), high in alcohol (which I like), and hoppy (which I like a lot), then I will let you know I've made another successful brew. I think I'm qualified to say that I like my own brews?

Again, needless intolerance of views that may be different than yours.

 

[Kickass]

I’m still trying to figure out your OG number. How’d you only get 1.044 from 12.5lbs of grain and 11 cups of sugar in 6gals? As addressed already, that’s improbably low.

Also, don’t aerate your wort after the initial growth phase. You’ve been drinking oxidized IPA for too long. Unless, of course, that’s how you like it.

 

[Toxxyc]

In 6 gallons, 11 cups of dextrose will give you anything between 30 and 35 gravity points all on it's own. Taking a very average efficiency of 75%, your 12.5lbs of malt will contribute another 58 points. That will put you around the 1.090 mark, at the very least.

 

[madscientist451]

Any chance we could take this down a notch (de-escalate) and get down to what's really important?
Beer!

I ran the numbers in Brewers Friend and I got a possible OG of 1.086, possible FG of 1.015 and 9.35% ABV.
I estimated the weight of the dextrose based on a google search that said 153.6 g to the cup.
How much fermentable sugar was on the frozen fruit was also estimated by the Brewer's Friend calculator.
So yes, it looks like there are some issues with the OP's numbers.
I recently listened to a podcast about brewing high gravity beers, the big take home tip was to step feed the simple sugars.
Note that the brewer was making 16-17% beers.
https://www.experimentalbrew.com/podcast/brew-files-episode-101-quintuple-your-power

 

[jerrylotto]

This has to be one of the strangest conversations I've read on homebrewtalk. If it isn't a troll, there must be more than alcohol in that brew!

 

[superiorsat]

Since this is a juicy you are making I would suggest reading this ( " Northeast" style IPA ) thread and the length people go to to keep oxygen out of this style of beer. I brew high gravity beers all the time and the only time I added extra oxygen was when I ran out of pure oxygen at about 10 pm on an Imperial Stout so next morning I had to run a get another can to oxygenate. Incremental feeding of the yeast ( I prefer honey ) will keep the yeast working lowering FG and raise ABV. Back in the days of an igloo cooler mash tun I had to feed the yeast to get beers over 10% but with a 20 gallon mash tun holds enough grain to get your SG just about any where you want especially if only doing a single 5 gallon batch. If I have a beer that has slowed and is looking like it might not finish as low as I want I'll hit it with a little honey to get it going again. Sometimes I will add a dry yeast with a dose of honey to finish it out which doesn't need to be
re-oxygenated to work.

 

[DuncB]

Dear @coolmug
I'm sorry if you interpreted my advice and attempted disentanglement of a gravity defying set of facts that you presented us on the forum as sarcastic and intolerant.

Quite the opposite of intolerance from me with multiple posts looking at the recipe you used, the info you gave us, also looking at your previous thread posts and seeking clues to what was going on.
Those guys from genus brewing are talking about making an old ale or barley wine not a hop bomb IPA and do say big starter, yeast nutrient and rousing to get the yeast off the bottom. You are at the blood letting side of medicine, when anyone was ill they used to bleed them. Those who survived they said it was because they had bled them. Eventually when someone compared ill not bled and ill bled they found the unbled survived more. Try rousing the yeast without aerating it that will work better.

I didn't want you to interpret it as sarcasm, there wasn't any need for that, the facts you presented seem dire or fantastical and thought you wanted some help to make good beer.

A recipe and a set of ingredients a great cake does not make.

Probably just leave it with your statement

Lol so you're saying I don't know how much grain and ingredients, and temperatures went into my own recipe

 

[Yooper]

What's confusing about the numbers specifically? I just mentioned the max alcohol tolerance of the yeast as a reference for the ABV values I have given. As in, I may try to get the FG to be 0.92...thus giving an idea how high the ABV could possibly go.

Your hydrometer won't go to .92. It WILL go to .992. You're missing a very important digit! So, if you're trying for .92, that will be impossible. Even straight ethanol isn't that low!

 

[Kent88]

In White and Zainasheff's book about yeast, they do recommend aerating with pure oxygen if the gravity is above 1.092. If the wort is above 1.083 they recommend aerating a second time 12-18 hours after pitching yeast (for those of you with the book, it's in chapter 4).

While this recipe had the potential to be a high gravity beer, it is not.

 

[superiorsat]

I agree this is acceptable " aerating a second time 12-18 hours after pitching yeast " ( not that I do it myself with the one exception where I was short but to each his own) not 6 days in, which is where his beer is sitting at from the start of this post and was planning on continuing to aerate after day 7 on a juicy IPA that I would say is not high gravity.

 

[jerrylotto]

It would depend on how active the yeast are at that stage. Once healthy fermentation starts and Krausen forms, there is no need to oxygenate again. Once you pass the lag stage, dissolved oxygen is used up during the logarithmic phase when yeast multiplies. All of the work that we want it to do is done in the third anaerobic stage. Oxygen is no longer scavenged at this point and you want to exclude it fastidiously to avoid off flavors resulting from oxidation.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Lol so you're saying I don't know how much grain and ingredients, and temperatures went into my own recipe? Because that's how you know that the figures were correct. I posted this question out of a desire for civil discourse, not dismissive intolerance and sarcasm.

In terms of "proving" my views on aeration, I shouldn't have to do this, but here are some examples:

https://byo.com/article/fermenting-high-gravity-beers-techniques/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/aerating-during-fermentation.247850/


Either way, when I aerate, the FG lowers, when I don't it doesn't. So I don't see how that's not a way to increase ABV. I'm sure there's a tradeoff in when to stop aerating, but I don't understand how you think it's wholly detrimental.

Well if it's bone-dry (which I like), high in alcohol (which I like), and hoppy (which I like a lot), then I will let you know I've made another successful brew. I think I'm qualified to say that I like my own brews?

Again, needless intolerance of views that may be different than yours.

I think people are more questioning the 1.044 gravity reading than the ingredients you used, because 1.044 is nearly impossible with that recipe.

Is it possible you took the reading at >120 degrees? Or took the reading before the sugar was added?

 

[jerrylotto]

At least let's try to at least normalize this conversation. High gravity beers generally start with an original gravity over 1.100. My bourbon stouts start out around 1.125 and end up at around 12%-14% ABV with a final gravity between 1.020 and 1.040. Mid gravity beers typically start around 1.060. My IPAs start between 1.060 - 1.080 and end up in the 1.010 range for an 8% ABV target. Even my lagers start out around 1.070. I have never had a final gravity below 1.010 with a single exception. The only thing I've ever brewed that started out under 1.050 and the only one that turned in less than 1.0 final gravity was hard seltzer, because it was basically just water and sugar, turned into water and alcohol (which is less dense than water). Any dissolved solids (salts, minerals, organics) are going to INCREASE your specific gravity. The only reason gravity readings work to calculate ABV for brewing is because you measure the DIFFERENCE between OG and FG which should be ascribed almost exclusively to sugar conversion to alcohol. So I hope you can see the reaction that we have to a 1.044 starting gravity being referred to as a "high gravity beer." You claim that to have confirmed the numbers but they just don't make any sense. That is why everyone is grasping at straws trying to find fault with your measuring technique. These data are representative of about 10 years of home brewing more than a dozen batches each year and I don't claim to be the most experienced brewer in this thread by a long shot.