Unboxing the Nano from CO Brewing

[02RedWS6TA]

Well I blew 4 kegs Friday night so I guess it's time to brew again. Have a NE IPA and NE Pale ale recipe ready, now I just need some time.

Have the new chugger max set up and ready to go. It definitely moves some liquid, should've started out with that pump.

 

[RollE2k]

02RedWS6TA: When you have changed to Chugger Max - are you thinking that the stronger pump will help with a better whirlpool - or will you be using the SSBrewTech Manifold with it?
Why i'm asking, is because most people seem to throttle the normal chugger down - but that pump is at the same time not strong enough for a whirlpool with a little thicker mash....

 

[hibbleton]

My first brew on the 20gal Nano Home yesterday was a success! My brewhouse efficiency was only 65% but no major issues. The actual brewing only took 3 hours but the cleanup was an additional hour; I can definitely get that down though.

How is everyone cleaning the final bits of grain out of the solid walled basket? And are you putting the system up on bricks or something to raise it up? I feel like that would have made draining and cleaning much easier.

 

[Horseflesh]

I dump the grains into the yard waste bin, then hose the basket out on the lawn. Then, it gets scrubbed with soap. I never get all the bits of grain out, but I just let it go. A few dried husks going in to the next batch doesn't hurt.

 

[02RedWS6TA]

02RedWS6TA: When you have changed to Chugger Max - are you thinking that the stronger pump will help with a better whirlpool - or will you be using the SSBrewTech Manifold with it?
Why i'm asking, is because most people seem to throttle the normal chugger down - but that pump is at the same time not strong enough for a whirlpool with a little thicker mash....

I added a triclover manifold with the pump and multiple valves. I'll be using the mash manifold up top and recycling through the whirlpool port on the bottom as well. It should have enough output for both but mainly because it can whirlpool the entire 20 gallons so hard it spills over the edge of the kettle. This should help clear the wort up and help keep my plate chiller from plugging up so bad.

 

[swimIan]

Maybe the pid temps won't fluctuate as much in this configuration.

 

[RollE2k]

I added a triclover manifold with the pump and multiple valves. I'll be using the mash manifold up top and recycling through the whirlpool port on the bottom as well. It should have enough output for both but mainly because it can whirlpool the entire 20 gallons so hard it spills over the edge of the kettle. This should help clear the wort up and help keep my plate chiller from plugging up so bad.

But if you run whirlpooling and at the same time using manifold above, they will kind of work against each other?
The manifold is for getting a "filter-grain bed" while beneath it you will whirlpooling the grains.. which makes them move..
At least in my head it sounds like the whirlpool will destroy the filter-bed, that the manifold is trying to create, if you know what i mean...

I may be wrong, but that is kind of how i see it. I'm probably going to bite the bullet and order a mesh-sided basket in a month or two.

 

[LouBrew13]

I don't necessarily think there needs to be so much turbulence in the mash. I used to get nice conversion from just letting my mash sit in a cooler for an hour. I love this system for equalizing temp and recirculating at the same time but conversation is gonna take place with or without movement. My 2 cents

 

[02RedWS6TA]

But if you run whirlpooling and at the same time using manifold above, they will kind of work against each other?
The manifold is for getting a "filter-grain bed" while beneath it you will whirlpooling the grains.. which makes them move..
At least in my head it sounds like the whirlpool will destroy the filter-bed, that the manifold is trying to create, if you know what i mean...

I may be wrong, but that is kind of how i see it. I'm probably going to bite the bullet and order a mesh-sided basket in a month or two.

I don't think it'll disturb the mash bed recirculating the wort under it. I'll choke both valves out of the pump back so I get even flow from the manifold and underneath the basket I will have enough movement to not allow grain/crap to sit on the element.

 

[swimIan]

The new 5 and 10 barrel systems recirculate under the basket just as you are describing. Check the videos section of the website.

 

[pretzelb]

I don't think it'll disturb the mash bed recirculating the wort under it. I'll choke both valves out of the pump back so I get even flow from the manifold and underneath the basket I will have enough movement to not allow grain/crap to sit on the element.

I'm not sure I see the point of running wort back to the top and under the basket at the same time. The grain bed is your filter so redirecting wort away from that filter isn't going to help keep grains away from the element but instead make the issue worse. You are taking a portion of that wort and bypassing the filter process.

 

[pretzelb]

The new 5 and 10 barrel systems recirculate under the basket just as you are describing. Check the videos section of the website.

Is that the video with the giant lid? In that video the wort is drained from the bottom and then directed right back to the top via a connection on the lid.

 

[swimIan]

There is a three way valve on the whirlpool fitting and circulates under the basket and on top. It's possible it's diverted to the top but the video does not discuss this.

 

[02RedWS6TA]

But if you run whirlpooling and at the same time using manifold above, they will kind of work against each other?
The manifold is for getting a "filter-grain bed" while beneath it you will whirlpooling the grains.. which makes them move..
At least in my head it sounds like the whirlpool will destroy the filter-bed, that the manifold is trying to create, if you know what i mean...

I may be wrong, but that is kind of how i see it. I'm probably going to bite the bullet and order a mesh-sided basket in a month or two.

I'm not sure I see the point of running wort back to the top and under the basket at the same time. The grain bed is your filter so redirecting wort away from that filter isn't going to help keep grains away from the element but instead make the issue worse. You are taking a portion of that wort and bypassing the filter process.

Over a 60+ minute mash I'd imagine the wort is turned over quite a few times. In this time all wort will be turned over, the portion that was sent to the bottom will still filter through the bed. I don't see it making it worse at all, it will make it so the wort below the basket is continuously moving and doesn't allow sediment to sit on the element. That said my wort is always cloudy with this system and I always have a ton of trub left in the kettle after a brew day. I'm not sure how much filtering it's doing but it's leaving a ton of sediment behind when I'm done with the mash, enough that I often plug my plate chiller. This is with a .042 to .045 crush setting on my barley crusher.

This is exactly what they're doing on the large system now, apparently they think the same way I do.

At work when filtering thick materials I often have to open a bypass around the filter due to pressure, the materials still get filtered in a short period. These are personal care products that get filtered to strict clarity levels while 50% of the material each pass gets sent back without filtering. The same will apply here.

 

[Irish-Brewer]

After watching the videos, I believe CBS's larger systems circulate above and below the mash basket. I think this helps to keep proteins off the element to avoid scorching.

After about 3 months of researching a single vessel system, I have observed the following:

CBS's larger scale systems have kettles that are taller and allow more of the grains to be submersed in liquid. My only concern with the 20 gallon system is that for higher OG beers, too much liquid is under the mash basket and the grains in the mash basket get too thick.

I decided to go order a kettle from Brewers Hardware. Their 20 gallon kettle is 15 3/4" in diameter. If anyone knows of a smaller diameter kettle then please chime in. The reason I think this is important is that the smaller diameter kettle has less dead space under the mash basket and therefore more liquid in the basket with the grains. My opinion is that this would permit higher OG beers without the grain bed getting too thick because of a lack of water in the mash basket.

I agree with Reaction Brewing (02RedWS6TA). Movement under the basket is probably a good thing and that is why I am going to have a three way valve out of my pump to pump wort back to the top and under the grain bed. I think this would help with wheat and rye beers.

I got to go. My glass is empty and I need to hit the keezer for another brew!!!

If any of the grammar is incorrect then I blame my beer. I have been drinking since I got home from work!!!!!

It is Fat Tuesday. I was going to give up beer for 40 days (Lent) but I just can't do with with a blonde ale just getting kegged this evening.

 

[molson]

For those of you crushing your own grains, what are you setting your mill at?

 

[pgk]

Really interested in how this works out on your system, plz let us know how your next brew goes.
Pete

I added a triclover manifold with the pump and multiple valves. I'll be using the mash manifold up top and recycling through the whirlpool port on the bottom as well. It should have enough output for both but mainly because it can whirlpool the entire 20 gallons so hard it spills over the edge of the kettle. This should help clear the wort up and help keep my plate chiller from plugging up so bad.

 

[jabba11]

Im interested in how this works and the value added as well. I actually have two pumps and could reasonably easily set them both up and running. The idea IM thinking is that with two pumps I could whirlpool with one and pull it through to the top with the other. At some point the flow will HAVE to go through the bed and I could throttle the pumps to get to an infinitely variable pump rate on either to the max flow rate of either. All that said more stuff to clean etc so unless it dramatically increases the efficiency in particular I doubt Id bother. Ive had one exactly one incident where I had scorch and it was 50% my own fault really the way I see it

 

[02RedWS6TA]

Think of it another way too. Currently under the basket there's no movement or very little during the mash allowing any sediment to fall out of suspension and rest on the bottom of the kettle or on the element. With circulation under the basket you will keep the sediment in suspension and in theory it should actually produce a clearer wort in the end because it should allow the bed to filter out more of the sediment since it'll never have a chance to settle on the bottom.

I should have time to brew in a couple weeks. I'll have a video to post and let everyone know how it works.

 

[wyowolf]

that looks like something that would help alot. However the pic looks like the wort would just flow out the large holes on the ends and not the smaller holes in the tubing? hard to tell from pics...or are they sealed?

High guys thought Id pop in to talk about the SS brewtech manifold. I went ahead and ordered one. Today I did an IPA that had about 18 pounds of grain and included some rice and a pound of flaked wheat. That's a pretty big grain bill for what I typically do. I ALWAYS use rice hulls. I always have and I used about 4 ounces. I used the manifold and all I can say is that first tests indicate that it is a much better option than the tube that comes with the Nano. Bed temperatures reached stability faster and were right on target. I hit my numbers exactly coming in at about 76% efficiency with 12 gallons going into the fermenter. I ran it full open. There seemed to be some back pressure compared to the tube involved which I though was interesting but the flow rate was still significant. I used to just slip the hoses over the barb ends but had to put on clamps to hold them with the manifold in use because of the pressure. Anyway I was excited about how well it worked with almost no "drawdown" at all. When I pulled the grains I didn't notice any holes or anything etc so Ill assume the grain was flowing through the bed. It was a 35 buck experiment but at this point I do recommend. Ill wait to see how well it works with a wheat beer to give ya the final word though.

 

[pgk]

A friend of mine has one of those manifolds on his 3V system and the wort appears to flow relatively even out of both large and smaller holes if the manifold is hanging pretty much flat.
Pete

that looks like something that would help alot. However the pic looks like the wort would just flow out the large holes on the ends and not the smaller holes in the tubing? hard to tell from pics...or are they sealed?

 

[wyowolf]

A friend of mine has one of those manifolds on his 3V system and the wort appears to flow relatively even out of both large and smaller holes if the manifold is hanging pretty much flat.
Pete

I guess you would have to throttle back the pump, mine flows quite a bit out of the silicone hose.. or maybe it wouldnt flow as much as i think.. in either case seriously thinking about this... the hose thing just isnt very well thought out...

 

[pgk]

Correct, we definitely throttle pump back.

 

[jabba11]

that looks like something that would help alot. However the pic looks like the wort would just flow out the large holes on the ends and not the smaller holes in the tubing? hard to tell from pics...or are they sealed?

truth they do flow more out the large holes than the small although SOME does come out of the smaller ones. Even still it "presents" the wort back into the mash in a smoother calmer way and just looking at it you can see its better dispersed id say. it kind of roils up. This thing sits on top of the bed not in the bed. That's something to be clear about I feel like there was some confusion on that point before. Having only used it once I will say that it simply seemed to work better than the tube and swirl but the jury is not out. I'm not brewing again for a couple weeks but Ill keep folks informed on whether I think its still performing better. there was no appreciable increase or decrease in efficiency though I will say that.

 

[wyowolf]

truth they do flow more out the large holes than the small although SOME does come out of the smaller ones. Even still it "presents" the wort back into the mash in a smoother calmer way and just looking at it you can see its better dispersed id say. it kind of roils up. This thing sits on top of the bed not in the bed. That's something to be clear about I feel like there was some confusion on that point before. Having only used it once I will say that it simply seemed to work better than the tube and swirl but the jury is not out. I'm not brewing again for a couple weeks but Ill keep folks informed on whether I think its still performing better. there was no appreciable increase or decrease in efficiency though I will say that.

not a big fan of the tube at all. I think this, or some sort of COFI type will work much better, and make more sense overall...

 

[02RedWS6TA]

I guess you would have to throttle back the pump, mine flows quite a bit out of the silicone hose.. or maybe it wouldnt flow as much as i think.. in either case seriously thinking about this... the hose thing just isnt very well thought out...

They're designed like they are for that reason. The holes are smaller at the start and get larger to keep pressure built on the system so they will flow out all holes.

 

[jabba11]

They're designed like they are for that reason. The holes are smaller at the start and get larger to keep pressure built on the system so they will flow out all holes.

Like I said in an early post there is definite back pressure compared to the tube

 

[RollE2k]

I have now ordered mesh-sided basket to replace the solid sided... will take quite a while before i get it, since i live in Sweden..
But anyway, i'm quite certain this will save me alot of headaches!

 

[jready]

Gang, just wanted to share this weekends brewing experience with the modified whirlpool where the site glass used to be.

I have been brewing a lot of NE style IPAs with huge whirlpool hop additions and this new set up made that even easier. I wish I had done this months ago! Easiest brew day yet.

 

[jabba11]

Gang, just wanted to share this weekends brewing experience with the modified whirlpool where the site glass used to be.

I have been brewing a lot of NE style IPAs with huge whirlpool hop additions and this new set up made that even easier. I wish I had done this months ago! Easiest brew day yet.

so what was "easier" about it? Can you define that for a little bit im curious. Were the only benefits you saw during the whirlpool? Did you whirpool while you were mashing?

 

[jready]

so what was "easier" about it? Can you define that for a little bit im curious. Were the only benefits you saw during the whirlpool? Did you whirpool while you were mashing?

Great question. I'll answer the second part first. I don't think you can utilize the whirlpool connection for the mash as it sits outside the basket. If I am wrong someone chime in.

What made it easier? First off I use a plate chiller it always made me nervous setting everything up with 10-15 min left in the boil and dropping a silicon hose in for 6 gal batches knowing that the hose was going to be in contact with the element. Probably not a big deal but it concerned me. Second the flow never seemed that strong not a lot of movement and when you got down to the trube it was more of a pile than a cone. I also had two batches of heavy hopped beers big down the pump which meant taking the pump apart cleaning it and putting it back together it was messy and time consuming. With the whirlpool port it is super easy to connect during the boil. With pump running and a decent whirlpool I was still able to maintain a boil and through 45 min whirlpool at 165 no clogging. (Including boil hops there was 12 oz of pellets in the kettle.) the whirlpool was strong and had a real cone by the time the pot drained making it much easier to extract most of the wort. I just did a waste dump this am and, unlike before, the cone of my fermenter wasn't plugged up with trub.

Clean up also seemed easier. Plus, in the past it'd never fail, that stupid site glass would seat right and I'd have to be fiddling with it to keep it from leaking.

Hopefully that is helpful.

 

[jabba11]

Great question. I'll answer the second part first. I don't think you can utilize the whirlpool connection for the mash as it sits outside the basket. If I am wrong someone chime in.

What made it easier? First off I use a plate chiller it always made me nervous setting everything up with 10-15 min left in the boil and dropping a silicon hose in for 6 gal batches knowing that the hose was going to be in contact with the element. Probably not a big deal but it concerned me. Second the flow never seemed that strong not a lot of movement and when you got down to the trube it was more of a pile than a cone. I also had two batches of heavy hopped beers big down the pump which meant taking the pump apart cleaning it and putting it back together it was messy and time consuming. With the whirlpool port it is super easy to connect during the boil. With pump running and a decent whirlpool I was still able to maintain a boil and through 45 min whirlpool at 165 no clogging. (Including boil hops there was 12 oz of pellets in the kettle.) the whirlpool was strong and had a real cone by the time the pot drained making it much easier to extract most of the wort. I just did a waste dump this am and, unlike before, the cone of my fermenter wasn't plugged up with trub.

Clean up also seemed easier. Plus, in the past it'd never fail, that stupid site glass would seat right and I'd have to be fiddling with it to keep it from leaking.

Hopefully that is helpful.

its been talked about here about whirpooling during the mash to keep sediment from piling on the burner etc. I have the ability to run two pumps if I want but am only gonna bother with it if someones experiment deems it of real value as it just adds to clean up and complexity. In the end I may just do it and see how it goes etc

 

[Horseflesh]

Whirlpooling during chill creates a pretty big pile of sludge in the middle of the pot--like it is supposed to. I suspect that if you used the whirlpool during the mash, you'd see some flour residue concentrated towards the center too, with some of it settling on the element in the eye of the vortex. If the goal is keeping the element clean, I don't know that a whirlpool will do it.

 

[jabba11]

I had thought of this too, some had said some posts back that the bigger CBS systems whirpooled during the mash somebody was doing it etc. I kinda thought that whirlpooling might actually build stuff ONTO the burner but it would depend on how hard you have the flow going. moving the wort around as much as possible I would think is a good thing and then having it filter back through the mash would clear it I would think. would help with temp stability maybe etc. On the flip not having enough flow through the mash may have an affect on efficiency. Like I said I have two pumps available so enough flow is possible in any configuration.

 

[pretzelb]

I can see the desire for higher flow if you are using a plate chiller (I moved to an IC and I'm more stress free because of it) but I'm not sure I see the need to move the wort away from the burner. This is my first electric system so I don't have anything to compare it to but my element doesn't seem overly dirty after a brew day and it isn't too hard to get it clean. IIRC it looks similar to the pictures that Kal posted on his site for his 3v system. If you are having really bad issues with junk on the burner then I'd look at the crush before anything else. I just can't see my element getting scorched during a mash unless it goes dry or if the area under the basket is overly filled with particles and sediment. I don't have a picture handy but about half way through my mash the wort at the top has already become very clear which indicates to me that the wort under the basket is also very clear. To me that means the grain bed is filtering as expected.

 

[Horseflesh]

FWIW, with about 8.5 gal water in the mash and 7.3 gal in the boil, I see no scorching with boil cruise power at 65%. (this is a 5 gal batch in the 20 gal system.) It isn't a very strong boil though, I lose 1.3 gal/hr making 6 gallons after boil and about 5.5 into the fermenter.

At 85% boil power I had minor scorching with those approx volumes... Little enough to clean, but just enough to taste, too.

 

[jabba11]

I can see the desire for higher flow if you are using a plate chiller (I moved to an IC and I'm more stress free because of it) but I'm not sure I see the need to move the wort away from the burner. This is my first electric system so I don't have anything to compare it to but my element doesn't seem overly dirty after a brew day and it isn't too hard to get it clean. IIRC it looks similar to the pictures that Kal posted on his site for his 3v system. If you are having really bad issues with junk on the burner then I'd look at the crush before anything else. I just can't see my element getting scorched during a mash unless it goes dry or if the area under the basket is overly filled with particles and sediment. I don't have a picture handy but about half way through my mash the wort at the top has already become very clear which indicates to me that the wort under the basket is also very clear. To me that means the grain bed is filtering as expected.

Ive had one scorch and it happened mostly because I had a bit of stuck mash and flow was too slow I suspect. It was a wheat beer. I did a sac rest as they recommend and always use rice hulls. It was just a bad "day". I have made it before several times and it didn't happen. I don't really have a concern about scorching even though that happened.

 

[Horseflesh]

I am in the middle of a bad brew day right now!

I mashed in and saw the temperature shoot up to 168F!

What I did not realize at that time is I had the pump on too high, and outran the mash's ability to drain. The temp probe is below the basket, and as the volume of liquid dropped, I guess there was enough energy in the element to really boost the temperature in that volume.

I dumped in the ice, turned off the element, slowed the pump, stirred like crazy, and got the mash back to 150F. The mash was now nice and loose and like a dope I turned the pump back up. It was slowly outrunning the basket drain rate, and after about 10 minutes the temperature shot up again! This time I heart a POP where the element got exposed, and I finally realized what had happened.

Despite the high mash temperature I got complete conversion (per iodine test) and taste no scorching. My mash pH is still acceptable despite the extra dilution. I have extra water in the kettle but I plan to boil it off before adding hops and starting the official boil.

So, hopefully all is well. I won't know what the element looks like until the batch is done. I hope it isn't wrecked, but it's running at low power during the mash so I am hopeful that it will be OK.

Don't overpump! I knew better, managed to do it anyway...

EDIT: All is well, the element is fine. Fortunately it was not being driven hard during the mash. I boiled off the extra water from the ice before beginning the real boil. As far as bad brew days go, this was not so bad after all.

 

[jabba11]

I am in the middle of a bad brew day right now!

I mashed in and saw the temperature shoot up to 168F!

What I did not realize at that time is I had the pump on too high, and outran the mash's ability to drain. The temp probe is below the basket, and as the volume of liquid dropped, I guess there was enough energy in the element to really boost the temperature in that volume.

I dumped in the ice, turned off the element, slowed the pump, stirred like crazy, and got the mash back to 150F. The mash was now nice and loose and like a dope I turned the pump back up. It was slowly outrunning the basket drain rate, and after about 10 minutes the temperature shot up again! This time I heart a POP where the element got exposed, and I finally realized what had happened.

Despite the high mash temperature I got complete conversion (per iodine test) and taste no scorching. My mash pH is still acceptable despite the extra dilution. I have extra water in the kettle but I plan to boil it off before adding hops and starting the official boil.

So, hopefully all is well. I won't know what the element looks like until the batch is done. I hope it isn't wrecked, but it's running at low power during the mash so I am hopeful that it will be OK.

Don't overpump! I knew better, managed to do it anyway...

EDIT: All is well, the element is fine. Fortunately it was not being driven hard during the mash. I boiled off the extra water from the ice before beginning the real boil. As far as bad brew days go, this was not so bad after all.

I always start full open but yes I pay very close attention to whats happening and don't leave the kettle till I know it has found some kind of equilibrium. As far as the temp shooting up. why did it continue to heat past your mash temp setting? The element does have residual heat when it shuts off so yes your temp can go above the set point but 18 degrees seems high. Even still you should not have had to dump ice in it since the water in the basket would not have been 168 degrees?

 

[02RedWS6TA]

About 40 minutes into the mash and so far so good recirculating below the basket and up to the mash manifold. Haven't had to touch it once, new england style pale ale.