Trying to understad Saison/Farmhouse

[RandallFlag]

Sometimes the beer world moves too fast for us old guys.

I'm trying to understand what makes a saison/farmhouse a saison/farmhouse. Does that make sense? The lines seem to be blurred, at least to me. Is it basically just a malt bill fermented with a belgian style yeast?

Is it as simple as, hey, here is my traditional IPA recipe and now I am going to ferment it with a belgian yeast?

Not really looking for BJCP guidelines, just trying to understand the style and what makes it so. I see all the hoppy saisons/farmhouses and I really enjoy them, but what makes them farmhouses?

Does this make any sense? I swear I'm not drunk.

 

[beergolf]

Saisons are a very loose style. They came from the idea that farmers made beer with what they had. So the grain bills can vary a lot.Mostly the flavor comes from the yeast. The yeasts attenuate well so the FG is usually very low and the finish is crisp.


From the BJCB guidelines:

Ingredients: Pilsner malt dominates the grist though a portion of Vienna and/or Munich malt contributes color and complexity. Adjuncts such as candi sugar and honey can also serve to add complexity and thin the body. Hop bitterness and flavor may be more noticeable than in many other Belgian styles. A saison is sometimes dry-hopped. Noble hops, Styrian or East Kent Goldings are commonly used. A wide variety of herbs and spices are generally used to add complexity and uniqueness in the stronger versions. Varying degrees of acidity and/or sourness can be created by the use of gypsum, acidulated malt, a sour mash or Lactobacillus. Hard water, common to most of Wallonia, can accentuate the bitterness and dry finish.

 

[NTexBrewer]

This is just my opinion but it seems like a Saison is usually brewed with mainly pilsner malt and uses the traditional belgian yeasts. Farmhouse ales are brewed in the same spirit but may have more adjuncs or may have two row of 6 row as the base malt. The yeast may be belgian or could be something that gives the same ester profile. I think US Brewers use the term farmhouse because it may be easier for the consumer to try or understand what it id's compared to that fancy French word

 

[Talgrath]

The rule of saison: if you use Belgian yeast you can probably call it a saison. The style is very broad and I've seen everything from dry-hopped saisons to dark saisons. Farmhouse ales are basically the same thing, though usually if something calls itself a farmhouse ale it's a bit sweeter and very light colored.

 

[dannypo]

For me there are only a few rules for saison.

It needs to be yeast forward, preferably spicy over fruity.

It must be dry to extremely dry. No sweetness at all.

And above all it should be thirst quenching and drinkable.

Just my opinion.

 

[40watt]

Only a few must haves in a saison.
DRY. I will never call anything a Saison if it's more than 2 plato.
I prefer to get it to zero.
Esters and phenols in assertive but appropriate levels. Not unpleasant and no fusel alchohol.

Otherwise I keep a certain spirit in mind.
With other beers, I use appropriate ingredients (english, german). With "farmhouse" beers I use a mixture of base malts to simulate a rustic or unrefined malting process.
I even like to pretend I can't order anything I want online.
And I always use a healthy portion of wheat oats or other cereal grains.

 

[m00ps]

Agree with the last few checklists. Saisons should have a simple grain bill usually with a good portion of adjuncts (wheat oats rye corn etc) and some simple sugar. Very little crystal malts or roasted malts (exception is black saisons). The idea is to get it as dry as possible: mash low and have little to no unfermentables. The original saisons were brewed onsite at farms ("farmhouse ale") and were given to fieldhands as part of their compensation. They needed to be refreshing because potable water was harder to get in those days. Those saisons were also typically much lower in alcohol (3-4%) than todays. Most common nowadays are what are loosely referred to as "super saisons" (~8%)

You need a belgian yeast, usually a "saison" yeast, but it is a loose style. Even "american" style saisons use a belgian strain. These strains are typically highly attenuating and have spicy esters with some ranging into fruity territory. They are great summer beers for those that lack temperature control since most saison strains can be ran as high as the 90s without any off flavors. Spices are commonly used to complement the yeast's esters. This also keeps in the whole spirit of the farmhouse ale. The idea was to make beer with whatever was on hand. Some harvests would not yield enough barley, so they would substitute more wheat and rye. If the hop harvest was a bust, they'd supplement with spices.

Biere de Garde is the less common French cousin of the saison and are typically a bit more malt forward. Relatively speaking, saisons are some of the most highly hopped Belgian ales (though still not approaching IPA territory). I've made all kinds of saisons from traditional to slants on the style (black saison or highly hopped farmhouse IPA)

You'll also see alot of breweries employing various wild yeasts and bacteria (most typically brett) in their saisons. The original farmhouse ales likely had some wild yeasts in there since sanitation was not what it is today and they were not made in a big clean brewery.

 

[40watt]

It's funny how everyone has a different way of doing Saison.
I rarely ever use sugar to dry it out and never use any crystal or roast malt.
I also never use any spices, but am willing to use flowers and herbs.

 

[ba-brewer]

What I dont understand about saisons is why saison yeast needs such high temps to finish. It does not seem to fit a farm environment in northern europe during fall or winter.

Is saison yeast suppose to be the same type of yeast from the old days when farmers actually brewed the beer or is it the yeast from the time when breweries took over later?

I am guessing the later but I suppose it could be the olden days yeasts if farmers bulk aged the beer in wooden barrels as brett and other microbes could clean up the leftovers.

 

[Gus_13]

What I dont understand about saisons is why saison yeast needs such high temps to finish. It does not seem to fit a farm environment in northern europe during fall or winter.

Is saison yeast suppose to be the same type of yeast from the old days when farmers actually brewed the beer or is it the yeast from the time when breweries took over later?

I am guessing the later but I suppose it could be the olden days yeasts if farmers bulk aged the beer in wooden barrels as brett and other microbes could clean up the leftovers.

Saisons were not always brewed in the fall or winter. In fact, tons were brewed at the end of the summer to be kept for next year. It's very possible that they had those high fermentation temps on their saison. Lots of them were brewed to be kept and then dry hopped to "freshen" them when the field times came back around. That leads to a ton of theories on the tartness of traditional saison. That's a whole different topic.

I believe saison is a form of farmhouse brewing. Farmhouse ales can be anything pretty much. Brewed out of necessity with what you had laying around. Pretty much any grain, malted or not, their local yeast (be it saison or not) and whatever hops you had at the time. It was also tradition to brew a beer to cellar for a year or more for blending with fresh saison. It made for a lower ABV, refreshing brew. This comes into play with the barrels or wooden tanks they had to age the beer. Whatever local Brett or bugs were there could give another layer of character. Could also be why it was blended. If there was too much sour, it could be blended out to be refreshing again.

 

[40watt]

Well you don't HAVE to ferment saison strains hot, but you can.

There is speculation that the Dupont strain in particular is a mutation of a wine strain.
Being next to wine country and able to perform well at a higher temp makes that idea believable.
Especially if you consider how tricky the Dupont strain can be when you get it into an all malt environment.

 

[RandallFlag]

I appreciate all the responses. This is very helpful and explains, at least to me anyway, why there are so many wildly different beers out there that are saison or farmhouse.

I have become quite fond of them for the most part. Every now and then I will try one that tastes a bit out there for my tastes i.e. too much clove or lavender, etc.

Any suggestions on a fairly "easy to use" Belgian strain that will work in my basement or is that too cool? Ambient is around 65° F.

Any favorite recipes that tend toward hoppiness?

 

[beergolf]

For yeast... 3711 or Belle Saison can work at lower temps and produce a good saison. Maybe you have to get the temp up slightly but just wrapping up the fermenter in a blanket will help. If you want an easy way to get the temps up. A tub of water and an aquarium heater works great.

Look in the recipe database there are some good recipes in there.

 

[ba-brewer]

Any suggestions on a fairly "easy to use" Belgian strain that will work in my basement or is that too cool? Ambient is around 65° F.

For normal belgian yeasts I like wyeast 3522 Ardennes, the belgian flavors are more subtle compared to the abbey yeasts and it clears very well. I have used it in the low to mid 60s with no problems. It does need plenty of head space as it can produce a crazy krausen.

 

[40watt]

Don't be afraid to blend yeasts either.
Some of my best Saisons have actually been brewed with Trappist High Gravity or the Westmalle strain.
Now I've been blending it with Saison yeasts and Brett or my house sour culture.

 

[blizz81]

3711 does great for me fermented "cool".

 

[serum]

You'll find that lots of Belgian and some French styles are quite broad and what you get now might not necessarily represent what the original style was.

I'd recommend reading Farmhouse Ales and also drinking beers from Dupont and Blaugies to get your head round the typical versions.

There are loads of new interpretations out there. Most new saisons I drink seem to be dry hopped or filled with unusual flavourings that I've not seen used in Belgian beers. That's not a bad thing but it makes it a bit harder to understand what the style is actually meant to be.

To me the yeast plays a big part, and the beer should be dry, refreshing and have a decent amount of bitterness but not be dry hopped to hell and back. A bit of cereal grain and / or brett is nice too for a more rustic taste.

 

[beergolf]

There are loads of new interpretations out there. Most new saisons I drink seem to be dry hopped or filled with unusual flavourings that I've not seen used in Belgian beers. That's not a bad thing but it makes it a bit harder to understand what the style is actually meant to be.

I agree with this. If you really want to get a good grasp of Saisons, keep it simple. One of my favorie saisons I have brewed is a very simpe recipe. 6 lbs Belgian Pils, 3 lbs malted spelt, 1 lb sugar, Strisselspalt hops. 3724 yeast. I have done this straight and have done it with adding Orval dregs for some additional brett funk. Very good, simple rustic saison.

 

[Schemy]

I'm late to this Saison party. This is my favorite style to drink, brew, and pontificate about. Maybe its my farm boy upbringing, or the fact that I'm not a very disciplined brewer. I just relate to Saison. I'm actually quite embarrassed I don't have one on tap right now. I feel empty.

For me Saison is yeast driven. And I love that you can produce a wide variety of flavors from the yeasts available.

Here is some of my thoughts on recipes for Saison

Yeast: Wyeast 3711 has been my Saison workhorse over the years. Wyeast 3724, admittedly only used this once. I didn't really like the profile I got with this. ECY08 Saison Brasserie, love the earthy profile I get with this. BRETT: I love it, and I use it. Don't be scared of it. I can go into further detail if you'd like.

Fermentation Profiles: I will pitch around 60 and let it ramp up to around 68, getting a "clean" profile. I use this for my table/grisette style, lower gravity saison.

For my comp saisons, I like to pitch lower 70's and let it free rise to the low 80's. I get a really dry (finish sub 1.005) beer, with nice ester profiles typical of some commercial Saisons.

For my personal enjoyment. OG of 1.055-1.065 FG 1.000-1.005 (7-7.8%). I'll pitch 70's and try to get it into the upper 90's if possible. I love to let these ferment in my garage during the summer. The hotter the better. I also typically let these sit in primary for 3-4 weeks. I get an extremely dry profile. With 3711 I get a great funkiness with this method I don't get with my other profiles.

Grain: I always use Pilsner as my base malt. I prefer the crispness I get with Pilsner over other pale malt. I also like to add a very low percentage of Vienna. Just helps to round out the malt, and provides some good color. Wheat, Rye, Oats, Flaked Barley have found their way into my Saison grists. I haven't used Spelt yet, but plan too.

Hops: I use a wide variety of hops in my recipes, from traditional players like Strisslespalt and Saaz to Southern Hemisphere varieties like Galaxy, Nelson Sauvin, or Pacific Jade. I really like the wine like character of Nelson paired with the ECY08 esters, really begs for some a slight hint of oak.

Saison is a extremely versatile beer, it willingly takes on fruit, spice, hops, herbs, flowers, etc........

There is a lot of good information in this thread, and I hope it helped you with your understanding of the style.

 

[beergolf]

Grain: I always use Pilsner as my base malt. I prefer the crispness I get with Pilsner over other pale malt. I also like to add a very low percentage of Vienna. Just helps to round out the malt, and provides some good color. Wheat, Rye, Oats, Flaked Barley have found their way into my Saison grists. I haven't used Spelt yet, but plan too.

Sounds almost exactly my approach to brewing saisons. The only difference is have never used Vienna, but do occasionally use Munich. Almost always have some of theother grains mentioned.. Definitely search out some spelt.

I also agree on the hops. I do prefer the noble hops, but something like Nelson Sauvin works great.

Once you have a good pipeline going using brett is a great addition for another level of complexity. I have 3 bretted up saisons going right now.

 

[Psylocide]

This is a saison:

This is a farmhouse:

 

[Schemy]

Sounds almost exactly my approach to brewing saisons. The only difference is have never used Vienna, but do occasionally use Munich. Almost always have some of theother grains mentioned.. Definitely search out some spelt.

I also agree on the hops. I do prefer the noble hops, but something like Nelson Sauvin works great.

Once you have a good pipeline going using brett is a great addition for another level of complexity. I have 3 bretted up saisons going right now.

I'd give Vienna a try. It's a subtle note, but I feel it's worth it. I usually use 2-3%. I've tried munich, but felt it was a bit too malty for what I like.

100% agree on the brett. I like to incorporate it in my personal stash saisons. I like using Wyeast Brett Brux, but also had good results with the ECY03 Farmhouse Brett and ECY05 Bruxellainis (different character than wyeast).

 

[beergolf]

I'll give Vienna a try some time soon. I have 4 saisons in fermenters now so I may not make one for a while.

For brett even just the dregs from a few bottles of Orval works wonders in a saison. I have been using dregs a lot. The list on the mad fermentationist website is a great resource.. and a good excuse to drink some bretted up beers.

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/dreg-list.html

 

[Schemy]

I'll give Vienna a try some time soon. I have 4 saisons in fermenters now so I may not make one for a while.

For brett even just the dregs from a few bottles of Orval works wonders in a saison. I have been using dregs a lot. The list on the mad fermentationist website is a great resource.. and a good excuse to drink some bretted up beers.

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/dreg-list.html

Haven't done Orval, but used dregs from The Bruery Saison Rue a couple times, really like the results there.

I think the biggest thing is to not fear Brett. I use Brett a lot, and haven't had any perceived cross contamination. I just use my regular carboys for saisons w/ brett. No issues.

 

[beergolf]

Haven't done Orval, but used dregs from The Bruery Saison Rue a couple times, really like the results there.

I think the biggest thing is to not fear Brett. I use Brett a lot, and haven't had any perceived cross contamination. I just use my regular carboys for saisons w/ brett. No issues.

Orval works great because they add it at bottling, so it is usually very viable. I also have used the Bruery Saison Rue. I often do a mix of a few different bretts.

I agree there is no need to fear the brett. It is just a yeast that can be controlled with good sanitization. I always have a few brett beers going.

 

[RandallFlag]

I'm late to this Saison party. This is my favorite style to drink, brew, and pontificate about. Maybe its my farm boy upbringing, or the fact that I'm not a very disciplined brewer. I just relate to Saison. I'm actually quite embarrassed I don't have one on tap right now. I feel empty.

For me Saison is yeast driven. And I love that you can produce a wide variety of flavors from the yeasts available.

Here is some of my thoughts on recipes for Saison

Yeast: Wyeast 3711 has been my Saison workhorse over the years. Wyeast 3724, admittedly only used this once. I didn't really like the profile I got with this. ECY08 Saison Brasserie, love the earthy profile I get with this. BRETT: I love it, and I use it. Don't be scared of it. I can go into further detail if you'd like.

Fermentation Profiles: I will pitch around 60 and let it ramp up to around 68, getting a "clean" profile. I use this for my table/grisette style, lower gravity saison.

For my comp saisons, I like to pitch lower 70's and let it free rise to the low 80's. I get a really dry (finish sub 1.005) beer, with nice ester profiles typical of some commercial Saisons.

For my personal enjoyment. OG of 1.055-1.065 FG 1.000-1.005 (7-7.8%). I'll pitch 70's and try to get it into the upper 90's if possible. I love to let these ferment in my garage during the summer. The hotter the better. I also typically let these sit in primary for 3-4 weeks. I get an extremely dry profile. With 3711 I get a great funkiness with this method I don't get with my other profiles.

Grain: I always use Pilsner as my base malt. I prefer the crispness I get with Pilsner over other pale malt. I also like to add a very low percentage of Vienna. Just helps to round out the malt, and provides some good color. Wheat, Rye, Oats, Flaked Barley have found their way into my Saison grists. I haven't used Spelt yet, but plan too.

Hops: I use a wide variety of hops in my recipes, from traditional players like Strisslespalt and Saaz to Southern Hemisphere varieties like Galaxy, Nelson Sauvin, or Pacific Jade. I really like the wine like character of Nelson paired with the ECY08 esters, really begs for some a slight hint of oak.

Saison is a extremely versatile beer, it willingly takes on fruit, spice, hops, herbs, flowers, etc........

There is a lot of good information in this thread, and I hope it helped you with your understanding of the style.

duuuuude, great reply. Let me know when you start taking best friend applications.

 

[RandallFlag]

@Psylocide You had me at hello

 

[serum]

Another thing I'd add is that Farmhouse can also refer to Biere de Garde which is a French style and completely different. There seem to more of these made in the states than in France and I've never tried a new world version but the French ones are really good.

 

[DPBISME]

I brewed a low gravity beer with all Pilsner and the Mangrove Jack Belgian yeast and called it a Saison.

I was shooting for an ABV from 3.2 to 3.5...

The recipe came out great and I plan to do it again but add some Oats and Rye to add body and some additional spiciness...

BUT: I still want the beer to be a real low gravity one...

 

[ImNoExpert]

Great thread. Subbing for this summer when I "garage" my saison.

 

[Schemy]

Great thread. Subbing for this summer when I "garage" my saison.

Did you ever "garage" a saison over the summer?

 

[secondbase]

aSaison is my favorite style. i just bottled 15 gallons in the last month and have 8 more gallons fermenting now.

My preferred malt bill is mostly pils with a little wheat (5-10%) and sometimes some sugar to dry it out. I've also done some dark saisons, using special B, carafa, and dark candi syrup to get the color and dark fruit.

I've tried many different yeasts in my saisons and love the character of 3724, especially after 3-4 months in bottles. I pitch at about 68-70°F and hold it there for the first 36 hours and then let it get as hot as it wants.

Brett finds its way into many of my saisons. I love wyeast Lambicus but have had good results with Wyeast Brux, ECY anomala, ECY Dirty Dozen, Clausenii (wyeast and WLP), and dregs from Brett saisons.

I haven't oaked any yet, but have plans on toying with different spirit/wine soaked cubes in the future.

The only time I feel fruiting a saison is appropriate is when you are aiming for a sour/tart version of the style. I've done some Lacto spiked saisons with a few different fruits (cherries, apricots, raspberries).

 

[m00ps]

I completely forgot about this thread. I started a thread on differences with various saison yeast strains in case it can be of use:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=542346

 

[MaddBaggins]

Lots of good responses. My personal opinion on saisons are light in color, reasonably dry. Belgian yeast. Like WLP565 or Belle Saison
Farmhouse is the same except a blended yeast like WLP670 or TYB Farmhouse Sour. I usually fruit a farmhouse ale.

My house saison:
10# Belgian Pale
1/2# Munich 10L
3/4# Carapils
3/4# 20L Crystal

mash low 148-152

1oz Hallertauer 45min
1oz Strisselspalt 15min

Added with Strisselspalt:
1oz bitter orange peel
2tbsp crushed coriander
1tsp ginger root
2tsp green cardamom

WLP565 fermented in the high 60's for 5 weeks.


Delicious beer and probably not a saison by definitions in this thread. I should look up the true definitions just for my own knowledge.

 

[Gus_13]

Lots of good responses. My personal opinion on saisons are light in color, reasonably dry. Belgian yeast. Like WLP565 or Belle Saison
Farmhouse is the same except a blended yeast like WLP670 or TYB Farmhouse Sour. I usually fruit a farmhouse ale.

My house saison:
10# Belgian Pale
1/2# Munich 10L
3/4# Carapils
3/4# 20L Crystal

mash low 148-152

1oz Hallertauer 45min
1oz Strisselspalt 15min

Added with Strisselspalt:
1oz bitter orange peel
2tbsp crushed coriander
1tsp ginger root
2tsp green cardamom

WLP565 fermented in the high 60's for 5 weeks.


Delicious beer and probably not a saison by definitions in this thread. I should look up the true definitions just for my own knowledge.

Holy crap you like coriander! But by definition you are definitely brewing saison. Keep it dry and brew with what you have.

 

[ImNoExpert]

Did you ever "garage" a saison over the summer?

I ultimately decided against it. Mainly based on m00ps suggestion to keep temps consistent. I guess he experienced bubble gum off flavors in saisons with wide temp swings. I'm glad I did too since our July and August was relatively mild. Temps would have easily swung 20 degrees day vs. night and I don't think my garage hit more than 90 for more than two days in a row.

My 3711 had no trouble attenuating with a 80+ initial fermentation and then finishing up at room temp.

The 3724 was another story. I eventually cranked that one up to 90-95 and it was still slow to attenuate. It got down to 1.008 (if I remember correctly) and I said "tastes good, keg it!" so I did. Didn't take long to kick, but I liked the 3711 better.

Next year I'll try the Belle Sasion strain but probably still won't "garage it".

 

[Schemy]

I ultimately decided against it. Mainly based on m00ps suggestion to keep temps consistent. I guess he experienced bubble gum off flavors in saisons with wide temp swings. I'm glad I did too since our July and August was relatively mild. Temps would have easily swung 20 degrees day vs. night and I don't think my garage hit more than 90 for more than two days in a row.

My 3711 had no trouble attenuating with a 80+ initial fermentation and then finishing up at room temp.

The 3724 was another story. I eventually cranked that one up to 90-95 and it was still slow to attenuate. It got down to 1.008 (if I remember correctly) and I said "tastes good, keg it!" so I did. Didn't take long to kick, but I liked the 3711 better.

Next year I'll try the Belle Sasion strain but probably still won't "garage it".

I've never gotten bubble gum from 3711, I have with 3724 and that's why I don't like to use it. I think temp swings with 3711 can bring about some fabulous esters. And really like when I do get the big swings while using 3711. If I can get in the 90's during the day, and have it drop to low 80's at night, all the better.

Try it man, I wouldn't steer you wrong.

 

[MaddBaggins]

Holy crap you like coriander! But by definition you are definitely brewing saison. Keep it dry and brew with what you have.

Coriander brings a nice citrus nose/flavor. I've used it in numerous Belgian styles and the occasional IPA.

 

[MaddBaggins]

I've never gotten bubble gum from 3711, I have with 3724 and that's why I don't like to use it. I think temp swings with 3711 can bring about some fabulous esters. And really like when I do get the big swings while using 3711. If I can get in the 90's during the day, and have it drop to low 80's at night, all the better.

Try it man, I wouldn't steer you wrong.

I got massive bubble gum from TYB Saison Blend. Fermented slightly cool at 70. I think my vials got too hot in shipping. It was in September last year. Temps spiked when mine got shipped. One beer was bad (massive bubble gum) the other was meh. I rescued the meh beer with some JP dregs.

 

[Gus_13]

Coriander brings a nice citrus nose/flavor. I've used it in numerous Belgian styles and the occasional IPA.

Oh I love it as well but I've never used that much in 5 gallons. At .5 tsp it was way to much for me. But that shows you how different people's tastes are!