Trouble with the trub

[tpaulsen]

Hi Y'all,
So I have been brewing all grain 5 gal batches for some time now, and am noticing that I have a lot of trub after my boil (or its not trub and I'm doing something wrong).
I use hop pellets and wirlfloc in most batches, and I have an immersion coil that I use to chill (30 minute chill time). I rack out the beer from the trub after i remove the coil and whirlpool and wait 10 minutes. I drain until the wort looks like brains and starts becoming cloudy.
I have noticed a large amount being left behind, and I wanted to know why i have so much. Today i measured 1.75 gal of trub and liquid mixed in with it.
Is there anything i can do to compact the trub so it holds up less liquid?
Thanks for the help!

 

[frozengator]

How about a Muslim bag?

 

[andrewmaixner]

Put the majority it into the fermenter along with the liquid. Lots of time for it to compact there, especially if you cold crash.
Alternately, measure the volume and use that as your "kettle loss" in your brew software system profile

 

[-DELETED-MEMBER-]

Personally, I empty the kettle into the fermenter, trub and all. All that debris just settles out in the end and I expend a lot less energy worrying about how to keep it in the kettle. I have noticed no difference in clarity or flavour between minimizing trub or just dumping it all in.

 

[SanPancho]

Totally fine to dmp it all in fermenter- unless you want to reuse the yeaast.
As to your specific question- time and cold are the best solution for compacting it down. Chill the hell out of it and let it sit. Can u fit kettle in a fridge or keezer overnight? Thats best option for compaction.

Most of that volume is hops, so try a bag first. If that isnt enough of an improvement then u can throw all sorts of dough at this problem. But kettle loss is just a fact of life unless you dump it all into fermenter.

 

[JDL]

Brulosphy has some great articles on the kettle trub and its effects on beer if it goes in the fermenter. Will let you read it but I would start there.

 

[tpaulsen]

I use pellet hops so I cant contain those in a bag i think. Next brew, I will stir like hell after chilling to whirlpool, then ill leave it for 20 minutes to compact down. Hopefully I'll have less loss. Ill report back here then to see how much that helps.

 

[splyn]

i started to simplify my brew days and use pellet hops almost exclusively. I no longer use hop sacks or worry about trub in the fermenter. i drain every last bit of wort i can, trub and all, into the fermenter. I chill with an immersion chiller and whirlpool with a pump. On Sunday i chilled 11 gallons to under 80 in about 15 min (not including a 20 min whirlpool @ 160F). After chilling I turn off the pump and let the wort settle with the immersion chiller in place. When i finish draining the kettle, i have a nice pile of hops in the middle of the chiller!! the whirlpool deposits most of the hops into the middle of the coils and the coils help to block some of the debris from being drained into the fermenter.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

How about a Muslim bag?

Are you suggesting that bags made by Islams are better than others at limiting trub?

I jest. I think you mean 'muslin' bag. But then it's probably autocorrect that changed muslin to muslim. So ignore this.

 

[soccerdad]

Even if you didn't drop "all" the trub into the fermenter, it looks to me like you could have gotten at least another gallon of wort out of there - mixed with some trub - before you got down to nothing but trub

 

[IslandLizard]

Fine mesh nylon hop bags will contain most pellet pulp. The mesh openings are around 300 micron (0.3 mm, or 0.012") give or take. Only the fine dust goes through and mixes with the break matter. Most LHBS have them, although the heavier duty ones (thicker material) are harder to find, I noticed. You can sew your own from a piece of voile. In some voile, the mesh openings may be a bit larger then you want, so look for the finer ones. Paint strainer bags from the hardware store are too coarse IMO. BTW, we used to strain (oil-based) paint through stockings, stretched over another can, back in the days.

Aside from using bags, people use hop spiders suspended over the kettle, SS hop baskets, or use a large SS filter on the bottom with a diptube attached to their drain valve. Others rely on whirlpooling, and a side pick-up tube. All methods have pros and cons.

The bags, spiders, and baskets are thought to reduce hop oil extraction and utilization (alpha acid isomerization, responsible for bittering) compared to free swimming kettle hops. I've not seen any quantitative proof of that. I regularly "massage" the hop bags in the kettle with a wooden paddle and drain them a few times so the wort inside the bag gets "replaced" with fresh wort from the kettle.

The trubby wort left over in the bottom of the kettle can be strained through one of those fine mesh bags placed in a large funnel. Some fine trub may come through, but when collected into a tallish container or glass gallon jug it will settle after a few hours and you can pour the clear wort of the top, leaving very little precious wort behind.

Now depending on how confident you are about sanitariness of your straining methods and capabilities, you can add the reclaimed wort directly to your fermentor, or for all security heat till 160-165F to pasteurize and chill again before adding. If you reheat, you may change the hop profile of those few quarts a little bit. Perhaps not enough to worry about, given the smaller volume compared to the main batch.

I often drain all the wort and trub into a (well sanitized) fermentation bucket, cover with a lid, and let it stand for a few hours to settle out, then pour the clear wort from the top into another fermentation bucket, oxygenate, and pitch yeast. I then strain that gallon of leftover trub through one of those fine hop bags and add the clear wort to the fermentor later.

So many ways to leave no wort behind...

 

[dstockwell]

I use pellet hops so I cant contain those in a bag i think.

How about using a hop strainer/spider.

 

[UKBrewing]

I had a similar problem yesterday even using hop bags, but found after leaving behind about a gallon of wort that one of the bags had split and the pellets had turned to mush which was blocking the bazooka tube.

I didn't realize people are happily draining everything into the fermentor with no issues or I would have done that myself.

Great post above IslandLizard, good ideas there to try in future, but I think i will be looking for a hop spider rather than keep using bags.

 

[IslandLizard]

I had a similar problem yesterday even using hop bags, but found after leaving behind about a gallon of wort that one of the bags had split and the pellets had turned to mush which was blocking the bazooka tube.

I didn't realize people are happily draining everything into the fermentor with no issues or I would have done that myself.

Great post above IslandLizard, good ideas there to try in future, but I think i will be looking for a hop spider rather than keep using bags.

If you dump all the trub into a fermentor, it will be more difficult to harvest (clean) yeast, if you're into that kinda thing. Plus you'll have to leave more volume behind in the fermentor when packaging. So there's a loss either way, in the kettle or in the fermentor. Now the trub in the fermentor tends to be a lower volume, more compacted as it is mixed in with the yeast and stuff, and has had a long time to settle, but you really can't reclaim any beer from it at that point. Unless you drink it right away, uncarbonated, straining beer is a no-no for many reasons, the most significant is oxidation, which we try to keep to a minimum.

Hop spiders still use nylon bags, suspended from a plastic or metal frame resting on the kettle rim. The SS mesh hop baskets are the next step. I'm looking at one myself, again.

When using a basket, there's still the issue that the wort inside the basket doesn't boil, so draining it every 5 minutes or so maybe necessary. I reckon the flow in and out through the mesh is fairly minimal too. Some people have noted issues with the mesh plugging up with break matter when recirculating with the return into the basket.

From what I gather, use a basket the depth of your kettle, or an inch shorter. If there are electrical elements or other obstructions in or near the bottom, you need to stay above them. The larger the diameter the larger surface of mesh there is for wort to permeate. At the same time, that also means a larger volume of wort that's not boiling. A 6" diameter basket in a 12-14" diameter kettle seems a good compromise, and doesn't limit the hop charge as much as a narrower and smaller (4") would. In short, the basket should be around 1/4-1/6 the volume of the kettle for maximum benefit.

 

[UKBrewing]

If you dump all the trub into a fermentor, it will be more difficult to harvest (clean) yeast, if you're into that kinda thing. Plus you'll have to leave more volume behind in the fermentor when packaging. So there's a loss either way, in the kettle or in the fermentor. Now the trub in the fermentor tends to be a lower volume, more compacted as it is mixed in with the yeast and stuff, and has had a long time to settle, but you really can't reclaim any beer from it at that point. Unless you drink it right away, uncarbonated, straining beer is a no-no for many reasons, the most significant is oxidation, which we try to keep to a minimum.

Hop spiders still use nylon bags, suspended from a plastic or metal frame resting on the kettle rim. The SS mesh hop baskets are the next step. I'm looking at one myself, again.

When using a basket, there's still the issue that the wort inside the basket doesn't boil, so draining it every 5 minutes or so maybe necessary. I reckon the flow in and out through the mesh is fairly minimal too. Some people have noted issues with the mesh plugging up with break matter when recirculating with the return into the basket.

From what I gather, use a basket the depth of your kettle, or an inch shorter. If there are electrical elements or other obstructions in or near the bottom, you need to stay above them. The larger the diameter the larger surface of mesh there is for wort to permeate. At the same time, that also means a larger volume of wort that's not boiling. A 6" diameter basket in a 12-14" diameter kettle seems a good compromise, and doesn't limit the hop charge as much as a narrower and smaller (4") would. In short, the basket should be around 1/4-1/6 the volume of the kettle for maximum benefit.

Pros and cons to everything I suppose...

The bucket sounds like a good option but not sure about draining every few minutes.

Maybe next time I will adjust the recipe for an extra gallon or so and then just chuck the pellets in and expect to leave a fair amount of wort in the boiler.
Not using bags will allow free flow of wort around the hops too.

I use electric elements and this is the second bag that had stuck on an element and burnt causing the bag to split and leave a big black burn on the element.

 

[IslandLizard]

Pros and cons to everything I suppose...

The bucket sounds like a good option but not sure about draining every few minutes.

Maybe next time I will adjust the recipe for an extra gallon or so and then just chuck the pellets in and expect to leave a fair amount of wort in the boiler.
Not using bags will allow free flow of wort around the hops too.

I use electric elements and this is the second bag that had stuck on an element and burnt causing the bag to split and leave a big black burn on the element.

Obviously you can't use bags or a deep reaching spider with exposed heating elements. I hope you didn't get any scorched flavors in your beer from that burn.

I try to contain the hop mass to keep it out of my plate chiller during recirculation and chilling. Using induction, I also have a 6" hot spot in the center of my tri-ply bottomed kettle, but bags don't seem to melt on it on touch, at least while the wort is boiling and in motion. They tend to float up even with a handful of glass marbles in them.

 

[mongoose33]

I dump everything in unless I reach the amount I need in the fermenter. That's hop residue, hot and cold break, whatever's in there.

I too had read the Brulosophy exbeeriment stuff and decided to take a chance; previously I'd tried to strain out as much as I could as the wort went into the fermenter. Now I just dump it all in. I can't tell any difference in the finished product.

What looks like a powerful lot of crap initially in the fermenter will be stirred up as the yeast ferments; then when it's done it compacts down to a relatively thin layer. Below is a pic showing typically what I get in my fermenter. When I rack to the keg, I might leave a quart behind, depending. Sometimes I'll tilt the fermenter toward the spigot to drain what I can, and it really isn't a problem.

Now, if you have 49 ounces of hops in there or something similar, perhaps it's different; typically I have 2 or 3 ounces in my beers.

 

[numberspace]

I brew 10 gallon batches and after transfer, via plate chiller, to ported carboys I let everything sit for about an hour. At that point I transfer to two new carboys and oxygenate the wort and pitch the yeast. I do that to reuse the yeast and keep it very pure. Otherwise take it all especially if you're not worried about clogging a plate chiller with hop debris.

 

[tpaulsen]

Fine mesh nylon hop bags will contain most pellet pulp. The mesh openings are around 300 micron (0.3 mm, or 0.012") give or take. Only the fine dust goes through and mixes with the break matter. Most LHBS have them, although the heavier duty ones (thicker material) are harder to find, I noticed. You can sew your own from a piece of voile. In some voile, the mesh openings may be a bit larger then you want, so look for the finer ones. Paint strainer bags from the hardware store are too coarse IMO. BTW, we used to strain (oil-based) paint through stockings, stretched over another can, back in the days.

Aside from using bags, people use hop spiders suspended over the kettle, SS hop baskets, or use a large SS filter on the bottom with a diptube attached to their drain valve. Others rely on whirlpooling, and a side pick-up tube. All methods have pros and cons.

The bags, spiders, and baskets are thought to reduce hop oil extraction and utilization (alpha acid isomerization, responsible for bittering) compared to free swimming kettle hops. I've not seen any quantitative proof of that. I regularly "massage" the hop bags in the kettle with a wooden paddle and drain them a few times so the wort inside the bag gets "replaced" with fresh wort from the kettle.

The trubby wort left over in the bottom of the kettle can be strained through one of those fine mesh bags placed in a large funnel. Some fine trub may come through, but when collected into a tallish container or glass gallon jug it will settle after a few hours and you can pour the clear wort of the top, leaving very little precious wort behind.

Now depending on how confident you are about sanitariness of your straining methods and capabilities, you can add the reclaimed wort directly to your fermentor, or for all security heat till 160-165F to pasteurize and chill again before adding. If you reheat, you may change the hop profile of those few quarts a little bit. Perhaps not enough to worry about, given the smaller volume compared to the main batch.

I often drain all the wort and trub into a (well sanitized) fermentation bucket, cover with a lid, and let it stand for a few hours to settle out, then pour the clear wort from the top into another fermentation bucket, oxygenate, and pitch yeast. I then strain that gallon of leftover trub through one of those fine hop bags and add the clear wort to the fermentor later.

So many ways to leave no wort behind...

Great post with lots of information. I think I might try a nylon sock this batch to contain the hop pellets, then I will try to vigorously whirl pool after cooling and allow to settle for 20 minutes.
I have been reading on whirlpooling, and it was invented just to deal with pellet hops (by moosehead, a Canadian brewery). It is recommended you circulate in the middle of the pot, ie your spoon is half way down the wort. If your pumping, it should be drawn from the bottom of the pot and the return should be in the middle of the pot.
I am doing a batch this weekend, I will report back on the efficacy and how much I end up supplying to my fermentor.
P.S. Y'all are awesome

 

[John Eberly]

I try to leave the trub in the kettle. To that end, I added a dip tube to the inside of my kettle drain valve and covered it with stainless steel mesh. It acts as a sieve and lets me get more wort out without bringing the goop along.

I have also strained wort through a kitchen strainer into a bucket by tipping the brew kettle out. I found this not to be worth the effort as the strainer fills up with hop residue and drains out very slowly.

 

[Soulshine2]

Realize I am new to this and maybe I have no clue what I'm talking about but from what I have read and what few and small batches I have done so far...my trub amount isn't as significant as yours. Are you grinding your grains too fine? Are you doing a vorlauf ,or sparging long enough? Are you boiling long enough or reaching your hot break long enough? Are you racking off through any type of filter screen?
I use one of those gold colored coffee filter baskets set inside a big screened funnel to filter out any of the small particles before it goes to the fermenter.

 

[tpaulsen]

So I just finished brewing an Amber Wheat ale on the weekend. I think that whirlpooling with only a spoon is ineffective, so i might need a chugger or march pump to do it right. Regardless, I gave the wort 20 minutes to settle after chilling and I had less loss. Only around 1 and a bit gal of trub between hops and break material. I'm upgrading to a full 1.5 bbl system next batch, so I'll be whirlpooling with a pump to remove hops and hot break and pressure shooting out the cold break from the conical.
TLDR entire thread;
Let your trub settle for 20 minutes after cooling to get more wort.
Thanks Y'all

 

[jabba11]

WHile I do whirpool and do leave behind some trub and other materials. I don't pay a ton of attention to it. I also do not have a plate chiller I have an IC (hydra) and I use a SS hops basket, but I cool while whirlpooling and pump straight to fermenter. I even tip the kettle at the end until the trub I have in the center starts to get near the pickup tube. then I stop and shut off the pump. Like has been mentioned before Ive never noticed much difference in my beers if there was a tun of trub or almost none.

 

[FireManDan]

Someone mentioned Brulosophy a couple pages back, and I would have to concur with them on that. Brulosohpy has just started to record podcasts as well, with their first official podcast being about Trub. It made me feel better about just dumping everything in. See link below.

http://brulosophy.com/2017/02/23/the-brulosophy-podcast-is-here/