Treehouse Style IPA's

Williams 728
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jasonfitzg

jasonfitzg

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Treehouse from Monson, MA. Their IPA's, are incredible (stouts very highly regarded as well). They seem to have a body/look that I've been unable to attain in any of my IPA's. My last used a 1 oz. bittering charge @45, then 2 oz. @10, and 5 oz at flameout for a 30min hopstand/whirpool. I split the 6 gallon batch into 2 fermenters with 2 different yeast strains. 9 days in primary, right into the kegs, with 3 oz dryhop in each. My thinking was that scale-wise, it would be similar to one of their IPA's in terms of hops...Julius, Haze, Light's On, are all bursting with flavor, have incredible body and mouthfeel, and a beautiful cloudiness. Are they just using ridiculous amounts of hops? Personally I think an 6.5% IPA with 11oz. of hops for a 6 gallon batch is crazy, are they using that much more? My beer seems much clearer than theirs. Any ideas? Malt wise, I used 11.75lb of 2-row, 6oz C-60, 4oz Honey malt. No whirfloc
 
Water profile, yeast and fermentation temps play a huge role.

Commercial breweries are also using techniques and equipment not really available to the homebrewer. They also get higher quality hops for the most part.

Take a tour or shoot them an email. But, yes, treehouse is the bomb.
 
I'm not sure if you've seen this, but there are Trillium clone recipes (BYO did one and then there's a few threads on beeradvocate)...

I know Trillium isn't Treehouse, but I do know that Trillium is known for the cloudiness. Also, they are similar quality IMO. Maybe adjust your recipe using some of the tips from the Trillium recipes?

I remember reading something about British Ale Yeast producing cloudiness? The thread on BA is "Anyone have a Congress St Clone recipe"
 
I actually used London III on one batch to see if that got me closer...It definitely looked cloudier than the US-05 that I used in the other batch. It always hard to tell when looking through a siphon hose. Funny that when I started brewing, the clarity my brew had was a source of pride...No I'm going the other way. I haven't been able to try the Trillium stuff. Treehouse is hard enough to get. I haven't reached out to the brewery yet, because they are notoriously guarded when it comes to their recipes...but maybe it's worth a shot.
 
I hate to say it, but you just need more hops. 11oz per 6gal is not going to cut it if you are really on a quest to match those beers. Also, taking out the crystal and using some cane sugar helps. Wheat is always great too

Here's some food for thought on making these juicy, pungent, hazy, but not bitter new IPAs that are becoming popular:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=548290
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=456593
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=545021
 
Im actually gathering my thoughts to give a shot at writing an article about attaining this type of hop character since I see so many people asking about it. Im definitely not an authority on the matter, but Ive had enough success to feel like I could help some struggling brewers out

if anyone thinks this would be remotely useful, im all ears
 
I don't know how they specifically get their beers so cloudy, but I have played with different yeasts, wheat, flaked grains, and adding a bit of flour to the boil lately. If you want that hazy sort of look and mouthfeel, try adding a some flour to the boil and mash (also use a high percentage of wheat malt with some flaked wheat), use Conan or London 3 yeast, and add 12-16 oz of hops (not a typo) split between hopstand, dry hop, and keg. I haven't tried replicating their recipes, but doing that has helped me replicate that style of IPA.

The flour part seems a bit nuts (at least it did to me), but it really works.
 
BreezyBrew said:
Can you expand on your technique as well as your results? This seems ludacris.
Click to expand...

I got the idea from The Mad Fermentationist blog and some reading on wit beers and kegging.

The last time I added 4oz of flour (I used King Arthur all purpose) in the mash with my grain, and added a tablespoon with 10 minutes left in the boil (only done the tablespoon part once). This was combined with a 75%/20%/5% 2 row/malted wheat/flaked wheat mash.

Compared to beers where I haven't done this (even with the same grain bill and yeast otherwise)... it is was much cloudier (I couldn't see through the bottom of a spenglau IPA glass), the mouthfeel was softer, and that thick juicy flavor that these style of IPAs are after was very prominent and upfront. I had one come on tap one week after a very similar IPA (without the flour) and the difference was night and day. That one didn't have the tablespoon with 10 minutes remaining as well.

The two beers I have tried this flour technique with haven't lasted more than 4 weeks, but they were still cloudy and juicy at the end of the keg. I'm going to try to keep one on tap for ~6 weeks to see if they clear at all next time around, but that will be incredibly hard to do.
 
There are bits and pieces scattered on beer advocate regarding trillium secrets. Jc posts little tid bits. It's like a puzzle.
Check that thread, maybe search his username, I think it's just jctetreault, and see what he's posted. He'll post about how much he uses for dry hops, hints at different techniques, just random things.
I kind of think it's awesome... In a sense of he knows people want to know, so he offers info when ppl are on the right track. But otherwise he leaves them guessing.

I will say trillium is my personal favorite brewery in ma and definitely offer what you're referencing Here in terms of super hoppy, hazy beer. Although their beer has been getting clearer lately and people are noticing.
 
I was reading somewhere recently about dry-hopping during active fermentation helps lead to that cloudiness as well. Something about the hop oils and yeast binding and it prevents the yeast from settling out.
 
m00ps said:
I hate to say it, but you just need more hops. 11oz per 6gal is not going to cut it if you are really on a quest to match those beers. Also, taking out the crystal and using some cane sugar helps. Wheat is always great too

Here's some food for thought on making these juicy, pungent, hazy, but not bitter new IPAs that are becoming popular:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=548290
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=456593
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=545021
Click to expand...

Here's another thread on a similar quest.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=517721
 
iijakii said:
I was reading somewhere recently about dry-hopping during active fermentation helps lead to that cloudiness as well. Something about the hop oils and yeast binding and it prevents the yeast from settling out.
Click to expand...

I don't know if it has contributed to my haze, but I have started my dry hopping as fermentation starts to slow at least when I'm shooting for this style. Depends on the OG, but somewhere between the 3rd and 5th day.
 
Always get haze from hop additions. My hopped up imperial red is just beginning to show signs of clearing and its been kegged for nearly three weeks.
 
Here's my Orange Juice inspired double IPA. 9% and 23oz of hops, yet super crisp and not bitter at all. Most people didnt even think it was an IPA unless I told them. I used flour for the haze which it retained even after weeks in the keg

20151013_173010.jpg
 
m00ps said:
Here's my Orange Juice inspired double IPA. 9% and 23oz of hops, yet super crisp and not bitter at all. Most people didnt even think it was an IPA unless I told them. I used flour for the haze which it retained even after weeks in the keg
Click to expand...

Is that 23oz of hops for a 5 gal batch??
 
iijakii said:
I was reading somewhere recently about dry-hopping during active fermentation helps lead to that cloudiness as well. Something about the hop oils and yeast binding and it prevents the yeast from settling out.
Click to expand...

I heard that the hop oils bind to the yeast, too, but as the yeast drop out they take the oils with them, which you want to avoid. I have no idea if it's correct or not.
 
kevink said:
I heard that the hop oils bind to the yeast, too, but as the yeast drop out they take the oils with them, which you want to avoid. I have no idea if it's correct or not.
Click to expand...

This is probably true. Considering how hoppy some of my beers are when I first keg and taste compared to days/weeks later. The less cloudy it gets, the less potent the hops are. Not gone, but nothing like the first 5-10 pulls.
 
Side note: I've got a draft of my IPA article written up with most of the pics I need. Does anyone know how to submit it for consideration? Or anyone want to proofread?

Thanks!
 
m00ps said:
Side note: I've got a draft of my IPA article written up with most of the pics I need. Does anyone know how to submit it for consideration? Or anyone want to proofread?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

I've published two articles and am working on my third right now. I can take a peak if you send it to me, or link or whatever. Submit it in the technical articles forum
 
So basically, more hops better good.

Overall looks like a great primer article. On a personal note, you really should try higher sulfate content in your IPAs and see what you think. Really helped mine. I'm a bit different than you in that I like really pungent and bitter west-cost (Stone and Ballast Point are about the only big commercial ones I truly love) IPAs, but it helped the hops seem a lot more vibrant. You can test it yourself by adding a few granules of gypsum to a pint of IPA and tasting.
 
iijakii said:
So basically, more hops better good.

Overall looks like a great primer article. On a personal note, you really should try higher sulfate content in your IPAs and see what you think. Really helped mine. I'm a bit different than you in that I like really pungent and bitter west-cost (Stone and Ballast Point are about the only big commercial ones I truly love) IPAs, but it helped the hops seem a lot more vibrant. You can test it yourself by adding a few granules of gypsum to a pint of IPA and tasting.
Click to expand...

how much gypsum do you usually use? Or do you use something else for sulfate? Ive just been doing 1tsp in the mash and 1tsp int he boil
 
I use Brunwater to hit 300ppm. I've thought about trying more but just never gotten around to it. It comes out to a fair amount more than a tsp or two I think, but my water has almost none from a starting point.
 
What is really missing from these types of threads is the fact that most breweries agitate their hops during dry hopping. You need a homemade torpedo or co2 canon to really help get on their level. I have come close with multiple dry hops but these methods are easier and require less hops.

It can be done.
 
Calichusetts said:
What is really missing from these types of threads is the fact that most breweries agitate their hops during dry hopping. You need a homemade torpedo or co2 canon to really help get on their level. .
Click to expand...


Yes, I totally agree with this. I tried dry hopping in a sanke, and I would lay the keg in its side, then invert it every day or so tiring to keep the hops mixed throughout the beer.

I have a hunch that the larger operations cold crash a lot of year out prior to the dry hop as well.
 
I'm wondering if maybe the flour gives the hop oils something more to cling on to? Similar to using flour to make gravy?
 
m00ps said:
Well I was gonna try to PM the word file but there's no attachment option for PMs.
So I guess I'll just toss it here. After struggling with trying to upload a .docx file on the forum, I think the easiest solution was to convert it to a googledocs word file.
Here's the link
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DHdW-a1DLgmWFfnlkHQ0esCF5e6Hkx0RyBHzsb9mCVU/edit?usp=sharing

I think I set the share setting right so people can get to it...
Click to expand...

Awesome article. I have been refining my White IPA recipe for 2 years now, and I completely agree with your sentiment about commercial beers falling flat. Marrying two styles of beer takes patience and practice and not just half of this and half of that.

Just curious, but where do you order your bulk hops from? And how long will they keep in a conventional freezer? I usually buy all mine from the LHBS and use them within a week so I'm not familiar with hop storage.
 
specharka said:
Awesome article. I have been refining my White IPA recipe for 2 years now, and I completely agree with your sentiment about commercial beers falling flat. Marrying two styles of beer takes patience and practice and not just half of this and half of that.

Just curious, but where do you order your bulk hops from? And how long will they keep in a conventional freezer? I usually buy all mine from the LHBS and use them within a week so I'm not familiar with hop storage.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Appreciate the feedback

I buy most of my hops from farmhouse brewing supply. They beat sites like northern Brewer and adventures in home brewing by literally 50%. I'll also occasionally get hops straight from yakima for experimental ones
 
m00ps said:
Thanks. Appreciate the feedback

I buy most of my hops from farmhouse brewing supply. They beat sites like northern Brewer and adventures in home brewing by literally 50%. I'll also occasionally get hops straight from yakima for experimental ones
Click to expand...

I actually don't have room in my freezer for hops but I've found they keep very well for months in vacuum sealed bags. The food sealer I got has paid itself off over and over again
 
As far as storage if you vacuum seal them in the freezer they should last for a very long time. Ive used some close to a year later and they're nice and vibrant smelling still. There are calculators out there that'll estimate loss of AA%. Personally I've never bothered and haven't noticed less effectiveness, but that's not to say they dont degrade over time.
 
I've drank a good bit of beer from Tired Hands here in Philly, and the beers you describe sound very similar to their style. I've even tried my hand at a clone which came out pretty good but still a bit short. My brew was based on this great article: http://www.alesoftheriverwards.com/2015/08/tired-hands-hophands-clone-revisted.html

I think the keys are:
* Use flaked or golden oats for mouthfeel.
* Use English Ale yeast (Tired Hands uses Wyeast London Ale III and I do to) for the fruity character and cloudiness it brings.
* Use more hops than seems sane. If you aren't buying hops by the pound you shouldn't even attempt these styles because you will go broke. Get a cheap vacuum sealer, buy in bulk.
 
thespiff said:
I've drank a good bit of beer from Tired Hands here in Philly, and the beers you describe sound very similar to their style. I've even tried my hand at a clone which came out pretty good but still a bit short. My brew was based on this great article: http://www.alesoftheriverwards.com/2015/08/tired-hands-hophands-clone-revisted.html

I think the keys are:
* Use flaked or golden oats for mouthfeel.
* Use English Ale yeast (Tired Hands uses Wyeast London Ale III and I do to) for the fruity character and cloudiness it brings.
* Use more hops than seems sane. If you aren't buying hops by the pound you shouldn't even attempt these styles because you will go broke. Get a cheap vacuum sealer, buy in bulk.
Click to expand...

That's basically what I try to say in that article im working on. Only other things I added are:
- get FG as low as possible. mash low and use some cane sugar (esp for DIPAs)
- use some wheat if you arent using a decent amount of oats
- keep boil additions in check
 
I have some interesting results from my last batch...The London III definitely made a difference, and also seems to have a fruitier nose (pineapple/mango). Below is the London III. I'll post 05 pics later. I did dry hop in the keg, but think dry-hopping at the end of active ferm would be better, and result in less clogged dip tubes, and less vegetal tastes (only slightly tasted in this case). Both beers were very, very good, and very treehouse/artisan craft house style...Thick, fruity, etc...Next time dryhop in 2 stages (end of ferm, and then pull hops and add second stage dry in primary bucket before transferring)

IMG_0862.JPG
 
Really intrigued by the idea of adding flour. Think that'd work in other styles? I'm thinking of brewing a low IBU but hoppy (big hop stand at 180 degrees, just a little bittering) American wheat. Good fit for adding flour?
 
I dunno. Flour in beer to make it intentionally cloudy? That seems far out man.
 

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