Training Wheels Berliner - good intro to sours

Williams 728
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k1ngl1ves said:
DMS? Nah! I boil for at least 30-45 minutes if AG. If it's extract, I just heat it to 180 then transfer it to the keg. No cream corn sours for me! Lol!

:mug:
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FWIW Ive always skipped the boil and rolled with 180 for 30min on my AG sours. Granted I use an IC so theres a decent amount of time where the kettle is left open. All of this has definitely left me more confused about how DMS issues actually happen though. Also makes me wonder if lacto might have any influence on those compounds.
 
Made a starter with OYL-605
Looks like everything settled at the bottom. Tasted sweet, smelled like feet. No souring after 24 hours.
Is this normal?
I plan to proceed, but fear if this 605 is not working will have to toss something else in
 
Pyg said:
Made a starter with OYL-605
Looks like everything settled at the bottom. Tasted sweet, smelled like feet. No souring after 24 hours.
Is this normal?
I plan to proceed, but fear if this 605 is not working will have to toss something else in
Click to expand...


Sounds like too much oxygen got in. It should smell almost like lemon iced tea. Not sure how old your pack was but with older packs I get better results letting the starter sit 2-3 days to build up the lacto. A couple ideas...

-Give it another day to get going then check back. If too much air got in them this won't help it'll actually get worse with time.


-Bring the ph of a fresh 1L of wort down to 4.5 then add a little of your previous starter to it.

-Buy new lacto


I'd probably try option 2 to see if you can use the lacto you have to build up a clean starter. If not you'll have to start over with a fresh culture.
Don't give up it takes a little trial and error to dial things in. I just had to dump about 2bbl worth of Berliner not too long ago trying to figure out how to scale things to a bigger system. Made my adjustments and nailed it on the second try. All part of the learning curve.
 
KeyWestBrewing said:
Sounds like too much oxygen got in. It should smell almost like lemon iced tea. Not sure how old your pack was but with older packs I get better results letting the starter sit 2-3 days to build up the lacto. A couple ideas...

-Give it another day to get going then check back. If too much air got in them this won't help it'll actually get worse with time.


-Bring the ph of a fresh 1L of wort down to 4.5 then add a little of your previous starter to it.

-Buy new lacto


I'd probably try option 2 to see if you can use the lacto you have to build up a clean starter. If not you'll have to start over with a fresh culture.
Don't give up it takes a little trial and error to dial things in. I just had to dump about 2bbl worth of Berliner not too long ago trying to figure out how to scale things to a bigger system. Made my adjustments and nailed it on the second try. All part of the learning curve.
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According the owner of Omega Yeast OYL-605 is "oxygen tolerant".

Anyway I pitched the OYL-605 to the post boil once it hit 90, have had it sitting in a 80f water bath for nearly 48 hours.
The pH (as of yesterday ) was 4.0. Don't know if that is good or bad.
I will rack, boil and pitch yeast!
 
KeyWestBrewing said:
How low you go depends on your preference. My last batch soured down to 3.16 and while I love it its too much for some people.
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I was advised not to let the Omega 605 work more than 48 hours, to avoid the growth of unwanted bugs.
I am going to let it only go 48 hours. If it is not enough I will let it go longer next time

Edit-right now I am at 3.6
Swmbo wants me to pull a gallon out and let that go another 24 hours
 
Pyg said:
I was advised not to let the Omega 605 work more than 48 hours, to avoid the growth of unwanted bugs.
I am going to let it only go 48 hours. If it is not enough I will let it go longer next time

Edit-right now I am at 3.6
Swmbo wants me to pull a gallon out and let that go another 24 hours
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Sorry I'm a bit late on the reply at this point. How'd things turn out?

I usually start my batches on Friday and finish them on Monday. You may be happy with where its at at 48 hours but you can go a bit longer if you want.
 
KeyWestBrewing said:
Sorry I'm a bit late on the reply at this point. How'd things turn out?



I usually start my batches on Friday and finish them on Monday. You may be happy with where its at at 48 hours but you can go a bit longer if you want.
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I ended up racking and boiling 4 gallons on Sunday (24hrs) and did the same for the final gallon Monday (72)
So far all is well
 
Just came across this and would like to try it. I know it says to avoid oxygen when pitching the lacto. I would be doing a 2.5 gallon batch. Curious if I can just pitch the lacto in my 5 gallon brew kettle, cover with plastic wrap and then kettle lid on top of that to help stop anything from getting in, and then already be in my kettle to pasteurize a few day later.
 
treacheroustexan said:
Just came across this and would like to try it. I know it says to avoid oxygen when pitching the lacto. I would be doing a 2.5 gallon batch. Curious if I can just pitch the lacto in my 5 gallon brew kettle, cover with plastic wrap and then kettle lid on top of that to help stop anything from getting in, and then already be in my kettle to pasteurize a few day later.
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Yes, you can do that. If you can purge the head space with co2, that is even better. Adding lactic acid before the inoculation of LAB is a good practice as well.
 
radwizard said:
Yes, you can do that. If you can purge the head space with co2, that is even better. Adding lactic acid before the inoculation of LAB is a good practice as well.
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Awesome, thanks. Just purchased the OYL from RiteBrew. Will report back how everything goes!
 
raspsour.jpg
Just wanted to give an update. This is drinking so good with raspberries. The keg is about gone! Gave a few bottles to coworkers who have never had sours before and had nothing but good feedback. Girlfriend even liked it. It's a win for everyone.
 
treacheroustexan said:
Curious if I can just pitch the lacto in my 5 gallon brew kettle, cover with plastic wrap and then kettle lid on top of that to help stop anything from getting in, and then already be in my kettle to pasteurize a few day later.
Click to expand...

That was a beautiful pour! Did you end up pitching the lacto into your kettle and seal it up pre-boil? If so, did you purge the headspace or not? I'm hoping to brew this by the end of the week and I'm trying to decide if I should sour in the kettle or a carboy since I have no way to purge my kettle. Thanks!


Also: I know this is a Berliner Weiss but what does anyone think about bumping the OG into the 1.050-1.060 range, or just leave it as is?

I'm debating on 1oz Tahoma --> https://ychhops.com/varieties/tahoma <-- hops (I have a bunch from a local farm and I just don't know what to do with them. They were tested to be 2.9 AA%) in a 5g batch at KO or whirlpool just to add some citrusy aroma to the acidity of it. Yay? Nay?

Thanks everyone!
 
dawn_kiebawls said:
That was a beautiful pour! Did you end up pitching the lacto into your kettle and seal it up pre-boil? If so, did you purge the headspace or not? I'm hoping to brew this by the end of the week and I'm trying to decide if I should sour in the kettle or a carboy since I have no way to purge my kettle. Thanks!
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I did not purge. I just covered it with plastic wrap and let it sit!
 
Just to be clear, I only need the following (linked):
4 pounds of DME
1 package of Nottingham yeast
1 package of OLY-605
Based on Northern Brewers price the cost would be about $35.

I have a few questions (@KeyWestBrewing)

Step 1 - This is where I am confused. Mind you I am an extract guy, simple is good! I am confused on what needs to go into the vessel. I add the OYL-605, but I also need to add some DME? How much DME? I can make the starter in the carboy as long as I eliminate the o2, correct? I should be able to do this pretty easily through a Co2 soda maker thingy.

Step 2 - Okay, and after pitching into the carboy I can eliminate the o2 again pretty easily.

Step 3 - I do not need to worry about exposing the beer to o2 at this stage? That is, I can dump from the carboy into a pot to pasteurize and then back into the carboy without concern?

Step 4 - One package of Nottingham is okay? I think I read that someone, maybe you (?), used two packages.

Step 5 - How many times have you pulled off the original? It seems like you'd be diluting the functionality of the OLY-605 each time you did this? Or are you adding in something else to bring it back up to the desired PH levels?

Pardon the questions, just wanted to clarify a few things. I am in a 1yr sour right now, and have another six months left. I would MUCH RATHER prefer something that can be done in weeks/days!
 
TwistedGray said:
anyone want to throw out some advice?
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I'm not sure if this is 'advice' since I haven't made this yet, but:

1- the day before brew day, take 100 grams out of the original 4lbs DME (or use an additional 100g, which is what I will do) add to 1 liter of water, boil for ~10 minutes, cool and put into a container to pitch the OYL into it. I would not do this in the carboy. Find a mason jar/water bottle/etc and cover the top with sanitized foil and let it do its thing.

2- after you have made your starter for the microbes (step 1) heat 6 gallons of water to 200, stir in 4lbs DME to pasteurize, cool, siphon the wort into the carboy (IMO siphoning is superior to pouring at this step to keep o2 out, which is crucial for now) and pitch the entire 1 liter starter containing the microbes into the carboy. Purge the carboy and install airlock for 24-72 hours or until it is at your desired acidity level.

3- once it is at the acidity level you want, siphon BACK to the kettle, boil for a while to kill the microbes. At this point you can how POUR the cooled wort into a cleaned and sanitized carboy.

KEEP IN MIND that any plastic (siphon, bung, airlock, paddle, etc) which came into contact with the wort prior to boil is now contaminated and should be designated as sour equipment!

4- pitch the package of nottingham into carboy and affix a NON-SOUR bung and airlock to carboy. Given the low OG of this recipe one package should be plenty of yeast. Proceed as normal from here.

If you wanted to pull some bugs out to save for the future, you have to pull 1-2 liters of the wort out before you boil it, put it into its own container (glass is better) and top it off with a new mixture of wort (100g DME:1liter water). This process is not diluting the bugs, it is simply making them reproduce and multiply. When you decide you want to use some of this new culture, you can decant some of liquid, swirl it all up and pout ~1/2 into the new batch, then add new wort in to continue building the culture. Hope this was some use to you. Cheers!
 
KeyWestBrewing said:
The Process

1) Use the Bavarian Wheat DME to make a 100g/1L starter for the Omega lacto blend 24-48 hours before brewday. No stir plate, put on an airlock and just leave it alone. Anywhere between 70-90f is fine.

2) Brewday - heat 6gal water to 200f, add DME and stir until its all dissolved. Thats it! Cool the batch down to 90f, rack to fermenter and pitch 1L lacto starter.

*Very Important - you need to be very careful not to oxygenate the wort or this could ruin the beer. To limit oxygen exposure use a smaller fermenter, or up the batch size, so that the fermenter is filled completely full leaving only about an inch of headspace between the wort and airlock. OYL605 doesn't krausen so don't be worried.

3) Leave fermenter in the 70-90f range for 24-72 hours, depending on how sour a beer you want. You can do this to taste if you'd like. Once sourness has been achieved, rack back to the kettle and pasteurize for 30mins at 180f.

4) Cool, pitch plenty of healthy yeast, and proceed like any other beer. At this point you can oxygenate the wort before pitching your yeast if you'd like. Thats all there is to it you'll shortly have an easy going Berliner to drink!!

5) This is optional but if you'd like to keep the lacto culture going pull off 1-2L of wort before you pasteurize the batch. You can top this off with fresh wort basically bringing you back to step 1.
Click to expand...


Two questions for someone:

1. In step one the original instructions call for an airlock on the starter; however, is that necessary? As long as it is sealed I should be fine, right?

2. Why can't I just leave the wort in the kettle (from Step 2), pitch the starter, and then bring to a boil (Step 3). I guess the concern is that their will be Co2 that needs discharged and if I seal the kettle there is no way to discharge said Co2? Just trying to avoid transferring it twice; although, not an end all be all.

Tagging you folks as you seemed to either have done this before or can provide some helpful input.
@Pyg @treacheroustexan @radwizard @dawn_kiebawls
 
TwistedGray said:
Two questions for someone:

1. In step one the original instructions call for an airlock on the starter; however, is that necessary? As long as it is sealed I should be fine, right?

2. Why can't I just leave the wort in the kettle (from Step 2), pitch the starter, and then bring to a boil (Step 3). I guess the concern is that their will be Co2 that needs discharged and if I seal the kettle there is no way to discharge said Co2? Just trying to avoid transferring it twice; although, not an end all be all.

Tagging you folks as you seemed to either have done this before or can provide some helpful input.
@Pyg @treacheroustexan @radwizard @dawn_kiebawls
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I didn't even use a starter in mine to be honest. I just pitched directly into my kettle and let it ferment in the kettle with plastic wrap over top of it. Then a few days later brought it to a boil. Turned out great. So to answer your 2nd question, you can. Good luck!
 
treacheroustexan said:
I didn't even use a starter in mine to be honest. I just pitched directly into my kettle and let it ferment in the kettle with plastic wrap over top of it. Then a few days later brought it to a boil. Turned out great. So to answer your 2nd question, you can. Good luck!
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That's a relief, but I've already got the starter in a sous vide bath so I'll let that ride out until tomorrow.

I didn't see much logic in siphoning if you can just keep it in the kettle. I suppose the concern is O2 in the headspace though? I don't plan on touching the kettle until the boil, BUT I did want to check ph... Maybe I'll just run it for 36 hrs before boil to error on the side of caution (ie: overly sour).
 
TwistedGray said:
That's a relief, but I've already got the starter in a sous vide bath so I'll let that ride out until tomorrow.

I didn't see much logic in siphoning if you can just keep it in the kettle. I suppose the concern is O2 in the headspace though? I don't plan on touching the kettle until the boil, BUT I did want to check ph... Maybe I'll just run it for 36 hrs before boil to error on the side of caution (ie: overly sour).
Click to expand...
Yeah I think I only left mine with lacto for 26 hours or so and it was perfect. I also racked it onto raspberries. Drank the last bottle a few nights ago.

IMG_20180225_221755.jpg
 
@treacheroustexan - How did you maintain temp in Step 3 if you also left it in the kettle, and at what temp did you toss in the OLY-605? I assume you brought the kettle down to 90ish before tossing, but how did you keep the entire kettle in that range?

KeyWestBrewing said:
3) Leave fermenter in the 70-90f range for 24-72 hours, depending on how sour a beer you want. You can do this to taste if you'd like. Once sourness has been achieved, rack back to the kettle and pasteurize for 30mins at 180f.
Click to expand...
 
treacheroustexan said:
I used my grainfather so it was easy just setting the controller to 90.
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Ah, well ... in that case I'll ... I dunno what to do.

I don't have a way to temp control the kettle at 90°, BUT I do have a way in a carboy. I was just trying to avoid the racking back and forth.

Do you see any issues with it dropping to 60 or lower in the kettle? Maybe it'll just take longer with the starter this way?
 
Ah fook it, siphoned out in a carboy and will siphon back into the kettle, just trying to cool it down in the carboy now...seems to be the issue. I also cannot find what is the max temp I catch the lacto starter at...Google ain't be all that helpful right now.
 
TwistedGray said:
Ah, well ... in that case I'll ... I dunno what to do.

I don't have a way to temp control the kettle at 90°, BUT I do have a way in a carboy. I was just trying to avoid the racking back and forth.

Do you see any issues with it dropping to 60 or lower in the kettle? Maybe it'll just take longer with the starter this way?
Click to expand...
Shouldn't have any issues letting it cool. I'd pitch say pitching around 95-100 is safe if it's going to naturally drop.
 
treacheroustexan said:
Shouldn't have any issues letting it cool. I'd pitch say pitching around 95-100 is safe if it's going to naturally drop.
Click to expand...

I actually dug through my wife's microbiology lab notes to see the functional temperature of lacto, but regardless I pitched around 90°. It's now in a sous vide bath which should hold it at around 100°. That is, I have the sous vide running at 100°, but I might bump that to 110° due to the presumed heat loss during the exchange. I doubt that'll matter much...sh*t part is that my ph strips can't pick up that low of a ph, doh! Wasn't prepped for that :(
 
Starter made with (3) L. Plantarum Probiotic pills in 1.040 1L for 7 days kept in 70-80 range

Followed steps on original post but lowered volume to 3gal and DME to 3pds
Decanted 1L down to 300ml, swirled and pitched into 1.045 wort @ 118
Wrapped with a towel, sealed with plastic wrap and into stove for 24 hours, temp dropped to 85, pH reads 3.5

Brought back to a boil and added 7 grams of Willamette (5.1%) for 15min, chilled with IC to 70 and pitched 6gms of Us-05 @ 1.052

Loving this batch so far, get a nice clean sour grainy aroma and lactic acid is nicely perceived on the palate. Cant wait till this ferments out! Planning on killing yeast and adding 20-30% fruit nectar/juices to back sweeten and then force carb in keg!
 
TwistedGray said:
I actually dug through my wife's microbiology lab notes to see the functional temperature of lacto, but regardless I pitched around 90°. It's now in a sous vide bath which should hold it at around 100°. That is, I have the sous vide running at 100°, but I might bump that to 110° due to the presumed heat loss during the exchange. I doubt that'll matter much...sh*t part is that my ph strips can't pick up that low of a ph, doh! Wasn't prepped for that :(
Click to expand...
How's it going so far?
 
treacheroustexan said:
How's it going so far?
Click to expand...

So far so good, yeast was pitched on the 10th and it's still going strong.

I pulled a gallon out when transferring, added a salt/coriander tea and will taste that post fermentation to determine if I need to add more from the "stock" kettle sour to tone down the gose addition.

The only concern that I have is that I didn't get any hints of sour taste when tasting the wort when transferring. I didn't have any Ph strips on hand that could read that low level either, so hope I'm not just making a whateverthiswouldbewithoutbeingsour beer. Should the wort have some sourness to it after the pasteurizing stage?

Update - sloshed around the carboy and you do get some sour aromas...didn't catch it on the 1gallon.
 
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