Towel under lid to absorb DMS?

[spencerholm31]

Hello all,
I'm using a kitchen stove for boiling wort because of a late work schedule during dark winter months. Usually I use propane outdoors. Anyway, I've been reading about DMS that dissipates from wort during the boil. Since my stovetop doesnt seem to hold a rolling boil without the lid on, I'm trying to think of ways to prevent that DMS steam from condensing on the lid and dripping right back into the wort.

Right now, I'm doing an experimental batch with a towel underneath the kettle lid. That way, my wort stays hot and boiling. Also, I periodically move the damp towel so that a new dry spot lays under the lid. As I rotate these towels over the course of the boil, I'm hoping that each new dry towel is able to absorb steam and DMS within the steam.

Has anyone tried this method before? Any doubters? Any hopers? I'll check in in a week or two when I can taste a sample to see if a lot of DMS is present.
PEACE

 

[Jaybird]

I am very interested to see how this turns out. I have a LOT of customers in the store that don't have the ability to brew on a big burner and they sometimes talk about their stove top not being able to get a full batch to a rolling boil just like you. Please keep us posted.

Cheers
Jay

 

[doug293cz]

Be very careful. The stove elements may not be powerful enough to get a good boil, but they are definitely hot enough to light a towel on fire should it come in contact with the burner.

Brew on

 

[radwizard]

How big of batches are you doing in the kitchen? I have a crappy kitchen stove. I brew Five Gallon batches outside on a propane system and Three Gallon batches in my kitchen.

I think it would be wiser to decrease the batch size then compromise the methods.

 

[iijakii]

I'm very interested to hear the results. My first thoughts are just that the towels will saturate way too quickly due to how much steam is being boiled off.

 

[blizz81]

How about trying one of those heat stick thingees to help?

 

[MaxStout]

Have you considered using an electric immersion heater to help the boil along?

 

[djt17]

How about trying one of those heat stick thingees to help?

I purchased a Hot Rod; works great to assist my stove. http://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/hotrod.htm

I think a towel would become saturated & begin dripping.

 

[Hello]

I'd be interested to hear the results. Your better bet though is to take the advice of those who mentioned the heat stick to assist in getting your wort up to a rolling boil.

 

[spencerholm31]

Thanks for the replies. Just to clarify: I ended up doing this experimental batch in a 1650 W electric turkey fryer. As a lot of you said, the heat stick makes most logical sense here, a lot of other forums mention needing an additional heat source for electric turkey fryers (although turkey fryers can bring oil to 375F, water is a different story).

I'll have more concrete results on DMS taste pretty soon, the fermentation took off vigorously after about 24-36 hours in the fermenter. I'm using WLP500 at 70F.

As far as visual observations during the boil and my exact methods: I washed and dried 5 regular towels. The turkey fryer was way too weak to get a full 5 gallon boil going so I split my batch in half. Each session, I had 3.5 gallons of wort boiling for sixty minutes. With the lid on the turkey fryer, I was able to get the wort to a rolling boil, but when I lifted the lid the boil dissipated after about 15 seconds. Also, when I lifted the turkey fryer lid, I saw huge drops of water drop back into the wort. These drops of steam had condensed on the turkey fryer lid and probably held plenty of DMS. I tried propping the lid barely open but I just couldnt hold the rolling boil that I wanted while allowing enough steam to escape.

Consequently, I loosely draped the first towel over the top of the turkey fryer with the lid off. The towel was not drooping down to the wort, instead it was pretty flat draped across the lid. After about 5 minutes, I noticed that plenty of steam was escaping from the edges of the towel. This seemed reassuring. More and more steam looked like a pretty strong boil. After 5 minutes I peeled back the towel to check on the boil, and it was really churning! Vigorous rolling boil with a few inches of foam or krausen on the sides of the turkey fryer. This showed me that foam/ bubbling had reached about 3 inches above the surface of the wort. Also, when I removed the towel, the boil continued much longer than when I had removed the lid. At 215F, the boil didn't dissipate for 40 seconds. Maybe the towel acted as a better insulating lid?

After 15 minutes, I noticed that this towel seemed to be somewhat soaked. It had captured plenty of steam, but was certainly not drenched or soggy. Moreso, it was just a little bit damp. After 15 minutes, I switched out the towel for a new dry one.

I WISH I WISH I WISH I had some sort of scientific tools or test strips to measure the amount of DMS in these towels, but I simply don't. All I can say is that they had absorbed steam but were not saturated enough to be leaking back into the wot. That was my goal. Also, they definitely insulated the wort boil like a lid would.

 

[pwnshop]

i boil in my kitchen on the stove and have done plenty of 90 minute boils with mostly pilsner recipes.

I have never had an issue with DMS in my beers.

I bring the wort to a boil with the lid on since it brings it up to boiling much faster, then i crack the lid to allow the steam to escape for the rest of the boil. the lid covers about half of the pot, maybe a little more.

I have done the towel thing before but there was no difference in the outcome so i don't see a point to it.

Hopefully that helps you. my stove is really not very powerful, but once the boil is rolling it doesnt take much to keep it there.

 

[spencerholm31]

i boil in my kitchen on the stove and have done plenty of 90 minute boils with mostly pilsner recipes.


I have done the towel thing before but there was no difference in the outcome so i don't see a point to it.

Hey pwnshop: this is interesting. I'm downsizing back to my 20 quart aluminum kettle on an indoor gas stove. So you keep the lid halfway on? (I've even read that pilsen malts can be the culprit of high DMS taste)
Also, what volume boils are you doing? I've been able to get 3.5 gallons of wort boiling without the lid on. But that pretty much limits me to extract 5 gallon batches with topping off. Or else I seperate my BIAB 5 gallon batches into two

 

[KartRacer54]

It is difficult to get enough heat in the winter months outdoors and considered cutting the center out of the regular lid. This would open a large amount to release DMS/steam but cover an extra percentage of the pot to retain heat. Any thoughts on this approach?

 

[Gavin C]

DMS removal is just one desirable component of the boil.

Without the volume loss via the steam there will be no concentration of the wort and increase in flavors, colors etc.

I reckon you may be losing sight of the woods for the trees.

I would let the heating capacity of my stove dictate the batch-size and not let my batch-size and boil volume dictate my methods.

 

[KartRacer54]

Volume is volume. Boil off to get a specific volume is not necessary IMO.
If boil off to attain a specific volume was necessary then extract brewing would not be a workable process.
Boil is to extract flavor and remove unwanted compounds.

 

[JonM]

Just make smaller batches if the stovetop can't handle big batches.

 

[Gavin C]

Volume is volume. Boil off to get a specific volume is not necessary IMO.
If boil off to attain a specific volume was necessary then extract brewing would not be a workable process.
Boil is to extract flavor and remove unwanted compounds.

With extract all the boiling and its associated maillard reactions, caramelization and concentration of flavors have already been carried out by the maltser. Completely different processes and pointless to compare all-grain brewing with extract in the respect.

With extract brewing all that remains to do is to dilute these compounds to the desired gravity, isomerise the hop acids and sanitize the constituent ingredients of the wort via the boil.

With all-grain brewing boiling and the volume reduction that occurs is hugely important. Just like making a sauce. Heating and reduction in water volume result in magnification and formation of the desired flavor compounds.

Easy to test. Taste the preboil wort, taste the post boil wort on a minimally hopped beer. The difference should be striking. Works with heavier hopped beers but the bitterness makes it more of a taste challenge.

 

[SleepyCreekBrews]

heres a good read about DMS and ways to minimize it in your brew.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/04/10/dimethyl-sulfides-dms-in-home-brewed-beer/

 

[KartRacer54]

With extract all the boiling and its associated maillard reactions, caramelization and concentration of flavors have already been carried out by the maltser. Completely different processes and pointless to compare all-grain brewing with extract in the respect.

With extract brewing all that remains to do is to dilute these compounds to the desired gravity, isomerise the hop acids and sanitize the constituent ingredients of the wort via the boil.

With all-grain brewing boiling and the volume reduction that occurs is hugely important. Just like making a sauce. Heating and reduction in water volume result in magnification and formation of the desired flavor compounds.

Easy to test. Taste the preboil wort, taste the post boil wort on a minimally hopped beer. The difference should be striking. Works with heavier hopped beers but the bitterness makes it more of a taste challenge.

I am following the thought process but using BeerSmith we are trained to configure the system to start with just the correct water level to achieve the desired volume after the 1 hour boil.
My understanding is that assuming I do not have my setup correct I will have to add water at the end to get my volume for the fermentor. None of this discusses boiling to achieve concentration level.
In an electric indoor system the boil off rate is lower, does that mean the beer is of less quality, doubt it.

 

[KartRacer54]

heres a good read about DMS and ways to minimize it in your brew.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/04/10/dimethyl-sulfides-dms-in-home-brewed-beer/

Thanks for the link.

 

[Gavin C]

Beersmith is a tool. You are the brewer and it is you who decides methods/process.

With full volume boils the pre-boil volume is your target knowing what you'r boil-off and other smaller volume losses are.

Planned Batch size + boil-off + trub/kettle dead-space losses= Desired Pre-boil volume

Yes you can top up to volume with water but a better idea is to sparge to reach the correct pre-boil volume. This will rinse more sugars from the grain ito your boil-kettle.

Some folks, owing to equipment constraints, will top up with water post boil and factor in the inevitable reduction in efficiency this brings. The loss of efficiency is only an issue if you don't plan for it or don't care about it.

 

[KartRacer54]

I am following the thought process but using BeerSmith we are trained to configure the system to start with just the correct water level to achieve the desired volume after the 1 hour boil.
My understanding is that assuming I do not have my setup correct I will have to add water at the end to get my volume for the fermentor. None of this discusses boiling to achieve concentration level.
In an electric indoor system the boil off rate is lower, does that mean the beer is of less quality, doubt it.

Beersmith is a tool. You are the brewer and it is you who decides methods/process.

With full volume boils the pre-boil volume is your target knowing what you'r boil-off and other smaller volume losses are.b

Planned Batch size + boil-off + trub/kettle dead-space losses= Desired Pre-boil volume

Yes you can top up to volume with water but a better idea is to sparge to reach the correct pre-boil volume. This will rinse more sugars from the grain ito your boil-kettle.

Some folks, owing to equipment constraints, will top up with water post boil and factor in the inevitable reduction in efficiency this brings. The loss of efficiency is only an issue if you don't plan for it or don't care about it.

Gavin
Original post I am challenging is the need for reduction. Reduction is a natural function of boil off.
No you would not use extra wort because you did not get the boil off to proper volume as the OG would be low. Yes would have to boil longer to get to the proper wort volume in fermentor.
Not being argumentative but your original statements simply do not add up.
Still

 

[Gavin C]

I am following the thought process but using BeerSmith we are trained to configure the system to start with just the correct water level to achieve the desired volume after the 1 hour boil.
My understanding is that assuming I do not have my setup correct I will have to add water at the end to get my volume for the fermentor. None of this discusses boiling to achieve concentration level.
In an electric indoor system the boil off rate is lower, does that mean the beer is of less quality, doubt it.

With any system electric or gas the boil-off rate is determined by multiple factors. There is no link between type of heat source and boil-off rate. A rolling boil is desirable. Evaporative losses are desirable. Some styles of beer require greater concentration of flavors and longer boils. Scottish Ales being one example.

With an electric setup (e.g. a 5000W element in the BK) a much more powerful boil than needed is possible. Not sure why you think an electric setup would in and of itself reduce boil-off rate.

You need to setup an equipment profile in your brewing software that is true to your system. Default values are rarely useful.

 

[pwnshop]

Hey pwnshop: this is interesting. I'm downsizing back to my 20 quart aluminum kettle on an indoor gas stove. So you keep the lid halfway on? (I've even read that pilsen malts can be the culprit of high DMS taste)
Also, what volume boils are you doing? I've been able to get 3.5 gallons of wort boiling without the lid on. But that pretty much limits me to extract 5 gallon batches with topping off. Or else I seperate my BIAB 5 gallon batches into two

Hi, sorry for the late response. I do all grain 5 gallon batches. typically 6 - 6.3 gallon pre boil in the kettle.

I put the lid fully on while the wort is being brought from mash out temp to a boil. Once i hit the hot break i crack the lid halfway for the remainder of the boil. if i notice the boil die down i pop the lid closed for a minute or two and its right as rain.

and yes typically for a grain bill with a lot of pilsner a 90 minute boil is recommended to make sure all dms is removed. i heavily use pilsner malts in most of my brewing and have never had an issue with dms brewing this way. i have also taken a chance and done 60 minute boils a few times and no dms.

its not gospel, but it has worked for me thus far. its certainly worth a shot for you.

Heatstick is a great way to go. my apartment is old and has super dodgy elctrical, so i dont have the balls to use a heatstick for fear of electrocution. otherwise i would have one and i wouldnt use the lid.

 

[spencerholm31]

thanks pwnshop. I do similar indoor boils and have used the same "lid halfway" strategy.

As for the towel strategy, i've kegged the original beer: Northern Brewer's all grain La Petite Orange. This beer has a base malt of pilsner (7lb for a 5 gal recipe). Without any late addition hops to mask the flavor, I am not detecting any DMS after my fifth pint.

There is plenty of haze, probably because of the style but mostly because I did not use a wort chiller or any form of rapidly cooling my wort post-boil.

I read that "creamed corn" is an off-flavor of DMS, and I will admit that I do taste a creaminess in this beer. But the creaminess I detect is similar to that of white wheat malt. In addition to the 7 lb of pilsner, this recipe has:
-0.5 lbs Belgian Cara 8
- 0.5 lbs Belgian Cara 20
- 0.25 lbs Belgian Aromatic
- 0.25 lbs Belgian Biscuit Malt

Given the malt bill and yeast, wlp500 @ approximately 70-75 F throughout 14 days of fermentation, I conclude that the "Towel under lid to absorb DMS" experiment is Plausible, as the Myth Busters would say!