Total NooB and it's already becoming too much

[specharka]

I couldn't agree more. My humble suggestion: don't try to tackle too much at once.

I know you've said you don't want to do extract, and I can dig that. Although I do still mostly extract brews, I'm beginning to feel like others have mentioned: that I'm making Kool-Aid (add powder to water, stir, wait a bit, serve) rather than brewing. My first BIAB turned out OK (not great, mind you, but OK) and I'll be trying some more once the pipeline is full enough to be able to absorb a failure or two on the BIAB front. I, too, am pretty intimidated by the amount of learning and effort that it takes to make the leap from extract to all grain (BIAB or otherwise).

SO, my suggestion is to do enough homework to brew a decent beer, but realize you'll be learning as you go and just let the learning curve handle itself. Don't expect an award-winning batch the first time around, pick one (or at the most, two) things to change or improve on each batch.

SO, maybe your first brew is all extract with some steeping grains.
NEXT, do a partial mash/partial extract.
THEN, try a few BIAB batches.
THEN, if you feel like it, try going old-school all grain with the garage full of vessels and transfers and sparging and pH checking and all the other stuff (obviously, you can tell what step intimidates me the most).

MOST IMPORTANTLY: keep having fun. This is a hobby, and it's supposed to be something you enjoy. If you stop enjoying it, don't give up completely, just do whatever you need to do to make it easy enough so that it's fun again.

BREW ON!

Forgive me an analogy here...this is like saying

"Oh, you want to learn how to drive a standard shift transmission?"
"Well first you need to learn how to drive a car."
"So take the wheel from your friend a few times and see how that feels."
"If you don't die, maybe try out a few laps in the parking lot."
"Then, take some driving lessons on an automatic."
"Master the automatic. Get a few speeding tickets."
"Buy a new car. This time, WITH PADDLE SHIFTERS!"
"Pretend that's the same thing as a standard."
"Eventually you might be confident enough to try to learn how to drive stick."
"And thats how you drive stick."

Except in this case, the brewing process can't kill you and doesn't require a license.

Go all grain.

 

[ericbw]

Forgive me an analogy here...this is like saying



"Oh, you want to learn how to drive a standard shift transmission?"

"Well first you need to learn how to drive a car."

"So take the wheel from your friend a few times and see how that feels."

"If you don't die, maybe try out a few laps in the parking lot."

"Then, take some driving lessons on an automatic."

"Master the automatic. Get a few speeding tickets."

"Buy a new car. This time, WITH PADDLE SHIFTERS!"

"Pretend that's the same thing as a standard."

"Eventually you might be confident enough to try to learn how to drive stick."

"And thats how you drive stick."



Except in this case, the brewing process can't kill you and doesn't require a license.



Go all grain.

Except that your analogy is a good one for learning to drive. Extreme but realistic.

 

[Ike]

Forgive me an analogy here...this is like saying

"Oh, you want to learn how to drive a standard shift transmission?"
"Well first you need to learn how to drive a car."
"So take the wheel from your friend a few times and see how that feels."
"If you don't die, maybe try out a few laps in the parking lot."
"Then, take some driving lessons on an automatic."
"Master the automatic. Get a few speeding tickets."
"Buy a new car. This time, WITH PADDLE SHIFTERS!"
"Pretend that's the same thing as a standard."
"Eventually you might be confident enough to try to learn how to drive stick."
"And thats how you drive stick."

Except in this case, the brewing process can't kill you and doesn't require a license.

Go all grain.

I guess I'd offer the "car" the analogy as:

First, learn to drive on an automatic transmission.
Then, once you know the rules of the road and how a car behaves in general, learn to drive stick shift.
Then, once that's down, learn to drive more complex stuff like a double clutch heavy truck or high performance stick shift sports car.

Sounds like your advice is: Take the 15 year-old with the learner's permit and put them behind the wheel of the alcohol dragster or the 18 wheeler. Other than the fact that I'm not comfortable suggesting the OP is a clueless teenager.

In the end, it's all just advice. YMMV.

Ikster

 

[BrewingTravisty]

Forgive me an analogy here...this is like saying

"Oh, you want to learn how to drive a standard shift transmission?"
"Well first you need to learn how to drive a car."
"So take the wheel from your friend a few times and see how that feels."
"If you don't die, maybe try out a few laps in the parking lot."
"Then, take some driving lessons on an automatic."
"Master the automatic. Get a few speeding tickets."
"Buy a new car. This time, WITH PADDLE SHIFTERS!"
"Pretend that's the same thing as a standard."
"Eventually you might be confident enough to try to learn how to drive stick."
"And thats how you drive stick."

Except in this case, the brewing process can't kill you and doesn't require a license.

Go all grain.

I think the advice is solid advice. Learn the basics and make sure it's something you enjoy before you go all in. I made a quick transition from extract to all grain, but I'm glad that I started with extract before moving to AG. I was a little more confident, and of course I think AG is much better so far and I wouldn't go back. But, to go along with your car analogy it's much better to practice driving on the back roads a bit before you jump on the interstate.

 

[ericbw]

I think the advice is solid advice. Learn the basics and make sure it's something you enjoy before you go all in. I made a quick transition from extract to all grain, but I'm glad that I started with extract before moving to AG. I was a little more confident, and of course I think AG is much better so far and I wouldn't go back. But, to go along with your car analogy it's much better to practice driving on the back roads a bit before you jump on the interstate.

I think specharka was trying to show the extremes, but it made too much sense!

Imagine if your first brew was equal to your first drive in a standard car. Bouncing every time you take off, grinding the gears, screeching the tires, stalling out...

That would be like missing your strike temp, missing your volume, draining your wort on the ground, stuck sparge, breaking your thermometer...

 

[kh54s10]

I think the advice is solid advice. Learn the basics and make sure it's something you enjoy before you go all in. I made a quick transition from extract to all grain, but I'm glad that I started with extract before moving to AG. I was a little more confident, and of course I think AG is much better so far and I wouldn't go back. But, to go along with your car analogy it's much better to practice driving on the back roads a bit before you jump on the interstate.

I too started with extracts, then partial mash, then all grain...

BUT, that was for $$ reasons. I didn't want to do BIAB so it took a while to assemble the equipment.

I see absolutely no reason a person should not START OUT brewing all grain. It requires a bit more attention and takes longer but it is not really any more difficult than brewing extracts.

If someone researches all grain brewing, understands what it entails and is comfortable with trying it why not.

The comparison with driving, IMO is BS. You are not controlling a 4000 lb chunk of metal at 40 mph careening down the road with other 4000 lb chunks of metal passing in the other direction at 40 MPH only a few feet away.....

You are not likely to kill yourself or someone else making a mistake brewing all grain. In fact you are not even likely to make a batch that is undrinkable......

 

[BrewingTravisty]

I too started with extracts, then partial mash, then all grain...

BUT, that was for $$ reasons. I didn't want to do BIAB so it took a while to assemble the equipment.

I see absolutely no reason a person should not START OUT brewing all grain. It requires a bit more attention and takes longer but it is not really any more difficult than brewing extracts.

If someone researches all grain brewing, understands what it entails and is comfortable with trying it why not.

The comparison with driving, IMO is BS. You are not controlling a 4000 lb chunk of metal at 40 mph careening down the road with other 4000 lb chunks of metal passing in the other direction at 40 MPH only a few feet away.....

You are not likely to kill yourself or someone else making a mistake brewing all grain. In fact you are not even likely to make a batch that is undrinkable......

I agree lol they are completely different situations. I just wanted to make a car analogy too, it's what the cool kids were doing.

And there's no reason you shouldn't start with AG if you're comfortable with it. The only reason I would recommend extract is so that you have less to worry about your first couple brews and you can focus more on your sanitation. When you're doing AG, you have more things to remember making it easier to miss a step. At least that's how it is for me, I did extract first so that I could get a routine down with things like sanitation, so they would be a habit and I could put more focus into the mash, sparge etc.

Everyone is different though, so just because that worked best for me. Doesn't mean it will for everyone. If you wanna jump head first into AG go for it!

 

[ericbw]

I too started with extracts, then partial mash, then all grain...

BUT, that was for $$ reasons. I didn't want to do BIAB so it took a while to assemble the equipment.

I see absolutely no reason a person should not START OUT brewing all grain. It requires a bit more attention and takes longer but it is not really any more difficult than brewing extracts.

If someone researches all grain brewing, understands what it entails and is comfortable with trying it why not.

The comparison with driving, IMO is BS. You are not controlling a 4000 lb chunk of metal at 40 mph careening down the road with other 4000 lb chunks of metal passing in the other direction at 40 MPH only a few feet away.....

You are not likely to kill yourself or someone else making a mistake brewing all grain. In fact you are not even likely to make a batch that is undrinkable......

The why not is that if you eliminate as many variables as possible, then you can have early success. Eventually, you introduce as many new variables as you can stand. Water chemistry, better fermentation temp control, vary mash temp, vary ingredients, experiment with hop varieties, experiment with hop schedules, etc.

But if you get frustrated and give up early, then you might never make beer.

 

[thekraken]

GUYS! Guys, guys... I don't think OP is listening any more.

 

[ericbw]

GUYS! Guys, guys... I don't think OP is listening any more.

When has THAT ever mattered???

 

[kh54s10]

The why not is that if you eliminate as many variables as possible, then you can have early success. Eventually, you introduce as many new variables as you can stand. Water chemistry, better fermentation temp control, vary mash temp, vary ingredients, experiment with hop varieties, experiment with hop schedules, etc.

But if you get frustrated and give up early, then you might never make beer.

Do you really think all grain is so difficult that you are likely to get frustrated and give up. Maybe some will. But not most.... You can start out with simple all grain brewing and then expand on that!!

I brewed for 4 years before I made a sub-par brew. It is extremely sweet but makes great bread. I did start with extract + steeping grains but that was mostly for financial reasons.

GUYS! Guys, guys... I don't think OP is listening any more.

Probably not, but he may come back for a look. I just don't agree with those that think you must start with extract and learn first. All grain is just not that difficult.

And I don't want the OP to say OMG all grain is impossible, I must start with Mr Beer, advance to extract larger batch then, extract + steeping grains, then Partial mash, then all grain or I will make poison!!!

 

[thekraken]

All grain is just not that difficult.

Agreed.

 

[BigMack]

I think at this point of the OP does come back he will be even more overwhelmed by 6 pages of people arguing about who has the best analogy....

 

[ericbw]

I think at this point of the OP does come back he will be even more overwhelmed by 6 pages of people arguing about who has the best analogy....

The OP no longer matters. The thread has taken on a life of its own.

 

[ericbw]

Do you really think all grain is so difficult that you are likely to get frustrated and give up. Maybe some will. But not most.... You can start out with simple all grain brewing and then expand on that!!

Yes, I really think that. People look at everything involved and get overwhelmed. New processes and terms. They aren't on this forum because they gave up.

Yeah, I think people get frustrated and give up.

ESPECIALLY since the OP mentioned that as a concern.

Also, if you made perfect beer for 4 years before you made a mistake, I think you're the exception. Hopefully we all show improvement.

 

[normonster]

agreed.

x2.

 

[kh54s10]

The OP no longer matters. The thread has taken on a life of its own.

Yes, I really think that. People look at everything involved and get overwhelmed. New processes and terms. They aren't on this forum because they gave up.

Yeah, I think people get frustrated and give up.

ESPECIALLY since the OP mentioned that as a concern.

Also, if you made perfect beer for 4 years before you made a mistake, I think you're the exception. Hopefully we all show improvement.

I never said I made perfect beer. I said it was 4 years before I made a BAD one..... And it was an extreme experiment...

And I don't say all people should jump into all grain brewing. I suggest that if people read up and feel comfortable starting with all grain there is no reason not to.

It might be the right call for the OP, but not everyone.

To suggest that everyone should start with extract kits is dumbing down the hobby......

 

[BrewingTravisty]

I never said I made perfect beer. I said it was 4 years before I made a BAD one..... And it was an extreme experiment...

And I don't say all people should jump into all grain brewing. I suggest that if people read up and feel comfortable starting with all grain there is no reason not to.

It might be the right call for the OP, but not everyone.

To suggest that everyone should start with extract kits is dumbing down the hobby......

I do agree, AG really isn't that hard. Only reason I would suggest extract is for someone that sounds like they are the kind of person to stress themselves out about every little detail because they aren't confident in their abilities, which can lead to make a not so great beer or worse case getting an infection which could totally throw someone off from brewing completely. Making one decent beer from extract can help give you the confidence to see that brewing isn't that hard, and can go to AG with a little more confidence.

Of course, if you already have done your research and feel fairly confident then by all means go straight to AG! I've never been happier with my beers since I went to AG.

 

[ddrumdiablo]

He was afraid he might lose interest. Maybe he already did?

Sorry lads. Was out drinking all last weekend and started a new job this week. Am beat. Only popped in to have a look at the thread, but will certainly chime in over the next few days. Fear not, I haven't lost interes .

 

[bobby4]

I started brewing in the late 80s, and living in an apartment and being intimidated by the complexity stuck with extract. Finally, after way over-thinking it, I tried all-grain not that long ago. It is way simpler than I thought it would be. To make an award-winning stylistically perfect beer, hard. To make a really good beer you will like, dead simple. It sounds and reads much harder than it actually is. My only suggestion - make a checklist, it is easier to forget something during a longer brew day.

 

[BrewingTravisty]

I started brewing in the late 80s, and living in an apartment and being intimidated by the complexity stuck with extract. Finally, after way over-thinking it, I tried all-grain not that long ago. It is way simpler than I thought it would be. To make an award-winning stylistically perfect beer, hard. To make a really good beer you will like, dead simple. It sounds and reads much harder than it actually is. My only suggestion - make a checklist, it is easier to forget something during a longer brew day.

I completely agree, AG is not as difficult as people make it out to be. I'm drinking a wonderful Irish Red right now, that is a really good and really simple AG recipe (even made it from Grain to glass in 2 weeks). The checklist pretty much defeats any arguments I could come up with about not starting with AG.

 

[brewcat]

You can make great beer both ways. Extract just allows you to leave out the mashing variables and focus on the others. Neither way is too complicated.

Why didn't the OP enjoy doing extract kits? Was it final flavor or the process? Are other variables basically controlled, mainly fermentation temp and sanitation?

 

[ddrumdiablo]

Alright so, in looking through the thread and also with a bit of extra research AG is definitely the way I want to go. To address the "learning to drive" analogy, I live in Ireland where 97% of our cars are stick shift, so learning the hardest technique first is second nature to me.

I suppose my biggest concern at the moment is replicating recipes. Being from Ireland, we dont have a massive home brew culture, yes we drink.... a lot, but we dont make our own. There are only 2 homebrew clubs in the country, the largest of which has just 400 members.

Is there any rule of thumb to determine which grains are good substitutes for those which I cant find locally? AFAIK the most popular hops are easily sourced, its just the grain availability is my biggest concern right now.

 

[BigMack]

Alright so, in looking through the thread and also with a bit of extra research AG is definitely the way I want to go. To address the "learning to drive" analogy, I live in Ireland where 97% of our cars are stick shift, so learning the hardest technique first is second nature to me.

I suppose my biggest concern at the moment is replicating recipes. Being from Ireland, we dont have a massive home brew culture, yes we drink.... a lot, but we dont make our own. There are only 2 homebrew clubs in the country, the largest of which has just 400 members.

Is there any rule of thumb to determine which grains are good substitutes for those which I cant find locally? AFAIK the most popular hops are easily sourced, its just the grain availability is my biggest concern right now.

Is there a specific malt that you're curious about?

 

[user 163849]

I did enough reading before I got started to set my sights on swapping to BIAB after a couple of extract batches. All my equipment was purchased with that change in mind. The only thing lacking for me to start BIAB is the bag itself (and maybe a mill). I have an elevated SQ14 burner, a 16 gallon kettle, a march pump (currently used for whirlpool cooling), and a full sized refrigerator controlled by a STC-1000.

As it turns out I have brewed about fifteen 5 gallon batches in the year or so that I have been at it, all of them extract. Not because I fear AG, but mostly because I really like the 3 hour brew day. I am a 66 years old and don't have the stamina that I did in the past but I am drinking excellent beer that I brewed myself from some damn fine extract kits. I do full boils, whirlpool/immersion cooling, yeast starters, oxygen stone, and temp controlled fermentation. I bottle my beer and have no plans to start kegging it. My beer is good enough and cheap enough that I have no desire to add hours to my brew day for the sake of all grain.

Besides this allows more time for my other hobbies which preceded brewing as well as making many of the brewing related diy's a snap.

As for comparing brewing to driving; I started driving a John Deere 40 which of course had a manual transmission, at a very early age. In fact I could not reach the clutch and brake pedal from the seat so had to drive standing up until I grew taller. Next came the one ton '56 Ford truck which had a 5 speed bus transmission and several other standards. The first automatic I ever drove was the drivers ed car at the high school, but I had been driving standards for several years by then.

Some day I may brew an all grain batch just to say that I did it. But there is no way I would expect to get a better beer than the stout that I am drinking right now that I brewed from extract several months ago.

 

[BrewingTravisty]

I did enough reading before I got started to set my sights on swapping to BIAB after a couple of extract batches. All my equipment was purchased with that change in mind. The only thing lacking for me to start BIAB is the bag itself (and maybe a mill). I have an elevated SQ14 burner, a 16 gallon kettle, a march pump (currently used for whirlpool cooling), and a full sized refrigerator controlled by a STC-1000.

As it turns out I have brewed about fifteen 5 gallon batches in the year or so that I have been at it, all of them extract. Not because I fear AG, but mostly because I really like the 3 hour brew day. I am a 66 years old and don't have the stamina that I did in the past but I am drinking excellent beer that I brewed myself from some damn fine extract kits. I do full boils, whirlpool/immersion cooling, yeast starters, oxygen stone, and temp controlled fermentation. I bottle my beer and have no plans to start kegging it. My beer is good enough and cheap enough that I have no desire to add hours to my brew day for the sake of all grain.

Besides this allows more time for my other hobbies which preceded brewing as well as making many of the brewing related diy's a snap.

As for comparing brewing to driving; I started driving a John Deere 40 which of course had a manual transmission, at a very early age. In fact I could not reach the clutch and brake pedal from the seat so had to drive standing up until I grew taller. Next came the one ton '56 Ford truck which had a 5 speed bus transmission and several other standards. The first automatic I ever drove was the drivers ed car at the high school, but I had been driving standards for several years by then.

Some day I may brew an all grain batch just to say that I did it. But there is no way I would expect to get a better beer than the stout that I am drinking right now that I brewed from extract several months ago.

I have no doubt that you can get good beers with stout. I think for me, its just better for me because I can control a little more how the beer will turn out. I can also sense a slight twang in beers made with extract but I'm not sure if that's from the extract or the person brewing.

As far as the car analogies go lol I made my analogy just cause I thought it was funny. I have a strange sense of humor sometimes xP so I've gotten used to being the only one to find myself funny and I'm on with that.

 

[BrewingTravisty]

Alright so, in looking through the thread and also with a bit of extra research AG is definitely the way I want to go. To address the "learning to drive" analogy, I live in Ireland where 97% of our cars are stick shift, so learning the hardest technique first is second nature to me.

I suppose my biggest concern at the moment is replicating recipes. Being from Ireland, we dont have a massive home brew culture, yes we drink.... a lot, but we dont make our own. There are only 2 homebrew clubs in the country, the largest of which has just 400 members.

Is there any rule of thumb to determine which grains are good substitutes for those which I cant find locally? AFAIK the most popular hops are easily sourced, its just the grain availability is my biggest concern right now.

Don't worry about replicating recipes 100%. Look up the flavor profiles of your malts and if you can't get certain malts for a recipe you want just swap with something that sounds good to you that's available.

I actually have yet to brew someone else's recipe. I'll look at a bunch of recipes if I'm brewing a new recipe and then I'll base my recipe off of what I've seen them use, taking into account the flavors I enjoy in beer and kind of creating a beer for myself and the if it's not quite what I was aiming for I'll tweak one thing at a time until I get what I want.

 

[chickypad]

Is there any rule of thumb to determine which grains are good substitutes for those which I cant find locally? AFAIK the most popular hops are easily sourced, its just the grain availability is my biggest concern right now.

Do you have a list of what's available to you? Obviously it will depend on recipe but it would be helpful to know what you've got.

 

[SanPancho]

Is there any rule of thumb to determine which grains are good substitutes for those which I cant find locally? AFAIK the most popular hops are easily sourced, its just the grain availability is my biggest concern right now.

U can look up a few charts online that show all sorts of grains. Typically the most informative info is the lovibond number which tells you how dark it is, which is a function of how roasted it is. Also, some malts will have a few names. For instance, carafoam ans carapils are basically the same but have different names as they're made by different Maltsters. There is a good charts here on this forum that do give you malt substitutions, probly perfect for you.

Also, you may want to try starting up with some SmaSh beers first. (Single-malt-and-single-hop) it really clarifies for you exactly what each malt contributes to the beer, and there's so many new hops these days it's nice to get a good handle on each individual hop.

And I strongly advise you to go brew in a bag, especially full volume mash. faster brew day (no sparge time), less cleaning, less gear to buy and maintain, and there's no difference in the glass.

Good luck.

 

[user 163849]

I have no doubt that you can get good beers with stout. I think for me, its just better for me because I can control a little more how the beer will turn out. I can also sense a slight twang in beers made with extract but I'm not sure if that's from the extract or the person brewing.

As far as the car analogies go lol I made my analogy just cause I thought it was funny. I have a strange sense of humor sometimes xP so I've gotten used to being the only one to find myself funny and I'm on with that.

LOL. Actually by the car analogy I started driving "AG" straight away but I "downgraded" to the point that now my truck is an automatic, and even my tractor has a hydrostatic drive which requires no shifting, but my wife's car is a turbocharged 6 speed manual, and I do enjoy driving her car.......LOL

I think I have more than enough oppertunity to spoil the outcome of my extract batches, no need to double down with all grain. LOL

Actually I am no real judge of how good my beer actually tastes to others as the radiation oncologists at Lackland Air Force Base destroyed much of my ability to identify tastes. It seems that in addition to killing off the throat cancer those 33 radiation treatments took a toll on my salivary glands and taste buds, not a bad trade off I reckon. Chocolate cake now tastes like a block of salt to me but my beer tastes good and others seem to enjoy it also, even though I am quite sure that it tastes different to me than it does to them.

I do brew mostly English style ales but that is because that is the style that I prefer. The English bitter that I am drinking now is just as good as the stout that I was drinking earlier. My best batch ever was probably the Irish Red but I have none of that one left, though there are 50+ bottles of Red going on their second week in the conditioning closet right now.

At any rate, I have no argument that anyone else should follow my lead. I was just voicing my own experience in response to all the posts which seemed to downgrade the value of extract brewing. I agree that all grain gives you more control over your beer but in my case those who brewed the extract have much more business controlling that aspect of the game than I do (ever hear of chemo brain?).LOL

 

[BrewingTravisty]

LOL. Actually by the car analogy I started driving "AG" straight away but I "downgraded" to the point that now my truck is an automatic, and even my tractor has a hydrostatic drive which requires no shifting, but my wife's car is a turbocharged 6 speed manual, and I do enjoy driving her car.......LOL

I think I have more than enough oppertunity to spoil the outcome of my extract batches, no need to double down with all grain. LOL

Actually I am no real judge of how good my beer actually tastes to others as the radiation oncologists at Lackland Air Force Base destroyed much of my ability to identify tastes. It seems that in addition to killing off the throat cancer those 33 radiation treatments took a toll on my salivary glands and taste buds, not a bad trade off I reckon. Chocolate cake now tastes like a block of salt to me but my beer tastes good and others seem to enjoy it also, even though I am quite sure that it tastes different to me than it does to them.

I do brew mostly English style ales but that is because that is the style that I prefer. The English bitter that I am drinking now is just as good as the stout that I was drinking earlier. My best batch ever was probably the Irish Red but I have none of that one left, though there are 50+ bottles of Red going on their second week in the conditioning closet right now.

At any rate, I have no argument that anyone else should follow my lead. I was just voicing my own experience in response to all the posts which seemed to downgrade the value of extract brewing. I agree that all grain gives you more control over your beer but in my case those who brewed the extract have much more business controlling that aspect of the game than I do (ever hear of chemo brain?).LOL

Lol in the end getting beer that you enjoy is whats important, whichever method you use. You can certainly make great beer with extract.

I do gotta say, your wife's car sounds awesome xP nothing wrong with automatic, but can't beat a joyride in a turbocharged 6 speed lol

 

[ddrumdiablo]

Is there a specific malt that you're curious about?

No, none specifically. I'll just concentrate on pilsner and APA for the initial brews.

 

[ddrumdiablo]

Is there a specific malt that you're curious about?

No, none specifically. I'll just concentrate on pilsner and APA for the initial brews.