So I am planning on taking another hydro reading tomorrow night and if if the numbers haven't moved I am going to add the second round of DH. I was thinking of cold crashing right after doing this but am wondering if there is any reason should wait?
Toppling Goliath pseudoSue - Can you clone it?
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How many days total are you at? I like to do second dry hop around day 12 and then keg on day 14 or so. I think you want to get out to day 14 or so before bottling/kegging etc.
I would be at 11 days tonight and I was planning on cold crashing for 3 days before bottling. I just didn't know if cold crashing right after adding the DH was a good idea or if I should let the hops on the room temp bucket a day or two first.
I would maybe give it a day at room temp, then cold crash (which will still take some time to get cold anyway).
Cool. Took a hydro reading and added the second round of Citra. Hydrometer reading stayed the same.Will let sit for a day before cold crashing. The hydrometer sample tasted a little better today although I did get a hint of what I hope is the honey malt and not diacetyl. I suspect it is mainly me being paranoid. The beer is still young and the flavors all stand out apart from each other.
I'm curious, why are you guys cold crashing this? Isn't PseudoSue one of those newer style "cloudy" IPAs that are becoming popular? See all the Treehouse and Hill Farmstead threads. The latest thought seems to be that cold crashing drops out some of that yummy dry hop oils, flavor, and aroma that you spent so much time and money getting in there.
I just did it on various IPA's as an experiment...... and, I felt like when I did it, the hops came through better when the yeast was dropped out. Keep in mind, I am dry hopping twice. Once in primary (2-3 ounces) and a 3-4 ounce 2nd dry hop after the cold crash, in a dry hopping keg. My personal opinion is the yeast in suspension does not really benefit the flavor. My experience is that dropping that yeast and then applying a second dry hop provides a much better hop flavor and aroma. My beers are still coming out "hazy".... but now all that haze IS from the hops/oils and not from the yeast in suspension.
I already added my second round of DH. Do you think I should pass on the cold crash? My hydrometer readings have been pretty cloudy. I assume a lot of it is hops as I have read that WLP007 is a highly flocculating (?) yeast but I think some of it might also be starches from steeping the honey malt.
D-Train
Well-Known Member
I cold crash my IPA's for 24-48 hours just to get the hops to drop and make racking easier.
Damian, I don't recall if you have said, do you keg or bottle? Braufessor is kegging, so he doesn't need the yeast for natural carbonation. I bottle exclusively, which is another reason why I don't cold crash anything. But I do tend to refrigerate most of my bottles for a minimum of 2-3 days, and sometimes a lot longer once they have carbed up. I get lots of sediment in the bottom of my bottles which I don't pour into the glass. (except for wheat beers)
Thanks! Good to know.
I bottled last night. I had been a little worried because my hydro readings were tasting a little too sweet, but last nights sample after cold crashing and right before bottling tasted excellent. Makes me optimistic. There were a few things that didn't go as planned that make me a little worried.
1. My racking cane broke so I had to syphon using my mouth. I filled the hose with star san first, syphoned star san into my sanitizing bucket where the part that came in contact with my mouth was able to soak for about ten seconds and then switched to bottling bucket once the beer came. Read of other people using this method with no problems but who knows.
2. My buddy patted the bottle caps dry of star san with a paper towel which I think defeats the purpose of sanitation and might even add negatively to the bottle caps. I didn't find out until after we were done bottling. I don't know how big of a deal this is.
3. Cooled the priming solution in the fridge for ten minutes after boiling but forgot to put the top on leaving it exposed to the fridge air. Hopefully no bad bacteria went in. Again, don't know how big of a deal this is.
All in all I am really optimistic about how the flat sample tasted but am a little worried that I might have introduced something negative during bottling. It was my first time doing this in a while and it was a little hectic.
1. My racking cane broke so I had to syphon using my mouth. I filled the hose with star san first, syphoned star san into my sanitizing bucket where the part that came in contact with my mouth was able to soak for about ten seconds and then switched to bottling bucket once the beer came. Read of other people using this method with no problems but who knows.
2. My buddy patted the bottle caps dry of star san with a paper towel which I think defeats the purpose of sanitation and might even add negatively to the bottle caps. I didn't find out until after we were done bottling. I don't know how big of a deal this is.
3. Cooled the priming solution in the fridge for ten minutes after boiling but forgot to put the top on leaving it exposed to the fridge air. Hopefully no bad bacteria went in. Again, don't know how big of a deal this is.
All in all I am really optimistic about how the flat sample tasted but am a little worried that I might have introduced something negative during bottling. It was my first time doing this in a while and it was a little hectic.
None of those 3 things are probably ideal. But, they may not be catastrophic either.
1.) This is the one I would be most worried about to be honest. But, it is not like you stuck it directly from your mouth into your beer, so there is a good chance you will be ok. I always used plastic bottling buckets with spigots for fermenting.... no siphoning. There are definitely some things to pay attention to if using a bucket with a spigot, but once you have a system down - they work great, and you can just transfer by gravity instead of screwing around with siphons.
2.) I don't dry my caps when I bottle. Straight out of the star san and straight onto the bottle.
3.) Again, not ideal..... but, it is not like most refrigerators are filthy places. No wind to blow anything in, low temp keeps any bacterial growth slowed down. Should be ok. To be honest, there is really no reason to even cool your priming solution...... you are talking about a cup or less of hot liquid that you are dumping 5 gallons of room temperature wort on...... When I bottled, I just put my hot priming solution in the bottling bucket and then transferred the wort onto it. That temp is knocked down to nothing within seconds simply due to heat lost to the bucket and to the volume of wort.
Sounds like it is tasting good and you should have some good beer in a couple weeks.
1.) This is the one I would be most worried about to be honest. But, it is not like you stuck it directly from your mouth into your beer, so there is a good chance you will be ok. I always used plastic bottling buckets with spigots for fermenting.... no siphoning. There are definitely some things to pay attention to if using a bucket with a spigot, but once you have a system down - they work great, and you can just transfer by gravity instead of screwing around with siphons.
2.) I don't dry my caps when I bottle. Straight out of the star san and straight onto the bottle.
3.) Again, not ideal..... but, it is not like most refrigerators are filthy places. No wind to blow anything in, low temp keeps any bacterial growth slowed down. Should be ok. To be honest, there is really no reason to even cool your priming solution...... you are talking about a cup or less of hot liquid that you are dumping 5 gallons of room temperature wort on...... When I bottled, I just put my hot priming solution in the bottling bucket and then transferred the wort onto it. That temp is knocked down to nothing within seconds simply due to heat lost to the bucket and to the volume of wort.
Sounds like it is tasting good and you should have some good beer in a couple weeks.
doublehaul
Well-Known Member
What kind of utilization do you think you are getting out of the whirlpool hops? If I even plug in 5% I'm getting like 40 IBUS for this addition and then 108 IBUS for all. Do you consider this an IPA or an APA? I've been doing my own recipe based on this thread that's pretty similar to yours and I've wanted to put flaked barley in it - I might give this a shot! But I want to brew an IPA rather than a pale; my brew based on this thread has been a pale like Psuedo Sue - nothing but FWH for bittering - so in theory like nothing before a 20 minute addition and I'd like to have more IPA bite.
WiscoBrewer
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I have no idea what my whirlpool hop utilization is. There are so many variables; whirlpool temp, contact time, how much whirpool action you impart, how fast you you cool afterwards, etc. Beersmith calculates their whirlpool IBU's with the temp at 194f, I whirlpool at 180f. I also use a pump to whirlpool and stir what collects in the center of the kettle up a few times as well. It takes me about 15min to get down to 64f from 180f with the Jamil immersion chiller / whirpool contraption.
According to BeerSmith I have 123IBU's, but I think its about half that. I would consider it right on the line between an APAand IPA leaning more to the IPA. It's definitely not what I would consider a west coast IPA, but rather an east coast IPA. I entered a similar recipe (same grain bill and hop schedule but Citra, Galaxy, and Mosaic hops and bittered with Warrior) in a competition as an IPA that won peoples choice, by a landslide, 3rd in category, and it scored 38-43 with the judges. At least one judge thought it could benefit from more bitterness. So I bumped up the Warrior addition from .25oz to .75oz and it just got the DH last night. This should give it more IPA bite, maybe too much we'll see.
According to BeerSmith I have 123IBU's, but I think its about half that. I would consider it right on the line between an APAand IPA leaning more to the IPA. It's definitely not what I would consider a west coast IPA, but rather an east coast IPA. I entered a similar recipe (same grain bill and hop schedule but Citra, Galaxy, and Mosaic hops and bittered with Warrior) in a competition as an IPA that won peoples choice, by a landslide, 3rd in category, and it scored 38-43 with the judges. At least one judge thought it could benefit from more bitterness. So I bumped up the Warrior addition from .25oz to .75oz and it just got the DH last night. This should give it more IPA bite, maybe too much we'll see.
doublehaul
Well-Known Member
What do u think about making this a Rye IPA? Would it work with the over the top hops?
WiscoBrewer
Well-Known Member
I actually have a batch of RyePA in the kegerator using a similar hop schedule to this, but using Chinook and Galaxy, it turned out pretty good.
I finally tried a bottle of my clone after two weeks in the bottle and it was too sweet (carbonation level was fine though). I will pop another one in the fridge tomorrow (at 3 weeks in the bottle) and see how its tasting since Ive read a week or two of extra conditioning can make a big difference. The flavors are there, and it smells really good It's just a bit on the sweet side. Maybe I will leave it in the fridge longer before I open it.
Tried another bottle at 3 weeks conditioning and it tastes significantly better. A lot of the excess sweetness has gone and the hops are shining more. I'm good with the way it tastes now but I suspect a little more time conditioning will make it even better.
I brewed the following version up on 02-21-16. I basically used parts of WiscoBrewer and Braufessor's recipes. It turned out really well. I can absolutely confirm that it is significantly better than current pseudo sue. The following is for a 9.5 gallon batch with 70% efficiency and a target of 6.2 abv. I don't know why I did 6.2, it is too high.
Malt
2 row - 20.5 lb
flaked barley - 0.75 lb
Honey malt - 0.75 lb
Hops
Citra 19 oz - 2.25 oz at 10', 1.5 oz at 5', 2.25 oz at flameout, 5 oz hopstand 30' at just under 180.
HopShot - 1.2ml 60'
2x Dry hop - first at 6 days in primary, 2nd in keg for 4 days before transfering to carb. Total time before carbonation - 14 days
Yeast - wlp007 (2 stage step-up)
Single step infusion mash - 90' at 153
mash thickness 1.3qt/lb
1x Batch sparge
my water profile:
calcium= 86
mg= 12
sodium=2
cl-= 69
SO4= 66
HCO3= 138
I am brewing a modified version this weekend. Lowering the grain bill to get the abv down to 5.8. I am also upping the flaked barley just a hair and adding a tiny amount of crystal 60l to get the color a bit more orange. I am also going to do a 2:1 citra:amarillo mix for the hops. Thanks everyone for all of the work on this. It has been 2 or 3 years since Adman and I were giving initial attempts at this. You guys took it to the next level!
Malt
2 row - 20.5 lb
flaked barley - 0.75 lb
Honey malt - 0.75 lb
Hops
Citra 19 oz - 2.25 oz at 10', 1.5 oz at 5', 2.25 oz at flameout, 5 oz hopstand 30' at just under 180.
HopShot - 1.2ml 60'
2x Dry hop - first at 6 days in primary, 2nd in keg for 4 days before transfering to carb. Total time before carbonation - 14 days
Yeast - wlp007 (2 stage step-up)
Single step infusion mash - 90' at 153
mash thickness 1.3qt/lb
1x Batch sparge
my water profile:
calcium= 86
mg= 12
sodium=2
cl-= 69
SO4= 66
HCO3= 138
I am brewing a modified version this weekend. Lowering the grain bill to get the abv down to 5.8. I am also upping the flaked barley just a hair and adding a tiny amount of crystal 60l to get the color a bit more orange. I am also going to do a 2:1 citra:amarillo mix for the hops. Thanks everyone for all of the work on this. It has been 2 or 3 years since Adman and I were giving initial attempts at this. You guys took it to the next level!
beardandbutter
Member
Brewed this up with honey malt and flaked barley 5/23 with a small twist - did 3 gal of citra and 3 gal of amarillo! In the dry hop keg now, will transfer to serving kegs tonight and carbonate. Also just picked up a couple bombers of the DDH PsuedoSue - can't wait to do a side by side
Sounds good. You won't be disappointed in DDH Sue.... I picked up 2 cases of bombers (some for me, some for friends). It is fantastic.
beardandbutter
Member
I had a taste at Alluvial last weekend, really delicious stuff. Also have a growler of golden nugget that I'm going to compare with a fairly fresh Florida can tonight.
heavymetalmage
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I'm working on making my own version of WiscoBrewer's recipe in a week or two, simply splitting the 2-row into half 2-row and half Golden Promise. Everything else the same.
That said, I'm having difficulty coming up with a satisfactory water profile. Both WiscoBrewer and Braufessor have very high Chloride and relatively low Sulfates in their water profiles. This is counterintuitive to me for an IPA. Thoughts on this?
That said, I'm having difficulty coming up with a satisfactory water profile. Both WiscoBrewer and Braufessor have very high Chloride and relatively low Sulfates in their water profiles. This is counterintuitive to me for an IPA. Thoughts on this?
beardandbutter
Member
Beers turned out extremely enjoyable, oddly the citra version turned out slightly hazier than the amarillo (pictured is the citra, homebrewtalk is having issues loading the amarillo). The citra is the winner here although I'm still going to pick up the real deal whenever I see a bomber (wish I was free last weekend to grab some King Sue...). Looking forward to the next attempt!
heavymetalmage
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Brewed this a few weeks ago:
Sudo PseudoSue
Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Boil Size: 8.06 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
Efficiency: 68.00 %
Ingredients
6 lbs 12.0 oz Brewers Malt 2-Row (Briess) (1.8 SRM)
6 lbs 12.0 oz Pale Malt, Golden Promise (Thomas Fawcett) (3.0 SRM)
8.0 oz Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM)
8.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM)
0.25 oz Magnum [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min
2.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min
5.00 oz Citra [10.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min
1.0 pkg British Ale Yeast (Wyeast Labs #1098) [124.21 ml] Yeast 10
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 11 0.0 IBUs
2.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 12 0.0 IBUs
Gravity, Alcohol Content and Color
Est Original Gravity: 1.061 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.1 %
Est Color: 5.7 SRM
Mash Profile
Mash In Add 20.12 qt of water at 166.9 F 152.0 F 90 min
Sparge: Fly sparge with 5.27 gal water at 168.0 F
~Water profile: Ca 90 Mg 10 Na 28 Cl 127 SO 67 HCO 84
I think it turned about very nice; BIG passionfruit and grapefruit flavors. It's a bit too dry for my taste. I think next time I'll go all Golden Promise and this will be spot on.
Sudo PseudoSue
Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Boil Size: 8.06 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
Efficiency: 68.00 %
Ingredients
6 lbs 12.0 oz Brewers Malt 2-Row (Briess) (1.8 SRM)
6 lbs 12.0 oz Pale Malt, Golden Promise (Thomas Fawcett) (3.0 SRM)
8.0 oz Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM)
8.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM)
0.25 oz Magnum [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min
2.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min
5.00 oz Citra [10.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min
1.0 pkg British Ale Yeast (Wyeast Labs #1098) [124.21 ml] Yeast 10
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 11 0.0 IBUs
2.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 12 0.0 IBUs
Gravity, Alcohol Content and Color
Est Original Gravity: 1.061 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.1 %
Est Color: 5.7 SRM
Mash Profile
Mash In Add 20.12 qt of water at 166.9 F 152.0 F 90 min
Sparge: Fly sparge with 5.27 gal water at 168.0 F
~Water profile: Ca 90 Mg 10 Na 28 Cl 127 SO 67 HCO 84
I think it turned about very nice; BIG passionfruit and grapefruit flavors. It's a bit too dry for my taste. I think next time I'll go all Golden Promise and this will be spot on.
Heavy - sorry for the silly question, but what's the difference between the steeping hop addition and the zero minute addition?
heavymetalmage
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I cooled the wort down to 180 degrees before adding the whirlpool hops. This helps arrest some of the isomerization of the alpha acids, preventing too much bitterness.
TheHopfather
Well-Known Member
The theory is that the high chloride, low sulfate ratio is a defining characteristic of a NEIPA. The idea is the high chloride gives the beer its silky, creamy mouthfeel (along with yeast choice) and helps to tone down the hop bitterness. A NEIPA should be full of hop flavor, the 'juicy' descriptor, rather than a firm bitterness you'd find in a west coast IPA hence the reversed sulfate:chloride ratio.
These beers should be hoppy, not bitter.
bumping this back from the dead, getting tired of the FL cans of sue, and this last batch of ddh sue really has me wanting to try this recipe.
Would you just go with 14 pounds GP and leave the specialty grains as is? How do you think 1318 would be in this brew? May brew this next.
LoneTreeFarms
Well-Known Member
a buddy of mine from decorah said TG is building a 50000 sf building to begin canning their own. should eliminate the FL cans.
It's true they are but won't be done till sometime next year. And if I can make something close it'll be so worth it vs buying theirs
Adaman05
Well-Known Member
This wasn't my recipe you were quoting but I'll weigh in. A long while back, Clark was emailed a recipe and he suggested using American ale yeast. A couple others and myself have done split batches and we all preferred British yeast, so I think 1318 would be a fine choice.
Adaman05
Well-Known Member
I may have unintentionally just cloned Sue (the old, amazing Sue). My mom loves Citra Hero by Revolution Brewing but doesn't like the 7.5% abv part, so I tried making about a 6% version. Just pulled my first pint of it and it is so good. I used the 2016 crop of Citra from Farmhouse. Here's what I did:
1.059 OG
1.014 FG
90.6% Two Row
5.7% Red Wheat
3.8% Aromatic
0.5 oz Citra FWH
1 oz Citra @ 15
1 oz Citra @ 10
1 oz Citra @ 5
3 oz Citra whirlpool 25 minutes
4 oz Citra dry hop 3 days
S-04 yeast fermented at 64F before finishing up for a week at 68F.
Mashed at 153.
Treated my Madison tap water with lactic acid, campden, and gypsum.
1.059 OG
1.014 FG
90.6% Two Row
5.7% Red Wheat
3.8% Aromatic
0.5 oz Citra FWH
1 oz Citra @ 15
1 oz Citra @ 10
1 oz Citra @ 5
3 oz Citra whirlpool 25 minutes
4 oz Citra dry hop 3 days
S-04 yeast fermented at 64F before finishing up for a week at 68F.
Mashed at 153.
Treated my Madison tap water with lactic acid, campden, and gypsum.
My buddy Matt is a brewer at Alluvial, he and Jason have been making really good stuff up there. They just released their first bottles last night, were you able to get in on any of those?
beardandbutter
Member
Yeah! I got a bottle of Aurox, was a ton of fun. I haven't been up there so often since I started working from Des Moines a couple months ago, but they make some great beer - I couldn't miss that release! I took a growler of my most recent NEIPA. Influenced by @braufessor 's big NEIPA thread. The nose is incredible. It was a big hit among my friend's bottle share group.
Beardy's Hazy Hopped IPA
Brewed 11/27/16
Mash Temp 154degF
OG - 1.054
Batch size 4.75 gal
30.4% Golden Promise
30.4% Rahr pale malt
27.8% flaked oats
7.6% crystal 15
3.8% carapils
0.5 oz CTZ @ 60
1.0 oz Citra @ continuously added from 10 min until flameout
0.5 oz Galaxy @ continuously added from 10 min until flameout
2.0 oz Citra whirlpool for 30 min
1.5 oz Galaxy whirlpool for 30 min
0.25 oz Galaxy @ Pre-fermentation
0.25 oz Citra @ Pre-fermentation
2.0 oz Citra @ Dry hop in fermentation keg after 2 days
1.0 oz Galaxy @ Dry hop in fermentation keg after 2 days
2.0 oz Citra @ Dry hop in fermentation keg after 10 days
2.0 oz Galaxy @ Dry hop in fermentation keg after 10 days
wyeast 1318 @ 66degF
First time fermenting in a keg, outfitted with a dry hop filter on the diptube. Transferred to serving keg after 15 days
That recipe looks great. I'm a huge fan of NEIPAs and might have to try that one sometime.
Attempted this based on the latest thoughts/attempts as of mid-August 2016.
PseudoSue is one of my favorite all time beers and had to give a clone a try...
Psue Brue
6.25 gallons
1.5 mash thickness
OG 1.062
FG 1.014
ABV 6.3%
Mash 152º, 60 min.
Boil 75 min.
12.5 lbs:
92% CMC 2- Row (11.5 lbs)
4% Gambrinus Honey Malt (.5 lbs)
4% Flaked barley (.5 lbs)
1lb of Citra pellets:
.5oz citra 15min
2oz citra 10min
2oz citra 5min
2.5oz citra flameout
5oz citra whirlpool at 125º for 30min
Wyeast 1335 - British Ale II (2 liter starter)
Dry hop 2oz in primary at day 7.
Dry hop 2oz in primary at day 10.
Cold crashed for 5 days at day 15.
Bottled on day 22.
Easily the best Pale Ale I've made. Did several side by sides with the real Pseudo Sue. While mine was really good, it was just a little different. There's definitely a flavor in the real stuff that didn't make it into mine, what that is, I don't know.
Mine was also a little darker. I see there's been some new posts with ideas since I did mine, will give it another try soon as I love this beer!
PseudoSue is one of my favorite all time beers and had to give a clone a try...
Psue Brue
6.25 gallons
1.5 mash thickness
OG 1.062
FG 1.014
ABV 6.3%
Mash 152º, 60 min.
Boil 75 min.
12.5 lbs:
92% CMC 2- Row (11.5 lbs)
4% Gambrinus Honey Malt (.5 lbs)
4% Flaked barley (.5 lbs)
1lb of Citra pellets:
.5oz citra 15min
2oz citra 10min
2oz citra 5min
2.5oz citra flameout
5oz citra whirlpool at 125º for 30min
Wyeast 1335 - British Ale II (2 liter starter)
Dry hop 2oz in primary at day 7.
Dry hop 2oz in primary at day 10.
Cold crashed for 5 days at day 15.
Bottled on day 22.
Easily the best Pale Ale I've made. Did several side by sides with the real Pseudo Sue. While mine was really good, it was just a little different. There's definitely a flavor in the real stuff that didn't make it into mine, what that is, I don't know.
Mine was also a little darker. I see there's been some new posts with ideas since I did mine, will give it another try soon as I love this beer!
How does doing what you did above differ from what has been posted and what I attempted below. I'm relatively new to all grain and trying to understand the details of what I could expect the differences to be?
Thanks!
92% CMC 2- Row
4% Gambrinus Honey Malt
4% Flaked barley
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