Toppling Goliath pseudoSue - Can you clone it?

[skibb]

you should definitely do a side by side! They can be very eye opening

 

[dlebert]

I did a recipe with mosaic earlier this year. I think I posted the recipe in this thread. Turned out well, more subtle than the citra version. Wasn't a sousus for sure, I think you would want to up the body a bit more to achieve a better representation.

On a side note, I split my mosaic sue mash in half and added ginger to one batch. It turned out incredible. Brought it to my wife's brewery and got rave reviews from the brewmasters at WBC and the vintage! I think I posted this recipe in the thread as well.

Also, do people think the sue quality has gone down? Doesn't taste as good to me anymore. The body seems thinner and the hops are more oniony. Though I did just bring back a case of heady topper and that could be dwarfing the sue...

 

[geoffey]

I did a recipe with mosaic earlier this year. I think I posted the recipe in this thread. Turned out well, more subtle than the citra version. Wasn't a sousus for sure, I think you would want to up the body a bit more to achieve a better representation.

On a side note, I split my mosaic sue mash in half and added ginger to one batch. It turned out incredible. Brought it to my wife's brewery and got rave reviews from the brewmasters at WBC and the vintage! I think I posted this recipe in the thread as well.

Also, do people think the sue quality has gone down? Doesn't taste as good to me anymore. The body seems thinner and the hops are more oniony. Though I did just bring back a case of heady topper and that could be dwarfing the sue...

You got a case of heady? Maybe we could talk trade for a couple/few of them?



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[globe]

I think it has gone down hill too. The biggest change IMO was when it wasn't hazy anymore, it just didn't seem the same. Maybe the hops are getting old and the new 14' crop will change things for the better? I am drinking a sue now, it is still good but now I wait at least a week to pop them, seems like they may be a tad green if you drink them on delivery day.

Edit: I had a heady one night a month ago then opened a Sue, let me tell you that was a huge mistake, sorry but heady is above and beyond Sue for my taste at least. They are both great but should not be compared haha.

 

[dlebert]

I completely agree on both! I think they are rushing it out too fast as well. I also miss the haze...

Also, the heady is a different style to be fair. Just bigger and more complex on all fronts.

And yes, I'm open to a trade. Send me a PM if you have something I might be interested in! I actually brought back 2 cases, down to 1. I also brought back a bunch of hill farmstead. That stuff is a cut above everyone else.

 

[Adaman05]

I completely agree on both! I think they are rushing it out too fast as well. I also miss the haze...

Also, the heady is a different style to be fair. Just bigger and more complex on all fronts.

And yes, I'm open to a trade. Send me a PM if you have something I might be interested in! I actually brought back 2 cases, down to 1. I also brought back a bunch of hill farmstead. That stuff is a cut above everyone else.

Arghh! I was going to offer a trade of something but realized you're in the same city. That won't work! I've only ever had Hill Farmstead's Everett and I MUST try something HOPPY from them!

 

[WiscoBrewer]

I completely agree that the Psuedo not being the same. I think its the hop supply for sure.

I'm trying something like this on Saturday;

6 Gallons 65-70% efficiency
Mash @ 152 for 90min / 90min Boil / WLP-001 in 1.5L Starter
9lbs US 2 row
6lbs Golden Promise
1lb Crystal 20L
2oz Citra 10min
3oz Citra 5min
2oz Citra Flameout
4oz Citra Whirlpool (Trying out my new Jamil's IC Whirlpool)
2oz Citra Dry Hop 7days
2oz Citra Dry Hop last 4 Days

Been awhile since I brewed PS, but made a Pale Ale with a Pilsner 2row / Marris Otter mix and the malt profile turned out quite a bit like the PS. I used Amarillo, Mosaic, Simcoe, and Citra for 56 IBU's, absolutely delicious combo!

 

[WiscoBrewer]

Here is the final recipe for tmrw;

6 gallons 65% efficiency
Mash @ 152 90Min / 60Min Boil
WLP-001 in 2L starter (LBS had 8-11-14 viles)
Ferment @ 64 ramp up to 68-70 and hold, cool, and dry hop at 64
OG: 1.064
IBU: 65.6

7.5Lbs US / Breiss 2 Row
7.5Lbs Golden Promise
.75Lbs Crystal 10L
.25Lbs Crystal 20L

Hop Union Citra Pellets Lot 1710 / Alpha 14.5%, Beta 2.5%
The last recipe and previous were 12.5% alpha, so additions have been adjusted using BreerSmith.
I noticed a little too much bitterness in the last attempt so I deleted the 15min addition and added to the 10 & 5min additions.
Still 1lb of Citra ass down goodness!!!


2.00oz @ 10Min / 27.6 IBU
2.50oz @ 05Min / 19 IBU
2.00oz @ 00Min / 00 IBU???
5.00oz Whirlpool / 19 IBU??? 170 Degrees for 30min. (entered as 5min whirlpool in BeerSmith)
2.00oz Dry Hop for 7days
2.50oz Dry Hop for last 4days

 

[dlebert]

Arghh! I was going to offer a trade of something but realized you're in the same city. That won't work! I've only ever had Hill Farmstead's Everett and I MUST try something HOPPY from them!

Do you have anything squirreled away? I would be willing to trade if you have something good to trade for!

 

[Adaman05]

Do you have anything squirreled away? I would be willing to trade if you have something good to trade for!

Sadly, I have nothing stashed away anymore. On a side note, I picked up a couple Sues today and just cracked one. It tastes as good as ever to me... No decline noted.

 

[rivercity_homebrew]

So my Mosaic-Golden Promise Smash is kegged and carbed. It is tasting pretty awesome. I only used 8 oz spread instead of 1lb. Hop schedule as follows:
1 oz at 15, 10 and 5 min.
2 oz in whirlpool after the wort hit 180, steeped 30 min
1.5 oz dry hop for 7 days
1.5 oz dry hop for 4 days

Very flavorful and fruity. Not sure if I like Mosaic more than Citra.

 

[WiscoBrewer]

The last attempt from above, except,75lb crystal 10l instead of the 10l/20l combo, has been kegged for two weeks and I would say this is the closest I've come to cloned. I'm going to do a double blindfolded triangle test with my wife, a friend, and myself. All of us are fans, but only I will know the two beers identity or intent of the test. The questions will be based on differences and then preferences, I will post results.


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[30Bones]

Going to try a 2 gallon batch to see how close I can get before fully committing


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[30Bones]

Here is the final recipe for tmrw;



2.00oz Dry Hop for 7days

2.50oz Dry Hop for last 4days

Fyi in beersmith I'm over 115 IBU's copying this (caught it, whirlpool was giving it another 70 points)

So are you dry hopping when you pitch for 7 days, then the other before bottling/keg?

Thanks



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[Adaman05]

Drinking a bottle I picked up today from Trixie's in Madison. Totally getting the onion taste that's been mentioned before. I hadn't noticed it before today. Maybe my palate is more sensitive to it since I just had a glass of amazing cabernet? Not sure, but I still enjoy the beer a lot. It's cloudy as can be and tastes better than the two glasses I had on tap at Dexter's Pub on Monday. Who knows how long that keg was sitting down there, though. Also, the Dexter's beers were almost crystal clear.

Edit: It's been talked about, but not done, but a few of us in this thread reside in Madison, WI. I'd love to get a collaborative brew going. PM me.

 

[Adaman05]

Fyi in beersmith I'm over 115 IBU's copying this (caught it, whirlpool was giving it another 70 points)

So are you dry hopping when you pitch for 7 days, then the other before bottling/keg?

Thanks



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Regarding WiscoBrewer's post, I interpret it this way:

Add dry hop 1 for a total of 7 days. Add dry hop 2 on day 3 of dry hop 1.

That makes a lot of sense to me and I think will make for a great dry hop. Since I've been dry hopping with my SS keg hopper in a keg purged with CO2 to get rid of oxygen, I personally would give it two separate additions of about 3-4 days each. But that is just my system and preference.

 

[WiscoBrewer]

To answer the question on the DH, the first hop addition is in for the full seven days. The second addition is added after the third day, and is in for a total of four days.

As for the triangle tests I did, everybody could tell the difference. They all said mine smelled better, the flavor was good in both, but the real PS had a "fresher/liveliness" to it, which they all preferred. I agree with the results as well.

I'm thinking I may be getting some oxidation going on with the pellet DH in a secondary plus the multiple racking. Next time I will put the first dry hops in the primary the last three days of fermentation and the second addition will be in the primary or keg. If this doesn't get better results I may try a different grain bill, less Golden Promise and maybe eliminating the crystal all together and subbing with Munich or Vienna instead.

Brewing a Boulevard Rye On Rye today. A Scottish Rye Ale aged in Templeton Rye barrels.

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[dlebert]

Adaman05, I am in madison and would be game to do a group brew. I won't lie, I haven't been as blown away by psuedo lately and have stopped buying it. As such, I haven't been brewing the clone either. I'm assuming you would want to do a group attempt at this clone right?

 

[Braufessor]

I won't lie, I haven't been as blown away by psuedo lately and have stopped buying it.

I had a couple pints at the taproom the other day and thought it tasted very different too. Less hoppy. Not sure if the batch was just maybe a bit on the old side and the hops were fading ...... tasted like they used less hops in it. Perhaps they are running low on citra and are waiting for the new crop to arrive??? I don't know.... but I agree, it was not what I am used to. Still a good beer, just less hoppy. Could have just been me too, but, they were my first beers and I had not eaten anything right before to affect my taste.

 

[30Bones]

Had my first in a long while Thursday and wasn't super jazzed either. Nugget is a lot better IMO

 

[Adaman05]

Adaman05, I am in madison and would be game to do a group brew. I won't lie, I haven't been as blown away by psuedo lately and have stopped buying it. As such, I haven't been brewing the clone either. I'm assuming you would want to do a group attempt at this clone right?

We could try another attempt at cloning, or we could do something else. I'm cool with whatever, as long as it's hoppy! McNasty, also in Madison, has been pm'ing me and we are thinking about doing a collaborative brew. Would be fun giving this another shot and doing a 10 or 15 gallon batch with 3 of us.

 

[doublehaul]

Howdy I brewed a recipe loosely based on this thread. Well this was the second batch (first was awesome) and the first batch I put 2 teaspoons gypsum in, last batch I accidentally put 2 tablespoons gypsum in the mash, which according to bru'n water is like 1040 ppm sulfate... what do you think, what can I expect?!

 

[Braufessor]

well....... I guess I would "expect" a somewhat "chalky' beer. However, who knows??? You are definitely into the "you don't know if you don't try range"........ so, I am eagerly awaiting your report back on what you think after fermentation and the beer is ready to drink.

 

[doublehaul]

well....... I guess I would "expect" a somewhat "chalky' beer. However, who knows??? You are definitely into the "you don't know if you don't try range"........ so, I am eagerly awaiting your report back on what you think after fermentation and the beer is ready to drink.

Well I only used like $15 worth of CITRA no big deal... HAHA.., wasn't there some rumor about the actual brewer using some crazy amount of gypsum or am I thinking about heady topper?

 

[Braufessor]

heady topper uses a very hard water profile according to ward lab analysis.

It will be interesting to hear how this turns out. I don't necessarily think it will be bad. And, who knows, maybe it will be spectacular.

 

[doublehaul]

or... it may suck! oh well, I'll report back. we'll see how the gravity taste is before I dry hop

 

[doublehaul]

I may have been misreading bru'n water. I think to hit 2 tablespoons, it would be 2.94 grams/gal, and that recommends 13.2 grams in the mash, 16.8 grams in the sparge, for 30 grams total. I put it all in the mash. That only ends up at 441.5 PPM sulfate, but my mash PH was 5.1. Anyways, I took a sample, it's at 1.022 1 week in. My last batch was 1.018 at 8 days and finished at 1.016. So we'll see, hopefully the mash PH won't make it under attenuate. Tasting - maybe salty? Kinda weird. Hard to tell. I think I'll bottle it up no dry hops when it's finished and rebrew tomorrow

 

[Herky21]

Arghh! I was going to offer a trade of something but realized you're in the same city. That won't work! I've only ever had Hill Farmstead's Everett and I MUST try something HOPPY from them!

Just a small detail, but Heady is brewed by The Alchemist, a different but also great Vermont brewer. Great beer.

As for the Pseudosue cloning, I would think the biscuit flavor in Sue is probably created by munich. I don't know if the original theory that got everyone to Golden Promise is correct or not. Golden Nugget and Sue have similar coloring, but different malt flavors, IMO. I would think that any caramel malt would be fairly dialed back as well, to push out more hop aroma, but the light SRMs seem to be working for you guys so that's hard to tell.

 

[Adaman05]

Just a small detail, but Heady is brewed by The Alchemist, a different but also great Vermont brewer. Great beer.

As for the Pseudosue cloning, I would think the biscuit flavor in Sue is probably created by munich. I don't know if the original theory that got everyone to Golden Promise is correct or not. Golden Nugget and Sue have similar coloring, but different malt flavors, IMO. I would think that any caramel malt would be fairly dialed back as well, to push out more hop aroma, but the light SRMs seem to be working for you guys so that's hard to tell.

I don't know what I was insinuating when I posted that, but I've Heady several times and know that Hill Farmstead is a different brewer. That said, I've heard such special things said about Abner and Edward that I'm dying to try one. Back to the Sue - I've just poured a bottle and it is clearer than I'm used to but still just as tasty and juicy as I remember. It's been a while since I've had some. I could definitely see 5-10% Munich in there, or Victory or Biscuit.

 

[OscarBrau]

I brew extracts. Would Maris Otter be a good substitute for Golden Promise, or is the flavor too different? Would use 1/2 MO and 1/2 pale lme/dme work?

 

[Herky21]

I brew extracts. Would Maris Otter be a good substitute for Golden Promise, or is the flavor too different? Would use 1/2 MO and 1/2 pale lme/dme work?

That should work well. I do a 5.5-6% pale base that uses half MO and I think it is wonderful. You might not need much caramel if you calculate out the FG and its 1.014-16 already.

 

[dlebert]

I totally disagree. Maris Otter will yield a completely different beer. Not saying it will be a bad beer, as many of my pales/IPAs/barley wines use maris otter. Just different. More body, more color, more of a "thick" mouth feel. Just my opinion though. Also, I would certainly lean towards DME over LME. Even if it is just a matter of matching the color, you will be hard pressed to yield a beer as light colored as Psuedo with M.O. and LME. Again, just my opinion.

 

[Herky21]

I totally disagree. Maris Otter will yield a completely different beer. Not saying it will be a bad beer, as many of my pales/IPAs/barley wines use maris otter. Just different. More body, more color, more of a "thick" mouth feel. Just my opinion though. Also, I would certainly lean towards DME over LME. Even if it is just a matter of matching the color, you will be hard pressed to yield a beer as light colored as Psuedo with M.O. and LME. Again, just my opinion.

Well if I remember correctly, Enjoy By is roughly half MO and half 2 -row. It's at least as light in color as Pseudosue and light in body. I think your perception of MO might be influenced by the types of beers you've used/had it in. Although, Enjoy By probably uses some simple sugars to dry it out so maybe that is changing what you are describing as a heavy, or viscous mouthfeel. I am not convinced that the flavor from Golden Promise is what I taste in Sue. It seems more like a biscuit (i.e. munich, victory, MO) flavor, than it does an intense sweetness (i.e. Golden Promise). Although, for a beer in the 5.5-6% abv range with calculated IBUs of 50, it has to have a decent bump of sweetness which may just be a light SRM of caramel and X-base malt, which is what we need to figure out.

 

[dlebert]

Is that true about "enjoy by" being a 50/50 mix? I have only had it once or twice (no distribution to WI). But from what I remember, it was very much in the same vein as Psuedo and Zombie dust. You could also be correct about my impression of MO vs golden promise. However, you guys might be interested in these threads about the differences between them...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/2-...-promise-vs-halcyon-vs-pearl-vs-optic-439642/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/base-malt-experiment-404932/

I should also say at this point that I haven't even bought a psuedo sue in months. So these discussions on the finer tweaking of the recipe may be better left for those of you with more knowledge than I.

 

[OscarBrau]

I brewed the following recipe over the weekend:

OG Approx 1.060
IBU: Approx 54

3.15 lb Maris Otter LME
4 lb light DME
.25 lb Wheat DME

1 lb steeped cara 20

.5 oz citra @ 15
.75 oz citra @ 10
1 oz citra @5
2 oz citra @ Flame out (let cool naturally to 180F)
2 oz citra @ 180F whirlpool for 30 minutes

Pitched decanted 1 liter starter of Wyeast 1272 at 62F. Will be fermenting for three weeks @ 66F.

It smelled like a hop bomb went off inside my house. I am going to add 2 oz of citra for a 7 day dry hop, then another ounce after a few days for a 4 day dry hop. 9.25 oz citra in total. A lot less than others have used on this thread, but I still think it will have incredible aroma and flavor.

I'll keep everyone posted. I doubt it will be comparable to Sue, so I've been calling it "Sorta Sue."

 

[Braufessor]

Looks delicious. Were the Citra from this year's harvest? I was blown away by how good the Citra was that I got this year. Brewed a Citra IPA with a big/long whirlpool addition (5 ounces/45 minutes). Did not even end up dry hopping it because it was so delicious at 12 days in fermenter...... just kegged it, as is. One of the best IPA's/APA's I have ever brewed.
I bittered mine with an ounce of warrior.

 

[OscarBrau]

Looks delicious. Were the Citra from this year's harvest? I was blown away by how good the Citra was that I got this year. Brewed a Citra IPA with a big/long whirlpool addition (5 ounces/45 minutes). Did not even end up dry hopping it because it was so delicious at 12 days in fermenter...... just kegged it, as is. One of the best IPA's/APA's I have ever brewed.
I bittered mine with an ounce of warrior.

I'm not sure which harvest it was. I bought one pound in December from the Bell's Brewery Homebrewing store, so it's probably 2014 crop. It's hop union brand and 14.5% AA. The aroma is incredible, though.

 

[globe]

I thought i would let everyone know that PseudoSue is much better this last batch...Its really worth picking up again. Not sure if they finally started using 2014 crop or what but its great once again.

 

[Braufessor]

I have been meaning to grab some bottles from the last batch, but did not get around to it. I was not real impressed with the batch before this one. Had it on tap and in the bottle.....neither were great. Glad to hear this one is getting back up to standard.

 

[geoffey]

I thought i would let everyone know that PseudoSue is much better this last batch...Its really worth picking up again. Not sure if they finally started using 2014 crop or what but its great once again.

I hope that's the case. I picked up a couple bottles a few weeks back and they were seriously close to dumpers. They were extreme bland and hardly worth finishing the bottle.