Toppling Goliath pseudoSue - Can you clone it?

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Doing a double brew for the 4th O'July Bash. Brewing Psuedo Sue and Black Mamba, my imperial black IPA, and using London ESB yeast for the PS. I will ferment a lil higher to take advantage of the yeasts fruity character.


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WiscoBrewer said:
Doing a double brew for the 4th O'July Bash. Brewing Psuedo Sue and Black Mamba, my imperial black IPA, and using London ESB yeast for the PS. I will ferment a lil higher to take advantage of the yeasts fruity character.


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Click to expand...

Sweet label
 
Brewed up the Double Sunshine Clone out of Brew Your Own magazine..... ended up being solidly in the ballpark of Pseudo Sue more than Double Sunshine (in my opinion). At any rate, I think 3 changes would make it really close to Sue. If I wanted to take this recipe and make it more like Sue than it already is, I would do 3 things:
1.) Drop the Sugar to increase the sweetness/fullness/mouthfeel.
2.) Change CTZ to Citra FWH or possibly just use a hopshot.
3.) More Citra..... It is kind of like an 80% Sue.... maybe another ounce or two at each addition.

Also..... Maybe 1272 yeast instead of 1056....
Also..... The only reason the caramalt addition was there is because the carapils was supposed to be 8 ounces and I only had 6, so I just added a bit of that in its place.

Anyway, here is what I brewed, and it is really pretty close - not exact, but it is right in the ballpark ..... It is an outstanding Citra IPA and I think it has some things to offer in regard to the clone attempt.

Double sunshine
Style: American IPA
Type: Calories: 199
Rating: 0.0 Boil Size: 8.0 Gal
IBU's: 74.07 Batch Size: 6.50 Gal
Color: 5.8 SRM Boil Time: 60 minutes


Brew Date: - 06/06/2014
OG: 1.061
FG: 1.013
ABV: 6.13 %
Efficiency: 85 %


Fermentation Steps
Days / Temp
Primary 12 days @ 64.0°F

Grains & Adjuncts
Amount Percentage Name Time Gravity
9.00 lbs 65.66 % Rahr 2-Row 60 mins 1.035
2.00 lbs 14.59 % Weyermann Vienna Malt 60 mins 1.038
0.50 lbs 3.65 % Oats, Flaked 60 mins 1.037
6.30 ozs 2.87 % Briess Carapils 60 mins 1.034
8.00 ozs 3.65 % Caramunich Malt 60 mins 1.033
1.00 lbs 7.30 % Corn Sugar (Dextrose) 60 mins 1.046
2.00 ozs 0.91 % Fawcett Caramalt 60 mins 1.034
3.00 ozs 1.37 % Acid Malt 60 mins 1.027

Hops
Amount IBU's Name Time AA %
1.00 ozs 34.69 Columbus (Tomahawk) 60 mins 14.00
1.00 ozs 19.81 Citra 20 mins 13.20
3.00 ozs 19.57 Citra 5 mins 13.20
3.00 ozs 0.00 Citra 0 mins 13.20
3.00 ozs Citra 4 days 13.20

Yeasts
Amount Name Laboratory / ID
1.0 pkg American Ale starter Wyeast Labs 1056

Additions
Amount Name
7.50 g Gypsum
1.00 g Calcium Chloride
0.50 tsp Yeast Nutrient 15 mins Boil
1.00 tbsp Irish Moss 15 mins Boil

Mash Profile
Medium Body Infusion In 60 min @ 152.0°F
Add 15.88 qt ( 1.25 qt/lb ) water @ 166.0°F

Carbonation
Force

Notes
90 % RO water, 10 % tap water.
Calcium 113
Sulfate 225
Chloride 30
Bicarbonate 40
Mash pH 5.3

Flameout hops..... Added after chilling started. Probably below 180. Finished chill to 60 degrees and let it sit 30 minutes or more to settle before transferring to fermenter.

Fermented about 12-14 days. Dry hop was 3-4 days. Kegged, carbed. Tasting quite good on day 16. This keg will never see 4 weeks old.....
 
Braufessor said:
Brewed up the Double Sunshine Clone out of Brew Your Own magazine..... ended up being solidly in the ballpark of Pseudo Sue more than Double Sunshine (in my opinion). At any rate, I think 3 changes would make it really close to Sue. If I wanted to take this recipe and make it more like Sue than it already is, I would do 3 things:
1.) Drop the Sugar to increase the sweetness/fullness/mouthfeel.
2.) Change CTZ to Citra FWH or possibly just use a hopshot.
3.) More Citra..... It is kind of like an 80% Sue.... maybe another ounce or two at each addition.

Also..... Maybe 1272 yeast instead of 1056....
Also..... The only reason the caramalt addition was there is because the carapils was supposed to be 8 ounces and I only had 6, so I just added a bit of that in its place.

Anyway, here is what I brewed, and it is really pretty close - not exact, but it is right in the ballpark ..... It is an outstanding Citra IPA and I think it has some things to offer in regard to the clone attempt.

Double sunshine
Style: American IPA
Type: Calories: 199
Rating: 0.0 Boil Size: 8.0 Gal
IBU's: 74.07 Batch Size: 6.50 Gal
Color: 5.8 SRM Boil Time: 60 minutes


Brew Date: - 06/06/2014
OG: 1.061
FG: 1.013
ABV: 6.13 %
Efficiency: 85 %


Fermentation Steps
Days / Temp
Primary 12 days @ 64.0°F

Grains & Adjuncts
Amount Percentage Name Time Gravity
9.00 lbs 65.66 % Rahr 2-Row 60 mins 1.035
2.00 lbs 14.59 % Weyermann Vienna Malt 60 mins 1.038
0.50 lbs 3.65 % Oats, Flaked 60 mins 1.037
6.30 ozs 2.87 % Briess Carapils 60 mins 1.034
8.00 ozs 3.65 % Caramunich Malt 60 mins 1.033
1.00 lbs 7.30 % Corn Sugar (Dextrose) 60 mins 1.046
2.00 ozs 0.91 % Fawcett Caramalt 60 mins 1.034
3.00 ozs 1.37 % Acid Malt 60 mins 1.027

Hops
Amount IBU's Name Time AA %
1.00 ozs 34.69 Columbus (Tomahawk) 60 mins 14.00
1.00 ozs 19.81 Citra 20 mins 13.20
3.00 ozs 19.57 Citra 5 mins 13.20
3.00 ozs 0.00 Citra 0 mins 13.20
3.00 ozs Citra 4 days 13.20

Yeasts
Amount Name Laboratory / ID
1.0 pkg American Ale starter Wyeast Labs 1056

Additions
Amount Name
7.50 g Gypsum
1.00 g Calcium Chloride
0.50 tsp Yeast Nutrient 15 mins Boil
1.00 tbsp Irish Moss 15 mins Boil

Mash Profile
Medium Body Infusion In 60 min @ 152.0°F
Add 15.88 qt ( 1.25 qt/lb ) water @ 166.0°F

Carbonation
Force

Notes
90 % RO water, 10 % tap water.
Calcium 113
Sulfate 225
Chloride 30
Bicarbonate 40
Mash pH 5.3

Flameout hops..... Added after chilling started. Probably below 180. Finished chill to 60 degrees and let it sit 30 minutes or more to settle before transferring to fermenter.

Fermented about 12-14 days. Dry hop was 3-4 days. Kegged, carbed. Tasting quite good on day 16. This keg will never see 4 weeks old.....
Click to expand...

Braufessor was nice enough to send me a bottle of this, a real Sue, and two other homebrews! My tasting notes echoed his 3 thoughts, and I'd probably also raise the mash temp a smidge. Other than that, it was pretty close, and delicious!
 
If you Madison guys want to have a tasting I'd be all for it.

I brewed up a version of this with 2-row and us-05 since that's what I had. I used the recipe wiscobrewer posted on 4/17. It's really good, but I'd love to hear your feedback.
 
I'd be down for that, just kegged my last attempt with London ESB fermented at high temps. Going in it tasted pretty good. To me, it tasted like the oniony batch of PS from a few months back, fiancé says it tastes right on. Either way not much aroma, not sure what happened there. Also have my oatmeal breakfast stout and Black Mamba black ipa.


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I'm not getting onion flavors with mine, but I'll admit I don't have the most accurate palate. I ordered my hops from yakima valley.

Hopefully Adaman05 can get in on a tasting. When will your's be carbed?
 
McNasty said:
I'm not getting onion flavors with mine, but I'll admit I don't have the most accurate palate. I ordered my hops from yakima valley.

Hopefully Adaman05 can get in on a tasting. When will your's be carbed?
Click to expand...


I used Hop Union pellets again. Sent an email out to TGB asking if they'd give me their citra source, but got no reply. Are you getting a good mango flavor from the Yakima Valley citra?

My PS clone should be carbed by the end of the week. I only have room in my dorm size kegerator for two kegs. So the oatmeal breakfast stout may have to come out to get the black ipa carbed up. I do have a 3 way manifold, I use for parties, that I could carb it up at room temp...or in a bucket of ice lol.


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Yeah, I definitely got a strong mango flavor. I was not disappointed at all with Yakima valley. I did compare it to the last batch of Sue and there was some differences in the hop profile. Both were good, just different. I would say mine was fruitier.

I messed up my sparge water, so the abv is actually around 6.7%. I could've corrected it, but decided not to. I had to ferment at basement temps which is on the cold side. I need to build a collar for the ferm chamber, so I can play with temps next time.

I'll probably try a more aggressive water profile too. I use 75% RO and the rest tap. Then added some gypsum, calc chloride and epsom.

Calcium 86
magnesium 14
sodium 1
chloride 58
sulfate 125
I used some acid malt to get the mash ph to 5.56.

I'm leaving town on thursday and wont be back until tuesday next week. No need to rush your beer. I have about a half keg left.
 
I'm certainly up for a tasting! Although, I have nothing on tap at the moment to contribute :( My next brews will be a Bavarian hefe and a Heady Topper clone for my 30th.
 
I just used a pound of Citra in a DIPA and it is a mango bomb. I have had beers with real mango in it with less mango aroma than this. The beer was just kegged so hopefully it will change a little bit. Its getting to the point where I would like to to be able to pick crops like the pros do. I prefer the version of citra is in pseudo sue for sure.
 
Where'd you buy your citra from? Yakima is out. I'm brewing a similar beer this weekend but using Mosaic instead.
 
Farmhouse brewing supply. Great service and fast shipping. I highly recommend for buying hops, especially if you have a vacuum sealer.
 
So, I'm completely new to this. Apologies to WiscoBrewer for bastardizing his recipe - I converted his recipe to extract with Beersmith and came up with the following:

BRecipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 6.00 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.63 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.10 gal
Estimated OG: 1.074 SG
Estimated Color: 7.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 89.9 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 0.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
1 lbs 8.0 oz Carafoam (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 10.7 %
0.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 2 13.0 IBUs
8.0 oz DME Wheat Bavarian (Briess) (8.0 SRM) Dry Extract 3 3.6 %
12 lbs Maris Otter Extract (4.5 SRM) Extract 4 85.7 %
1.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 5 19.3 IBUs
1.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 6 14.1 IBUs
1.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 7 7.8 IBUs
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 45.0 Hop 8 35.8 IBUs
2.0 pkg London ESB Ale (Wyeast Labs #1968) [124. Yeast 9 -
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 10 0.0 IBUs
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days Hop 11 0.0 IBUs


What do people think?

Thanks!
 
Looks like a good shot to me.... I like the Maris Otter extract. That should be a nice touch.

The one thing I would say is that you have to treat 1968 right. I just rebrewed my "double sunshine" recipe referenced earlier in this thread and used 1968. It was a repitch of yeast, straight off a smaller beer - so it was in good shape. It crashed out on me at 1.020 and I ended up with a REALLY sweet beer. I pitched some 1056 into my keg hoping to get a few more gravity points.

*Make sure you have an active, healthy stater
*Make sure you let the temp. rise gradually over fermentation up to 68-70 probably by day 4-5-6.
*Make sure you rouse the yeast every 2 days or so - this one drops out like lead.

It is a good yeast, but, if you don't rouse it, you will end up with a 1.020 malt-bomb like I just did.
 
Thanks for your advice - all very helpful! I'll post back to update.


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I am using a recipe very close to Wisco's with a pound of citra for a 5 gallon batch. I saved 5 ounces for dry hopping in 2 stages. Tonight was my final hop addition and I can detect that slight onion flavor. That flavor was not there before dry hopping. Right after fermentation it tasted of sweet mango. Im not a fan of the onion flavor, so I think I will skip dry hopping on my next batch and see what happens. Anyone else experience this?
 
Shawn-of-the-Dead said:
I am using a recipe very close to Wisco's with a pound of citra for a 5 gallon batch. I saved 5 ounces for dry hopping in 2 stages. Tonight was my final hop addition and I can detect that slight onion flavor. That flavor was not there before dry hopping. Right after fermentation it tasted of sweet mango. Im not a fan of the onion flavor, so I think I will skip dry hopping on my next batch and see what happens. Anyone else experience this?
Click to expand...


Wow, a pound of Citra! I used 8 oz and it came out VERY close to PS in aroma and taste.

But yes, I can corroborate the onion flavor with the dry hop addition. Thing is though, the last growler of Sue I picked up has the same flavor. I didn't recall that from the bottled version I had previously. But it might just be a taste that was there before which I'm just picking up more of now that I'm aware of it. I asked my wife to taste it (my homebrew version) and she got only grapefruit and citrus, no onion flavor even after I asked about it specifically.





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Adaman05 said:
So I was actually able to procure 4 bottles today in Madison. I was excited and popped my version of it after only 1 day in the bottle to compare. The Sue is in the goblet. Color wasn't as off as I thought it was. Sue tastes better, though mine is not nearly done conditioning. There's a breadiness to Sue that's not coming across in mine, which is interesting since I used a lot of Golden Promise. Aroma seems dead on. Mine is drier, which is to be expected since it finished at 1.010 and Sue finishes at 1.016. Damn, Sue is so good. It looks like mashing high with American yeast is the way to go so it finishes sweet. Mine is a touch too bitter as well.
Click to expand...

mashing higher will produce a beer with more body but probably not more sweetness. dextrines - the long chain unfermentable sugars that you encourage by mashing higher - actually are not sweet in the way that shorter ones are. what you want to do is encourage the retention of the shorter, sweeter sugar molecules.

if you think that the beer needs more sweetness, you'll want to discourage attenuation. choosing a yeast that quits earlier is the way to go.
 
geoffey said:
Wow, a pound of Citra! I used 8 oz and it came out VERY close to PS in aroma and taste.

But yes, I can corroborate the onion flavor with the dry hop addition. Thing is though, the last growler of Sue I picked up has the same flavor. I didn't recall that from the bottled version I had previously. But it might just be a taste that was there before which I'm just picking up more of now that I'm aware of it. I asked my wife to taste it (my homebrew version) and she got only grapefruit and citrus, no onion flavor even after I asked about it specifically.





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Click to expand...

I had initial onion flavor when I brewed this but it faded and was an awesome beer. Even with the onion I did not mind it - super good. And I asked my wife and she did not notice so may have been over analyzing.

Has anyone else been brewing this?! I haven't seen much on this thread lately and the brew I did off of this was one of my favorite
 
I really wanted the King Sue, but I was only able to get the Sosus this time around. However, I do currently have this pseudosue recipe on tap but with Mosaic hops so I was able to compare the hop flavors.

Next up is a Golden Nugget clone.
 
McNasty said:
I really wanted the King Sue, but I was only able to get the Sosus this time around. However, I do currently have this pseudosue recipe on tap but with Mosaic hops so I was able to compare the hop flavors.

Next up is a Golden Nugget clone.
Click to expand...

The night before the GTMW I was able to have Pseudo dry hopped with Mosaic. I didn't like it. Tasted cat pissy to me. How was yours?
 
I really like this beer. I don't detect a distinct cat piss flavor in mine. Maybe you could describe it like that. This is my first time exploring all these hops. I use TG as a point of reference. It's been fun so far.

We're having a BBQ today if you want to try it out. I'm at 444 N. Baldwin. I'm really hoping the Nugget one turns out. Those are half the price.
 
I was out of town when King Sue hit :(. Ive been missing Sosus for a while now as well. For those of you that think you have gotten close to Sue where are your getting your Citra?
 
I bought mine from Yakima Valley. They did not disappoint. I'd pour one and you could smell it as soon as you open the tap.
 
I actually like sosus over sue! Too bad these guys won't even give a hint on how they hop that one either (they never replied to my email at least)
 
I sent an email asking if they'd share where they source their hops. No reply, not even a thanks for liking our beer!


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They are pretty tight lipped about their recipes, especially sue. No way Mike or Clark would give out sourcing info. I've tried in person a couple times and couldn't get much of anything from them.

I just brewed a zombie dust clone with pellets and leaf hops from Williams. Second time I've used their Citra and I'm really impressed over others I've used. The first few days in the keg (w/ leaf hops & force carbed at 30psi for 36 hrs) tasted exactly like fresh sue from a hop profile stand point. Maybe force carbing while dry hopping has something to do with it? Either way it was incredible the first week but the crispness is dieing off.
 
Any thoughts about how well a Sue-like clone made with mosaic would turn out?

I'm planning a SMASH with Golden Promise and Mosaic using the same hopping schedule as the Sue clones.


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rivercity_homebrew said:
Any thoughts about how well a Sue-like clone made with mosaic would turn out?

I'm planning a SMASH with Golden Promise and Mosaic using the same hopping schedule as the Sue clones.


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Click to expand...

It would probably turn out something like Sosus:) That is their Mosaic DIPA. I would think it would be a great SMASH recipe.
 
Founders just released a SMASH of the two call Mosaic Promise. It's good stuff. I love me some Mosaic hops.
 
McNasty said:
Founders just released a SMASH of the two call Mosaic Promise. It's good stuff. I love me some Mosaic hops.
Click to expand...

I was underwhelmed by Mosaic Promise, but just because I felt like they needed to use way more late hop additions. The flavor was there, just not POW like Sue. But pleasant nonetheless :)

Picked up my first Sue in a looong time tonight for the Packer game. Been off the Citra kick for a while but now I've got my craving back. I think it's time I revisit another Sue clone attempt. I'd love to collaborate and brew with any of you Madison peeps.
 
First of all, thanks to all for your contributions to this thread/recipe. PseudoSue is my favorite beer and I have been wanting to try to clone it. I brewed WiscoBrewer's hop schedule (a whole pound of Citra!) and Adaman's grain bill. I ended up using S-05 because of Clark's endorsement and I had some on hand.

It's finally kegged and carbed and I absolutely love it! I don't have the most refined palate, but to me it's is as good as cloned. I have a couple bottles of Sue in the fridge; I may do a side by side just for fun. My batch had a SG of 1.059 and FG of 1.010 so it's a little drier.

I'm already planning to brew it again. For v2, I may try to cut back the hops slightly and use 1272 on FromGraintoGlass' hunch. Here's my recipe if anyone's interested:

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
11 lbs Golden Promise (Simpsons) (2.0 SRM) Grain 6 91.7 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 7 8.3 %
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 8 -
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 9 18.8 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 10 27.5 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 11 15.1 IBUs
5.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 45.0 Hop 12 26.1 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 13 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) Yeast 14 -
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 15 0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days Hop 16 0.0 IBUs

Mash @ 156, Fermented @ 65-67
Thanks again everyone, cheers!
 

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