Toppling Goliath pseudoSue - Can you clone it?

[Adaman05]

In my opinion, I don't think TGB uses dextrose in this recipe. It would dry it out and you'd lose the "sweet/juiciness" this beer has, which I believe Adam was alluding to in the previous page describing his last attempt. I'm thinking this is going to end up being an illusively simple malt bill, using their yeast strain. I will continue using the London ESB until we get the malt bill closer though.

Yes, definitely lose the sugar.

 

[cysiam]

I know it's a long shot, but I was planning attempt a clone of this next weekend, and I'd love to get a bottle to compare mine to. Anybody have any they'd be willing to share?

 

[WiscoBrewer]

That IS a looooooong shot!

 

[Gear101]

Posted on FB
BeerMurph is headed to Des Moines today with your Pseudo Sue bottles! How is that for a snowy Monday!!

Hy-Vee on Valley West Des Moines
Hy-Vee Mills Civic Parkway West Des Moines
Hy-Vee in Pleasant Hill
Hy-Vee on State Street Ankeny
Wine Styles in Mills Civic Parkway
Cyclone Liquors- Ames
Hy-Vee on University Avenue Waterloo
Hy-Vee on Fluer Driv

 

[Shawn-of-the-Dead]

The 'Nova in Hudson WI just got their shipment today. Now I'm good to go for a while!

 

[Herky21]

The release this week was 7% because their system was unexpectedly efficient - new 30 bbl. brewhouse. Keep that in mind if you are comparing. My friend said he didn't enjoy the 7% nearly as much, but I'm sure it is still great.

 

[WiscoBrewer]

Sadly, in Madison we're limited to 1 bottle per customer.


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[Adaman05]

Sadly, in Madison we're limited to 1 bottle per customer.


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Nay, my friend! I just picked up the 7% at Trixie's. It's a TWO bottle limit this time. I've also gotten two at a time at Alpine Liquor before on Cottage Grove Road. Trixie's takes phone reservations. Call today!

 

[Adaman05]

I'm drinking the 7% now. I still prefer the regular Sue, but this 7% is better than 99/100 beers IMO. It's really really clear too...

 

[WiscoBrewer]

Star liquor also does 2 bottles, but you gotta be there early. I used to go to Alpine Liquor in Oregon for two plus they where fairly "hidden" and can get it late. The last time I called to check at Alpine and was told they were going to a 1 bottle limit to "spread it out " and wouldn't be selling until the day after deliveries. Steve's also does 1 bottle the last time I checked anyway. I got off early and am heading to Star and calling Trixies!


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[WiscoBrewer]

Got my two Psue at Star, Trixies sold out. Star actually got some Zombie Dust last week too.


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[Adaman05]

Got my two Psue at Star, Trixies sold out. Star actually got some Zombie Dust last week too.


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Steve's got some ZD too. I missed out.

 

[WiscoBrewer]

So if Psue loses it's haziness because of the new brewing system, that kind of tells us there's no wheat in recipe, doesn't it?


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[WiscoBrewer]

I'm drinking the 7% now. I still prefer the regular Sue, but this 7% is better than 99/100 beers IMO. It's really really clear too...

It's interesting to try the same recipe with two different efficiencies. In my opinion the extra alcohol hides "sweet/juiciness" that the lower abv version has. Don't get me wrong it's still there, but not the same.

p.s. When you get hop burps, you know that ****s fresh!

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[Shawn-of-the-Dead]

The release this week was 7% because their system was unexpectedly efficient - new 30 bbl. brewhouse. Keep that in mind if you are comparing. My friend said he didn't enjoy the 7% nearly as much, but I'm sure it is still great.

I thought the new batch was a little different. I felt it did not taste as bright and crisp, lost a bit of the citrus edge. Still good.

I am currently trying to harvest a bit of the yeast to use on my clone. Anyone have success doing this before?

 

[Herky21]

I thought the new batch was a little different. I felt it did not taste as bright and crisp, lost a bit of the citrus edge. Still good.

I am currently trying to harvest a bit of the yeast to use on my clone. Anyone have success doing this before?

I've had success doing this with Heady Topper. You just pour the beer like usual, but leave enough beer at the bottom to swirl around to collect the yeast. You then sanitize the end of the bottle. Some people use blow torches, but I just get some starsan foam on my fingers and put it anywhere the yeast might reasonably touch. Then you pour it into a sanitized container or directly into your yeast starter flask or bottle. If you can, get yeast from more than one bottle. Than start with relatively small yeast starters, 1-2 cups, and then step up the size a couple times until you have a 2-2.5 liter starter essentially.

I used 4 cans and kept the yeast in a sanitized container in the fridge for a week or 3 before I did my starter. I still have a large amount of the yeast after reharvesting from a double IPA I made.

 

[iowabrew]

Just had Sue on tap this past Saturday, at el bait shop in des moines. Don't know whether it was the 7% or not but it was damn delicious. Keep us posted on these clones!

 

[skibb]

Just had this beer for the first time - it was amazing! But, it doesn't taste like any all Citra beers I've had before...is it confirmed that this is a single hopped (at least for flavor/aroma) Citra beer? I honestly think there's something else in there...

 

[WiscoBrewer]

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[Shawn-of-the-Dead]

Picture worth a thousand words.

 

[skibb]

Ah nice!! Damn I wonder what special magic they are using to get such flavor!

 

[Herky21]

Picture worth a thousand words.

well, it's a picture of words so it's worth that many words... haha.

On a more serious note, I have always wondered if they used a hop back. I theorize that they use it right at flameout and maybe right before packaging. Whatever they are doing is difficult to pin down - as we can all see.

 

[WiscoBrewer]

I suspect they use a hopback as well. The whirlpool didn't quite get it there for me. Unless I had the wrong temp or amount there must be some other method, but I've never used a hopback so I don't know if it would be a better technique to extract this flavor or not. Maybe a heavy whirlpool into a hopback?


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[skibb]

I've used citra in a hop-back several times - I've yet to experience a flavor like I get outta psue.

I'm thinking 2 things - first, they maybe chilling their wort down to 170 before throwing in their whirlpool hops and or hop-backing to preserve as much myrcene as they can. Or, they might very selective of the hops they use. Perhaps they select from lots that allow the citra to sit on the bine longer and concentrate it's oil content more. I've ah cascade hops that were so incredibly orangy and I came to find out they were harvested a few days later than normal. I think there's more info about the reasons behind/process in Stan's Hops book.
If the latter's the case than it would be near impossible for us to replicate this beer

 

[WiscoBrewer]

I have a citra / centennial recipe I have made about a half a dozen times that doesn't have a whirlpool or hopback. I've been chasing an almost orange juice flavor that I got the second time I made it and have yet to replicate it again. Maybe you're right about the harvest times and I got lucky once with an awesome beer that would get psuedo in the ring. That truly would be a downer if what you're saying is the case, I'll be lucky to replicate it or this.


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[Shawn-of-the-Dead]

I have confirmed from the brewer that no hopback is used in the making of PseudoSue....there goes that idea.
I have my own batch fermenting at the moment, I call it "SortaSue". I am using the actual Pseudo yeast from their bottles. So far the vapor lock smells amazing. I'll post some tasting notes in a about a month when it is ready.

 

[Adaman05]

Newest batch of Sue tastes far more bitter... Anybody else get that? It's back to being cloudy again.


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[iowabrew]

Super cloudy. I still love it

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[Herky21]

Newest batch of Sue tastes far more bitter... Anybody else get that? It's back to being cloudy again.


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On twitter the brewer said that this batch would be without clarifiers and back to being cloudy

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[Adaman05]

I've got 3 bottles of fresh, cloudy Sue that I will consume today. Rough, I know? I'm collecting the dregs and will step up a starter with that. Wisco and I might be collaborating on another clone attempt next weekend since we're both in Madison.

Some thoughts we've gathered along the way:

Target 1.060 OG, 1.016 FG.
Mash high.
Probably no wheat?
Golden promise base malt, with probably some caramel malts.
Cut the sugar
Probably try a mash hop

What do you all think about the hop schedule?

 

[WiscoBrewer]

I'm thinking something like this;

86% Golden Promise
9% Caramel Malt 10L
5% Caramel Malt 20L

Mashed @154 60min
60min Boil
68 IBU

2oz 15min
2oz 10min
3oz 5min
Maybe a flame out addition?
5oz 45min Whirlpool @180-185

2oz 7days dry hop
2oz 3days dry hop

In my opinion they use minimal if any bittering hops (including mash and first wort), it's all about the hop flavor.

 

[Shawn-of-the-Dead]

Here's what I did.
.5 oz mash
.5 oz 20 min.
1 oz. Flame out
2 oz when wort cooled to 160 (whirlpool)
I am reserving 2 oz for dry hopping in 1 week. Not sure if I should dry hop with 1 or 2 oz. I am leaning towards 2, what the he'll!

Any feedback would be great.

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[dlebert]

Alright here is what I did.

11 lbs 5 oz golden promise
9 oz crystal 20L
6 oz crystal 10L
9 oz white wheat
S-04 yeast with a 1.0L starter

Hops

1 oz FWH
.25 oz 10'
.75 oz 5'
2 oz 1'
2 oz hopstand at flameout - let cool to 180 ~15'
3 oz hopstand at 180-175 for 25'

2 oz dryhop - 7 days
2 oz dryhop - 4 days

Mash

20' protein rest at 133
60' mash at 153
(used purified water from store rather than harsh Madison water)

Fermentation at 68-70

Tasting Notes with side by side comparison of the real Psuedo...

The clone is WAY too hazy. There is absolutely zero wheat in the current batch of pseudo. I swear this beer was once cloudy, but it absolutely is not now.

The color is Very close. The haziness throws it off, but I will up the Crystal 20L a few notches. Only about 1-2 L off.

The clone is slightly too bitter. I think they must use some bittering hops, but only a little. I will cut it down to .5 oz of FWH (a.a. of 12.5%)

The aroma is right on! I think the two hopstands were KEY. I honestly don't know that my dryhops added all that much to the aroma. In fact, I think the last batch of Citra I purchased was a bit "stale". I noticed it when I opened the packages. I could notice it again when I was trying the finished product (Though nobody else in the group could, one of the tasters thought mine was better than the real deal). I think this is where the biggest issue with clones is. We have to buy these little packets of hops and hope they are all fresh. The brewer buys in BULK and they get the best of the best. For a single hop beer, this makes a big difference.

Here are my suggestions...

Absolutely no sugar added. Bump the crystal 20L for a bit of color. Body was right on. No white wheat at all. May have to bump the crystal 10L to compensate for the loss of wheat. The low mash temp is correct. The yeast also seems good, though I cannot compare it to the S-05 as others have. May reduce the hopstand by an ounce and spread it across the earlier hop additions to increase the hop complexity.

Alright, Cheers and good luck!

 

[Adaman05]

Alright here is what I did.

11 lbs 5 oz golden promise
9 oz crystal 20L
6 oz crystal 10L
9 oz white wheat
S-04 yeast with a 1.0L starter

Hops

1 oz FWH
.25 oz 10'
.75 oz 5'
2 oz 1'
2 oz hopstand at flameout - let cool to 180 ~15'
3 oz hopstand at 180-175 for 25'

2 oz dryhop - 7 days
2 oz dryhop - 4 days

Mash

20' protein rest at 133
60' mash at 153
(used purified water from store rather than harsh Madison water)

Fermentation at 68-70

Tasting Notes with side by side comparison of the real Psuedo...

The clone is WAY too hazy. There is absolutely zero wheat in the current batch of pseudo. I swear this beer was once cloudy, but it absolutely is not now.

The color is Very close. The haziness throws it off, but I will up the Crystal 20L a few notches. Only about 1-2 L off.

The clone is slightly too bitter. I think they must use some bittering hops, but only a little. I will cut it down to .5 oz of FWH (a.a. of 12.5%)

The aroma is right on! I think the two hopstands were KEY. I honestly don't know that my dryhops added all that much to the aroma. In fact, I think the last batch of Citra I purchased was a bit "stale". I noticed it when I opened the packages. I could notice it again when I was trying the finished product (Though nobody else in the group could, one of the tasters thought mine was better than the real deal). I think this is where the biggest issue with clones is. We have to buy these little packets of hops and hope they are all fresh. The brewer buys in BULK and they get the best of the best. For a single hop beer, this makes a big difference.

Here are my suggestions...

Absolutely no sugar added. Bump the crystal 20L for a bit of color. Body was right on. No white wheat at all. May have to bump the crystal 10L to compensate for the loss of wheat. The low mash temp is correct. The yeast also seems good, though I cannot compare it to the S-05 as others have. May reduce the hopstand by an ounce and spread it across the earlier hop additions to increase the hop complexity.

Alright, Cheers and good luck!

I like the idea of two hopstands and reducing, or even losing, the bittering addition. I have previously been treating my Madison water with lactic acid and campden, but this time around I'm going to use RO water and add some gypsum and calcium chloride.

FYI - Madison folks. Golden Nugget is on tap at Dexter's Pub as of yesterday. I'm sure it won't last long. I'll be over there enjoying a couple pints around 1 today.

 

[LoneTreeFarms]

Nothing positive to add other than yum and subbed.


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[Herky21]

Alright here is what I did.

11 lbs 5 oz golden promise
9 oz crystal 20L
6 oz crystal 10L
9 oz white wheat
S-04 yeast with a 1.0L starter

Hops

1 oz FWH
.25 oz 10'
.75 oz 5'
2 oz 1'
2 oz hopstand at flameout - let cool to 180 ~15'
3 oz hopstand at 180-175 for 25'

2 oz dryhop - 7 days
2 oz dryhop - 4 days

Mash

20' protein rest at 133
60' mash at 153
(used purified water from store rather than harsh Madison water)

Fermentation at 68-70

Tasting Notes with side by side comparison of the real Psuedo...

The clone is WAY too hazy. There is absolutely zero wheat in the current batch of pseudo. I swear this beer was once cloudy, but it absolutely is not now.

The color is Very close. The haziness throws it off, but I will up the Crystal 20L a few notches. Only about 1-2 L off.

The clone is slightly too bitter. I think they must use some bittering hops, but only a little. I will cut it down to .5 oz of FWH (a.a. of 12.5%)

The aroma is right on! I think the two hopstands were KEY. I honestly don't know that my dryhops added all that much to the aroma. In fact, I think the last batch of Citra I purchased was a bit "stale". I noticed it when I opened the packages. I could notice it again when I was trying the finished product (Though nobody else in the group could, one of the tasters thought mine was better than the real deal). I think this is where the biggest issue with clones is. We have to buy these little packets of hops and hope they are all fresh. The brewer buys in BULK and they get the best of the best. For a single hop beer, this makes a big difference.

Here are my suggestions...

Absolutely no sugar added. Bump the crystal 20L for a bit of color. Body was right on. No white wheat at all. May have to bump the crystal 10L to compensate for the loss of wheat. The low mash temp is correct. The yeast also seems good, though I cannot compare it to the S-05 as others have. May reduce the hopstand by an ounce and spread it across the earlier hop additions to increase the hop complexity.

Alright, Cheers and good luck!

you probably just had a batch with finings. The most recent batch is back to hazy. The brewer said via twitter that Sue was going back to being hazy, no finings. I don't think it changes the beer too much, but for some reason I prefer it hazy.

 

[WiscoBrewer]

Where are you guys seeing comments from the brewer on twitter? I'm following TGB, but don't see anything about this.


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[Herky21]

Where are you guys seeing comments from the brewer on twitter? I'm following TGB, but don't see anything about this.


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Follow @Brewmastamike

 

[dlebert]

you probably just had a batch with finings. The most recent batch is back to hazy. The brewer said via twitter that Sue was going back to being hazy, no finings. I don't think it changes the beer too much, but for some reason I prefer it hazy.

Yeah that could be it. I remember the beer being hazy like the growler picture above. The last batch (and the one I did the side by side with) really made me second guess the wheat. Regardless, I am going to reduce the wheat added. Also, this beer really needs to be drank fast! The mango and passion fruit subsides pretty quickly.

 

[Shawn-of-the-Dead]

My attempt at Pseudo seems a little too bitter, light on citrus flavors. Think I'll keep the .5 FWH then add everything else after flame out.
Here is a photo of the skin that formed on top of my fermenter. I used the actual Pseudo yeast harvested from their bottles. Skin was 1/2" thick and spongy. Yeast on the bottom clumped up like gravel.

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