WLP 029 has been my go-to Kolsch strain in prior batches and I always enjoyed it, so if you liked Koln even more, consider me intrigued. With a couple weeks cold in the bottle I rarely (if ever) had issues with 029 clearing up nicely.
Top 5 Dry Yeasts?
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Die Schwarzbier Polizei
I listed it as "my desert-island strain" because it's a universal yeast and can be used in a variety of styles. Actually any top-fermented style that doesn't demand a particular yeast character may be brewed with it, depending on the fermentation temperature. Lalbrew Koeln has pretty low character of its own, unlike other dry Koelsch yeasts, like K-97 (which is tart) and M54 (which is much more fruity). It's a pretty neutral yeast as far as dry Koelsch yeasts go. I've used it in my Koelsches, Altbiers, Kuitbiers, Graetzers, Grain Wines (Wheatwine, Ryewine, Oatwine), Fruit, Flower and Herbal Beers, Pseudo Lagers, Smoked Ales, Historical and Medieval European Beers and in other styles. I use it every time when I need an ale with a clean yeast profile or when I make an experimental brew or a historical recipe where the yeast is not specified - for those Lalbrew Koelsch is the default yeast, for which there's a solid historical ground. (Most of yeast strains in pre-Lager Continental Europe were probably related to what we now know as German Ale yeasts, and the sequencing of Kveik has also revealed its origin from the same branch). Also I prefer it in my American ales, although I brew them mostly with US-05 just for the authenticity (I don't brew American beers too often, I have to say).
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I've just recently started using Koln, and love it. Better in every way than K97! I've also found that it's slow to clear, though after three or four weeks cold the beer is absolutely brilliant.
Very cool. I'm definitely going to have to try it next. I've got a bock with 34/70 going right now, but once that's kegged I was hoping to get a Kolsch fired up soon for my wife's birthday late next month. It's her favorite style.
When I first had learned that North Coast Brewing Co. uses a German Ale strain (Altbier, I believe) to make Old Rasputin, my mind was blown. I have since heard of a few folks like yourself that use German ale yeasts as their house strain for all sorts of different styles.
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Die Schwarzbier Polizei
It makes absolutely fantastic Koelsch.
As long as this yeast is very neutral when fermented cold and lets the malts shine through, you'll want to make your Koelsch of the very best available malts, preferably employ a decoction mash, lager it for at least a month (then it settles perfectly, being bit powdery in the beginning) and don't go too high on hops to avoid overshadowing the subtle malt flavours which this yeast conveys best than any other top-fermenting dry strain.
As long as this yeast is very neutral when fermented cold and lets the malts shine through, you'll want to make your Koelsch of the very best available malts, preferably employ a decoction mash, lager it for at least a month (then it settles perfectly, being bit powdery in the beginning) and don't go too high on hops to avoid overshadowing the subtle malt flavours which this yeast conveys best than any other top-fermenting dry strain.
I would just like to say - this thread is awesome. I've been a liquid yeast user for decades (aside from a few times using S-05) and it's nice to read about everyone's favorites so I have a starting point. Thanks to all that have replied to it!
What differentiates this one from the classic neutral ale yeasts like us05 and bry97?
Good to hear! My brewing history is quite similar, using liquid yeast from the start for over a decade now. Jumping into dry yeasts and hearing peoples’ experiences (both the good and the bad) with different strains has definitely gotten me excited about brewing again.
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US05 always **HAD** a history of throwing peach when fermented in lower 60s F, as well as clearing slowly.
However, given what has happened in the last few years with S04, being different than it used to be years ago (@dmtaylor and @Northern_Brewer may have much more knowledge on this) perhaps the same is true with US05?
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Die Schwarzbier Polizei
I don't deem US-05 as a neutral yeast. To me, it's kind of tart (though less tart than K-97) and peachy.
BRY97 has essentially the same flavour profile as US-05, maybe a bit more tart and a bit less fruity. With neither of both I've ever achieved same clean grainy flavour coming through which I easily get with Lalbrew Köln. Fermented cold, it has no flavour of it's own. That's why I use Köln as a universal all-around yeast, while US05 and BRY097 only for American styles.
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Die Schwarzbier Polizei
From US05, I'm getting peach at medium and higher temperatures and increased tartness at cooler temps.
BrewnWKopperKat
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How long does fermentation run?
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Die Schwarzbier Polizei
I keep (almost) all my beers in primary for 3 weeks. Visible signs of fermentation with US05 are over in 7-8 days. Clarification in about 15-18 days.
brewbama
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1. Bry-97 American Ale
2. S-04 English Ale
3. BE-134 Belgian Ale (Trappist/Abbey styles specifically)
4. W34/70 All-purpose Lager
5. Verdant for NEIPA. Random one you just really love.
Despite what some say, IMO one 11 gram package of dried yeast is rarely recommended by the mfr’s guidelines.
I pitch as the fermenter is filling to mix it in well.
2. S-04 English Ale
3. BE-134 Belgian Ale (Trappist/Abbey styles specifically)
4. W34/70 All-purpose Lager
5. Verdant for NEIPA. Random one you just really love.
Despite what some say, IMO one 11 gram package of dried yeast is rarely recommended by the mfr’s guidelines.
I pitch as the fermenter is filling to mix it in well.
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I was just watching a video from @Bobby_M doing his 15th anniversary beer. He did a split batch, with half of it using S-04. From what I can tell he still got some weirdness from that strain compared to the liquid counterpart. I don’t know why but that’s the dry strain I’m still the most gun-shy of.
BYO recently had an interview with Mitch Steele (former Stone brewmaster, now of New Realm) and he talked about using S-04 for his brew pub’s take on Fuller’s London Porter. I also read a Brulosphy article recently where they compared S-04 to Imperial A09 Pub, and the results were not significant.
It makes me wonder how much of our perception of certain strains is dependent upon the characteristics we’ve heard of or been told we’ll find in them. But on the other hand I wonder if certain dry yeasts still haven’t actually caught up to the liquid cultures. I know I’m just going to have to try them all and see what I think.
Other than 34/70 and maybe S-189, I feel like most people seem to have better experiences with the Lallemand strains over Fermentis. “US-05 is peachy, S-04 tastes like sourdough, K-97 is a murky mess…” does this track or are those just opinions that might just be based off of old stereotypes?
BYO recently had an interview with Mitch Steele (former Stone brewmaster, now of New Realm) and he talked about using S-04 for his brew pub’s take on Fuller’s London Porter. I also read a Brulosphy article recently where they compared S-04 to Imperial A09 Pub, and the results were not significant.
It makes me wonder how much of our perception of certain strains is dependent upon the characteristics we’ve heard of or been told we’ll find in them. But on the other hand I wonder if certain dry yeasts still haven’t actually caught up to the liquid cultures. I know I’m just going to have to try them all and see what I think.
Other than 34/70 and maybe S-189, I feel like most people seem to have better experiences with the Lallemand strains over Fermentis. “US-05 is peachy, S-04 tastes like sourdough, K-97 is a murky mess…” does this track or are those just opinions that might just be based off of old stereotypes?
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Die Schwarzbier Polizei
It depends. I can't compare liquid to dry because I have no easy access to the liquid yeasts and use them very rarely but I hope I've amassed some useful experience with most of the dry strains from Fermentis, Lallemand, Mangrove Jack's and Gozdawa. It's not as simple as "Lallemand is better and Fermentis is worse than MJ". Each style category has its winners and loosers indepentently of the brand.
I won't present the full comparative analysis of all dry yeasts here, I'll take just the short style list from the original post.
Of course, I'm talking exclusively about my personal tastes. Others' opinions may and should differ.
1. American Ale - Fermentis US-05 wins hands down. Being similar, Lalbrew BRY-97 has muddled flavour and MJ M44 makes too tart and thin beer.
2. English Ale - Lalbrew wins with Verdant IPA. Forget the "IPA" advertising gimmick, it's a classic traditional London yeast, a rare and precious top-cropping strain among the dry stock. MJ M42 Strong is the next, and Fermentis S-04 is a joke throwing loads of Lactic acid whatever I do to avoid it.
3. Belgian Ale - MJ wins with its M41, a flavourful and very versatile yeast, good both for Monastic brews and for Saisons. MJ 47 Abbey is superior to Lalbrew Abbey (more fruit, less acid), and among the proper Saison yeast there's a close tie between MJ M29 and Fermentis BE-134, which are very different but same good, while Lalbrew Belle Saison is a sure looser here.
4. All-purpose Lager - Lalbrew Diamond is three heads above Fermentis W34/70, and MJ M76 Bavarian is a close follower to Diamond. Fermentis S-23 is another underappreciaded diamond in the ruff, but it's unpopular because few seem to know where and how to use it correctly.
5. Random one you just really love - let's choose German Ale we've discussed earlier. Lalbrew Koeln is the best, MJ M54 is second to it (more pear esters), Fermentis K-97 is the last (too tart).
This list might be continued with dozens of other styles and brands. I just wanted to show that each manufacturer (or blender, in the case of MJ) has its winners in different categories. I understand however that lists like this are essentially useless. To set your own opinions and preferences, you got no other way than to test and taste each yeast yourself, not just in a single brew preferably. That's what I'm trying to do myself. Boy, on this way I have to drink a lot of beers I don't care for. But all that is for science, what can I do
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duncan_disorderly
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I agree with a lot of that although Verdant does not taste English despite its ancestry. Lallemand needs to go again and find a truer version of the 1318 strain to process. You can't make a bitter with Verdant that tastes English. It's a yeast I like though, for certain beers. I think the same applies to the Vermont strain(s), English origin but altered. I suspect Lallemand were targeting a NEIPA strain rather than a true English strain.It depends. I can't compare liquid to dry because I have no easy access to the liquid yeasts and use them very rarely but I hope I've amassed some useful experience with most of the dry strains from Fermentis, Lallemand, Mangrove Jack's and Gozdawa. It's not as simple as "Lallemand is better and Fermentis is worse than MJ". Each style category has its winners and loosers indepentently of the brand.
I won't present the full comparative analysis of all dry yeasts here, I'll take just the short style list from the original post.
Of course, I'm talking exclusively about my personal tastes. Others' opinions may and should differ.
1. American Ale - Fermentis US-05 wins hands down. Being similar, Lalbrew BRY-97 has muddled flavour and MJ M44 makes too tart and thin beer.
2. English Ale - Lalbrew wins with Verdant IPA. Forget the "IPA" advertising gimmick, it's a classic traditional London yeast, a rare and precious top-cropping strain among the dry stock. MJ M42 Strong is the next, and Fermentis S-04 is a joke throwing loads of Lactic acid whatever I do to avoid it.
3. Belgian Ale - MJ wins with its M41, a flavourful and very versatile yeast, good both for Monastic brews and for Saisons. MJ 47 Abbey is superior to Lalbrew Abbey (more fruit, less acid), and among the proper Saison yeast there's a close tie between MJ M29 and Fermentis BE-134, which are very different but same good, while Lalbrew Belle Saison is a sure looser here.
4. All-purpose Lager - Lalbrew Diamond is three heads above Fermentis W34/70, and MJ M76 Bavarian is a close follower to Diamond. Fermentis S-23 is another underappreciaded diamond in the ruff, but it's unpopular because few seem to know where and how to use it correctly.
5. Random one you just really love - let's choose German Ale we've discussed earlier. Lalbrew Koeln is the best, MJ M54 is second to it (more pear esters), Fermentis K-97 is the last (too tart).
This list might be continued with dozens of other styles and brands. I just wanted to show that each manufacturer (or blender, in the case of MJ) has its winners in different categories. I understand however that lists like this are essentially useless. To set your own opinions and preferences, you got no other way than to test and taste each yeast yourself, not just in a single brew preferably. That's what I'm trying to do myself. Boy, on this way I have to drink a lot of beers I don't care for. But all that is for science, what can I do
Like you say, we have to try everything ourselves and set our own preferences.
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I have switched almost entirely to dry yeast and never rehydrate (they get sprinkled into the fermenter during transfer and aerated). I've had great results with the following:
1. BRY-97, US-05
2. Mangrove Jack's Empire Ale M15
3. SafAle BE-134 and LalBrew Farmhouse
4. Mangrove Jack's Bavarian M76
5. Verdant IPA
BrewnWKopperKat
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With taste (peachy, sourdough), it's likely to be personal: tasting capability (super tasters); training (Cicerone , BJCP, ...); enjoying a beverage vs evaluating a beverage.
A number of years ago (IIRC, 2017-2018), there was discussion on dry yeast flavors in AHA forums. There were some interesting observations from people who re-pitched dry yeast. Given that those sachets were packaged in the 2015-2016 time frame, it would be interesting to see a fresh set of observations when using a 1st pitch and re-pitched yeast for the same recipe.
Perhaps old stereotypes and incomplete information. Yeast related off flavor stories rarely come with recipes and process notes.
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Die Schwarzbier Polizei
Did that many times with many yeasts. Different dry strains behave differently when repitched. Somewhere on this board I shared my experiences on this subject. Some just acquire a bit more estery profile, some change significantly, some almost stay the same, and with some you can't predict whether they would change or not. My general takeaway was that there were actually not so much dry yeasts suitable for harvesting and repitching. Because many of them are probably blends, and those behave unpredictably: a particular strain from the multi-strain blend may gain the lead in one batch and give way to another in a consequtive one.
BrewnWKopperKat
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IIRC, the AHA forums discussion was focused on a couple of popular Fermentis & Lallemand strains (US-05, S-04, Nottingham).
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Die Schwarzbier Polizei
In my experience, US-05 gets better with subsequent repitches and Nottingham stays largely stable just getting a bit more estery..
S-04, I have never repitched it, though I did many Generation 0 pitches of it and every batch came out outrageously acidic, so I didn't bother with harvesting it. I was told however it gradually looses its signature sourness in further generations. Haven't checked this yet. Plan to do it sometime when I have a surplus of grains and free time to sacrifice for another probable failed S-04 batch.
S-04, I have never repitched it, though I did many Generation 0 pitches of it and every batch came out outrageously acidic, so I didn't bother with harvesting it. I was told however it gradually looses its signature sourness in further generations. Haven't checked this yet. Plan to do it sometime when I have a surplus of grains and free time to sacrifice for another probable failed S-04 batch.
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You may have discussed this in another thread (haven't searched), but can you briefly explain how you use S-23? I have a couple of packs in the fridge, but most of my searches for applications have ended with user horror stories.
I’m curious as well. I’d love to hear some best practices for S-23.
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Die Schwarzbier Polizei
OK, to not to repeat myself I just quote what I've said on S-23 in one thread:
And added a bit in another:
There might be more helpful responses from more experienced Lager-brewers but that's what I think on this yeast.
And added a bit in another:
There might be more helpful responses from more experienced Lager-brewers but that's what I think on this yeast.
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Die Schwarzbier Polizei
I remember, I also read that S-23 is a good choise for Classic (pre-prohibition) American Lagers. That might be a good suggestion, taking into account the Austrian pedigree of this style. But I don't have any personal experience on this subject to share as I've never brewed an American Lager with it.
Makes me wonder if this one is actually also nice at warmer temperatures like 18c to 20 c. Possibly enhanced ester levels, but must not be a bad thing if one does not expect a clean lager. Maybe an american steam beer or maybe a tropical stout would be good with it?
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I've got an interesting one for this, K1V-1116 wine yeast. I brewed a very simple dubbel with it about 6 weeks ago. The final gravity was not quite as low as I expected but it was close (1.018) and at bottling the beer tasted a little bit sweet. I'm drinking the first of 4 plastic bottles right now (I know I'm rushing it.) The sweet taste is gone. It has a nice nose to it, ester-y but not banana; I can't describe it. My carbonation level is not as high as it should be, (that sweetness worried me so I may have backed off the priming sugar a little) but it's very enjoyable. I'll give the ones in glass a few more months to mature, then take a couple to a homebrew club meeting where there are some brewers that really know Belgians and see what they think.
Now I want to try it in a tripel, where I don't need any expensive dark sugar and can use more hops.
PLease do not tell them upfront what type of yeast it is. Just tell them it is Belgian and that you want their unbiased oppinion. And then please share the results with us!
Good point. I tend to agree that in general, I've been happier with Lallemand's products than Fermentis'. But like you mention, there are a few tasty exceptions. I myself have been happy with S-04, and also even have a good batch right now with S-23. A previous S-23 batch was not as good as my current one, glad I gave it another shot, otherwise I might be missing something... which I still think is true for many people who constantly poo-poo the S-04.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Well I think that's the thing - the average lager brewer expects lager yeast to be clean, and my impression from the warm-fermented-lager thread is that people don't like S-23 fermented warm. It seems to be a close relative of the Urquell yeast, and also of eg WLP940 so might be suitable (fermented cold) for Mexican-style lagers?
I've currently got a beer fermenting with BE-256 which is one of those that doesn't get much attention - it might be an interesting one to try for British styles.
Also T-58 is fun, it's very biotransformy (turns eg Chinook grapefruit into a more complex limey flavour) but its light phenols might be blended with Notty for a more northern English kind of yeast, although I've not tried it.
Funny, I have a strong blond fermenting right now with T-58 for the phenols and biotransformation and then BE-256 for some extra attenuation. It'll probably end up a hot mess but how else am I supposed to learn?
Red over White
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S-23 has been a great yeast under pressure for me, as well as S-189. Both do well under pressure from 58-68°F naturally building pressure to 10 psi and come out very clean. S23 gives a good balanced profile while S189 leaves it a little maltier. They have been very consistent performers, just like clockwork.
Don't give me more ideas.....
Franktalk
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Yes, I have brewed a Negra Modelo clone fermented with S-23 that was excellent. Kept it around 55 F and brought it up at the end. It was almost indistinguishable from the real thing.
S-23 will also work at around 60 for a nice California Common. It will be a bit fruity, but that is okay in a steam beer.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Well if you're aiming for a Guinness style you want something with decent attenuation, so the likes of Windsor, S-33 and Lallemand London are not what you want.
You're looking more like Nottingham, or a Notty/Windsor blend, or as a left-field choice BE-256 which is British in origin, I've got my first beer with it crashing at the moment.
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