This is my dream...

Williams 728
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Wow, I typed a lot in this thread today and cannot continue or my white-collar job may be down the tube, haha.

Anyway, to summarize I say if its not broke, don't fix it... I've been to and immensely enjoyed many brewpubs. The ones I enjoy the most (and maybe its just a product of my environment) have a higher-class feel/atmosphere, but still casual enough (and affordable enough) for the blue-collar person on the weekend. I've gone there for work lunches in a suit and tie and not even had a beer. Then again I've gone on the weekends in jeans and a normal casual shirt and enjoyed my fair share of pints. Noone looked at me funny either time; I sat among many-a rauckus college students and/or blue collar folk, as well as children and even the elderly and everyone seemed to have a great time. I think you need to aim there even if it seems like "following the leader" as far as their brewpub 'methodology' goes.

I can almost guarentee one thing. Very few people (some of us might!) want to drink some unknown beers at a hole-in-the-wall type place [i.e. crappy atmosphere]. You need a good atmosphere for all ages [this is the least limiting factor though] and [more importantly] lifestyles.
 
EdWort said:
Some day, I'm going to open a brew pub and serve fine brews with fantastic German food and BBQ. I've got backers too.
Click to expand...
This thread got me thinking again...and we all know how dangerous that can be...

I never before considered opening any sort of restaurant, pub, diner, bar, etc until I started brewing. However, "I've got backers," too. Many of my friends ask me, "Wow, are you going to go into business with your brewing?" More than several seem to think it's possible and would be willing to invest (some even have quite a nest egg...). While I know it's bad practice to go into business with your friends' money, it does spark a bit of interest in pursuing a dream like Dude's...

Great discussion...keep it up!

Oh, and I'd avoid the $48,000 monster (it's so beautiful...) and try to find something along the lines of Monster Mash's pool filter rig instead.

EDIT:
Slightly :off: :
Something I think I'd personally have more success with is a homebrew supply shop. I'd need a good location (modern suburbia, perhaps) - the small town I'm currently in just wouldn't sustain a good HBS (as evidenced by my LHBS). I think it'd be great to have a dedicated HBS with a decent selection, fast special order capability, and a knowledgeable staff. Given my affinity for gadgets, I think I could probably do well with custom built brew equipment as well. A once a month (or week) in-store brew day for curious on-lookers and serious brewers alike would be awesome. Free samples on tap would ceraintly be in order. Then again...a brew pub/HBS anyone?
 
Dude said:
I totally disagree. I'd cater specifically to that group.
Click to expand...

Well, it's your money, but I think I'd do some SERIOUS research into what types of people are attracted to micros and what types are completely turned off by them. It may be different depending on geography, but every blue-collar job I've had in my life had pretty much the same types of personalities. ...and most of those weren't brew pub guys.

So, I guess I'll respectfully disagree, but I wish ya luck
 
I feel that if you open a business and from the start you alienate a portion of the population, in this case the BMC crowd, you already put yourself at a disadvantage when so many small businesses already fail in the first year. Maybe you could find a local swill besides BMC to have on tap, maybe something like Old Style (or are they already owned by BMC?)
 
Just a quick thought as far as the blue collar crowd goes; I live in RI which is a fairly blue collar state, and we have several thriving brewpubs and beer bars, some more blue collar than others. I don't see anything wrong with trying to cater to that crowd; if you make a good product and charge a reasonable price, people will come, maybe not everyday, but they will come. The thing to be careful of is alienating other beer loving clientele as they will miss out on your beer if they feel uncomfortable, and isn't is really all about the beer?
 
todd_k said:
I feel that if you open a business and from the start you alienate a portion of the population, in this case the BMC crowd, you already put yourself at a disadvantage when so many small businesses already fail in the first year. Maybe you could find a local swill besides BMC to have on tap, maybe something like Old Style (or are they already owned by BMC?)
Click to expand...
My experience with brewpubs is that they usually only serve their own brew and the ones I know of are quite successful. However most also seem to have a fully stocked bar and a selection of wines for the non beer drinkers. Just keep a lite pale beer on tap and most of the BMC crowd that would enter a brewpub will be satisfied. I think serving a competitor's beer in a brewpub dilutes what makes a brewpub unique. If your serving BMC your just another bar/restaurant and there are plenty of those.
Now it may depend some on your market. A small town may have room for another bar that has a house beer but a metro area has too many choices so you have to offer something different to get the attention.
Craig
 
CBBaron said:
My experience with brewpubs is that they usually only serve their own brew and the ones I know of are quite successful. However most also seem to have a fully stocked bar and a selection of wines for the non beer drinkers. Just keep a lite pale beer on tap and most of the BMC crowd that would enter a brewpub will be satisfied. I think serving a competitor's beer in a brewpub dilutes what makes a brewpub unique. If your serving BMC your just another bar/restaurant and there are plenty of those.
Now it may depend some on your market. A small town may have room for another bar that has a house beer but a metro area has too many choices so you have to offer something different to get the attention.
Craig
Click to expand...

icon_clap1.gif


Well said my friend. My thoughts exactly.
 
todd_k said:
I feel that if you open a business and from the start you alienate a portion of the population, in this case the BMC crowd, you already put yourself at a disadvantage when so many small businesses already fail in the first year. Maybe you could find a local swill besides BMC to have on tap, maybe something like Old Style (or are they already owned by BMC?)
Click to expand...

Did you ever consider that so many businesses fail in the first year simply because they target the wrong market or try to target too much of a market? What is targetting the BMC crowd going to do?! You won't make a dime off selling BMC second-hand. They won't drink a local, similar beer (like Old Style or whatever; thats a micro to them). Personally, I think all they'll do is "scare" off the people who ARE going to buy your home/microbrewed beers. I'm a big-time brewpub fan and customer. I visit the locals all the time and visit anyone I can find while travelling. The reason I like them? I get to drink with beer enthusiasts. I'd rather not drink with, "real men drink Bud" types...

There is a reason why a certain type of persons frequents a brewpub and a certain type of person rejects it (price, atmosphere, lifestyle, whatever combination it may be...), however targetting them all may, more than likely, lead to the failure you are talking about avoiding.

The BMC crowd will come in to check out this "pub" either way. Some, with good taste and class, will stay. The others will leave and it's probably a good thing...
 
CBBaron said:
The problem I see is that most of this crowd tend to drink pretty heavily when they drink and are price sensitive. That is a big reason that many people stick with BMC. If you can make a good product that is price competitive with BMC at a blue collar bar then you main gain a market through word of mouth.
Cleveland is a very blue collar city but the customers at the local brewpubs appear to be predominately white collar.
However a good brew pub with that atmosphere is likely to attract a good customer base even if many are office workers.
Craig
Click to expand...

I think that's the crux of the issue right there. People who drink BMC often do so because it is a) really cheap and b) watered down enough that they can drink a lot of it and get themselves drunk.
 
The brew pubs in my area only sell their brew and like CBBaron's experience, they also have a stocked bar. There are doing well in Austin.

It's all about craft beer and the market that can appreciate and afford it IMHO.
 
Other times, an idiot...

Whenever I'm out drinking, I crave diner food. How 'bout a brewpub that, after 1:00 AM or so, started serving breakfast? ;)
 
Yuri_Rage said:
Oh, and I'd avoid the $48,000 monster (it's so beautiful...) and try to find something along the lines of Monster Mash's pool filter rig instead.
Click to expand...

Something that is REALLY important to me in all of this is a "pretty" brewery. I think you have to have copper. Period. It not only is historic in brewing, but shiny copper is just beautiful. I'm firm on that. :D

It is imperitive that in any brewpub I own--I want a completely glassed in brewery so you can see it from the brewpub. I want to be able to be brewing and have some little puppy dog looking dude (just like me) staring inside that brewery interested as hell. I want to be able (as the brewer) to motion for him to come back into the brewery and take it all in--sights, sounds, smells. I want to be able to give him a sample of a latest beer right from the fermenter.

You'd have a customer for life, I guarantee it.
 
the_bird said:
Other times, an idiot...

Whenever I'm out drinking, I crave diner food. How 'bout a brewpub that, after 1:00 AM or so, started serving breakfast? ;)
Click to expand...

Like eggs, home fries, sausage & bacon? Perhaps a waffle with strawberrys & whipped cream?

OK, how bouta beer pairing here....:D
 
the_bird said:
Other times, an idiot...

Whenever I'm out drinking, I crave diner food. How 'bout a brewpub that, after 1:00 AM or so, started serving breakfast? ;)
Click to expand...


OMG!! I'd never leave such a place!

"I'll have another pitcher of SOS and a bridge of flopped hen-fruit, a crowd of zeppelins - painted red, and dough well done with cow to cover."
 
Dude said:
Something that is REALLY important to me in all of this is a "pretty" brewery. I think you have to have copper. Period. It not only is historic in brewing, but shiny copper is just beautiful. I'm firm on that.
Click to expand...
I concede. Have fun keeping it shiny. :D
 
I know first hand that there are people who do not go to Legend in Richmond, VA because they don't have some mainstream beer. I know it must be hard to believe that some people don't like micro but they really do exist! Bottom line is it's the owner's call but you can't believe that you won't lose ANY business due to that choice. People who like micro/craft beers will go to bars that sell also sell BMC but I'm not sure the opposite is true.

I honestly don't know what I would do, I can see both sides to the argument. I sure as hell wouldn't want any Bud sold in my place but you can't make your beer if you can't pay your bills!
 
todd_k said:
I know first hand that there are people who do not go to Legend in Richmond, VA because they don't have some mainstream beer. I know it must be hard to believe that some people don't like micro but they really do exist! Bottom line is it's the owner's call but you can't believe that you won't lose ANY business due to that choice. People who like micro/craft beers will go to bars that sell also sell BMC but I'm not sure the opposite is true.
Click to expand...
Which is why the food needs to come first - people who like BMC will come for the food, and they just may try one of the Blonde Ales. People who like micros will come for the whole experience.
 
Yuri_Rage said:
Which is why the food needs to come first - people who like BMC will come for the food, and they just may try one of the Blonde Ales. People who like micros will come for the whole experience.
Click to expand...

Legend sells food too but that doesn't keep the BMC crowd happy. I know what you mean but there are plenty of bar and grills places around with decent/good food.
 
todd_k said:
Legend sells food too but that doesn't keep the BMC crowd happy. I know what you mean but there are plenty of bar and grills places around with decent/good food.
Click to expand...
But do they have REALLY good food? I mean the kind of food people are talking about for a week after they've had it? THAT'S the caliber place you need.
 
I agree with todd_k's post above. Let me give another angle, kind of the one I'm getting at...


Beer Menu:

House Pale Lager $3.00
House Stout $3.00
House ESB $3.00
Budweiser $5.00
(comes with a complimentary sample of our Pale Lager for comparison!)

and so on...


I'm saying you should have those beers to cover the one stubburn ahole in a large group who flat out will not try anything new.

In my mind, it's not about catering to the beer-swilling masses- I don't care if Budweiser lovers hate my place. HOWEVER, if there's a group of ten people who want to go for a bite to eat, I don't want old Uncle Henry refusing to go because he can't get a Budweiser there. That's not one lost customer, that's TEN lost customers. The solo customer, seeing that a Budweiser is $5 will not order one (or else he won't be back). But uncle Henry, in the company of 9 other people will order his Bud. He may ***** about it, but he'll order it and he'll drink it and there will be 9 other people who might come back to your restaurant. And who knows? Maybe uncle Henry will try your free sample and like it!

.... and that would be 10 more customers tjat you wouldn't otherwise have had.
 
Yuri_Rage said:
But do they have REALLY good food? I mean the kind of food people are talking about for a week after they've had it? THAT'S the caliber place you need.
Click to expand...

But what are the odds you'll have that kind of food? You can have good food that most people like but I don't know many places, especially bar and grills, that have great food. You almost have to be lucky to have great food, unless you have a specialty like BBQ, wings, pizza, etc.

Sorry if it seems like I'm trying to rain on your parade, Dude! It's a debate that I can see the merits of both sides and again, I don't know what choice I would make if it were me. My heart says one thing but my brain is saying something else.... ("shut up brain or I'll stab you with a Q-tip!")
 
todd_k said:
But what are the odds you'll have that kind of food?
Click to expand...
I'm not talking about playing the odds...you have to KNOW that your menu absolutely kicks ass. The little guy doesn't survive without being a cut above. That goes for food, beer, and just about everything else. I'm not trying to say that Dude's dream is an easy one to fulfill...simply that it's possible with the effort put in the right places.
 
olllllo said:
Bud would never you get away with that.
Click to expand...

I agree. There's a brewpub chain around here called Hops. They're more of a TGI Friday's that makes beer. The foods not that great but the beer is good. They sell they're own beer cheaper than BMC but not $2 cheaper... I don't think a distributor would waste their time if you did that.
 
The best places IMO are where you find an eclectic crowd.

It's the type of place that the cubicle drone can find himself going home with the goth chick.

Service is what it's all about. There is a world of difference in getting your food hot and fresh vs. sitting under a lamp. I mean burn your mouth hot.
 
It's kind of a pointless debate, since I would wager that if you looked at the most successful brewpubs, it's a combination of factors even above and beyond the quality of the beer and the quality of the food that weighs most heavily in their success.

One thing that you WILL have to keep in mind is that you need enough capital so that if business starts out slow, you don't run out of money. That's the major downside to the sexy copper; if you've got $20k more invested in brew equipment than you NEED to have invested because it looks good, that's $20k of capital you don't have to sustain the operation if business starts out slow (like it usually does).

In any case, though, what a great dream; we're debating it so much because I think we've all spent far too much time dreaming about it ourselves!
 
You want ecclectic??!!!!

I just had this thought today....


Why not buy an old train car and turn it into a brewpub. Just keep it open one day a week and sell growlers out the side window on a walkup basis.

Either that, or else... ever see the painting... I think it's called... ummm... "Nighthawks". It's a greasy spoon diner with a long bar, everybody sits facing away from the windows, but the windows are huge so everyone can see what's going on inside. Make a brewpub like that. It takes minimal real estate and if you're only open one day a week, you'll be packed when you're open. People see a packed place, they want to go there. Then go to two days a week. Then three if/when you can support it.

This keeps your rent low (small space). It keeps your staffing cost low (minimal days open). If your beers are really good and you can service walk ins looking to take a growler home, you could clean up on that basis.



It's not exactly what Dude is talking about, but it's a different business model..
 
Im not sure how it is where you guys are....


But in AZ a class 6 License goes for ~$125k here in town. Now thats unlimited alcohol sales as long as you sell food. You can sell alcohol to go as well.

Now a class 3 license allows you to produce and sell up to 200k gallons of your own product. No other liquor or beer from a distributor (not sure if it requires you to serve food or not) . And this license is only $500 bucks.

just a little bit of FYI
 
Chimone said:
Im not sure how it is where you guys are....


But in AZ a class 6 License goes for ~$125k here in town. Now thats unlimited alcohol sales as long as you sell food. You can sell alcohol to go as well.

Now a class 3 license allows you to produce and sell up to 200k gallons of your own product. No other liquor or beer from a distributor (not sure if it requires you to serve food or not) . And this license is only $500 bucks.

just a little bit of FYI
Click to expand...

There ya go. That makes the decision a little easier...not that I was wavering in the least, but.... :D
 
My former brewing partner AKA guzzleboy, wanted to have a brewpub in between a pizzeria and a sausage shop, with take-in agreements (and kick-backs).

The best brewpubs around here are joint efforts between a brewer and a chief or something like Golden Valley, where someone owns both, but has professionals running each side. GVB's food gimmick is the Angus beef raised by the owners on their farm, but the seafood is amazing.

After 6 years, I'm about three months short of having product to sell, so dream your Dream!
 
I'd consider giving a left nut for a way less expensive version of the brewing sculpture. I'd like an all-grain systems set up for 5-gallon batches..... Dream over, back to reality.

Good Luck Dude, Someday I look forward to ordering a beer at your counter.
 
A stone oven pizza joint is about as easy as it gets. Great beer, great pizza, and LCD flat panels sticking out from every possible place you could put them with a different game on each one.


then you win @ life
 
todd_k said:
People who like micro/craft beers will go to bars that sell also sell BMC but I'm not sure the opposite is true.
Click to expand...

Personally I will go to a bar with only BMC, only if I am dragged there...

I'm sure its the same for BMC fans to a microbrewery.

I just don't think you TRY to cater to this audience by serving BMC. Yes, you probably WILL lose SOME business, but you may also lose some other business if you serve BMC (the beer enthusiast who doesn't want to drink with BMC-types).
 
Toot said:
I agree with todd_k's post above. Let me give another angle, kind of the one I'm getting at...


Beer Menu:

House Pale Lager $3.00
House Stout $3.00
House ESB $3.00
Budweiser $5.00
(comes with a complimentary sample of our Pale Lager for comparison!)

and so on...


I'm saying you should have those beers to cover the one stubburn ahole in a large group who flat out will not try anything new.

In my mind, it's not about catering to the beer-swilling masses- I don't care if Budweiser lovers hate my place. HOWEVER, if there's a group of ten people who want to go for a bite to eat, I don't want old Uncle Henry refusing to go because he can't get a Budweiser there. That's not one lost customer, that's TEN lost customers. The solo customer, seeing that a Budweiser is $5 will not order one (or else he won't be back). But uncle Henry, in the company of 9 other people will order his Bud. He may ***** about it, but he'll order it and he'll drink it and there will be 9 other people who might come back to your restaurant. And who knows? Maybe uncle Henry will try your free sample and like it!

.... and that would be 10 more customers tjat you wouldn't otherwise have had.
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think Uncle Henry would buy the Bud for $5. Instead he would order a coke for $1, eat his meal while beeching abou the expensive Bud, and never come back. His family will still come back, just without him... One lost customer. The kind you don't want to begin with...
 
Chimone said:
Im not sure how it is where you guys are....


But in AZ a class 6 License goes for ~$125k here in town. Now thats unlimited alcohol sales as long as you sell food. You can sell alcohol to go as well.

Now a class 3 license allows you to produce and sell up to 200k gallons of your own product. No other liquor or beer from a distributor (not sure if it requires you to serve food or not) . And this license is only $500 bucks.

just a little bit of FYI
Click to expand...

Yeah, that definitely makes it easier... Maybe once you are rolling in the dough from your micro-brewed dream coming true, then you upgrade to the Class 6 and sell mixed drinks for the ladies... :ban:
 
rdwj said:
Honestly, that's got to be the smallest sub-set of beer drinkers possible
Click to expand...


Yeah. Those are beer SNOBS, not beer enthusiasts. Beer enthusiasts say, "
What??!!! They have a new kind of beer??!!!! LET'S GO!!!!!" Doesn't matter if he a satanist and the brewery is atop a large montain and the beer being brewed by religious monks, a real beer drinker will get to the top for a sample....
 

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