This doesn't make sense to me

[rain164845]

But I am sure there is a piece of info that I am missing. If you need a yeast started to insure sufficient yeast pitched into the wort, and your wort is at 70 degrees when you pitch, then what is the difference in doing that and making a starter with wort and keeping it at 70 degrees and pitching the starter? Isn't the fermentation bucket essentially doing the same thing?

Joe

 

[snowveil]

A starter is desinged to increase the amount of yeast cells that are active to be put into a beer to ferment. Just as when you've finished fermenting a 5 gallon batch of beer there is a huge "cake" of yeast on the bottom of your fermentation vessel, a starter also builds up a small amount of yeast to a more desirable level.

Underpitching, or adding too few yeast cells, will stress the yeast too much and will result in off-flavors. Creating a starter helps to ensure a healthy fermentation with as little stress to the yeast as possible.

 

[IrregularPulse]

It a matter of cell count/wort volume ratio. The amount of yeast in a packet or vial is enough to work on the amount of wort in a starter without stressing it out. Throw that same little amount into a 5G volume and now the same amount of yeast have a lot more work to do wich stresses it out.

 

[rain164845]

I suppose I don't understand why adding more food would stress it, maybe just take longer to do the same thing, but isn't the fermenter essentially a big starter?

 

[IrregularPulse]

The same reason you get more stressed out when you have more work to do. There's more than just eating food. Before that ever starts they use the oxygen to reproduce themselves to an adequate level for the volume. The more they have to do this, the more stressed they are from the "work". After reproducing, they then go to work breaking down the sugar chains. Check out HOW-TO-BREW online by John Palmer, there is a good section that explains what exactly the yeast are doing. It's not quite as simple and sitting down to the table and eating their meal so to speak

 

[azscoob]

The more yeast that you pitch initially reduces the amount of cell reproduction needed to ferment the wort. think of it like this..if the yeasties are sexing it up in your wort before fermenting it, all that sweaty reproduction business results in off flavors, sure they mostly clean up after themselves, but the less cleanup needed the better tasting the beer will be in the end. Does that make any sense? who wants sweaty beer? Let them get sweaty in the starter first then toss em into the wort buffet

 

[rain164845]

The more yeast that you pitch initially reduces the amount of cell reproduction needed to ferment the wort. think of it like this..if the yeasties are sexing it up in your wort before fermenting it, all that sweaty reproduction business results in off flavors, sure they mostly clean up after themselves, but the less cleanup needed the better tasting the beer will be in the end. Does that make any sense? who wants sweaty beer? Let them get sweaty in the starter first then toss em into the wort buffet

That explanation makes sense. So the byproducts of reproduction are bad? Or replication however it may be. But we are still dumping the whole starter in along with all the byproducts right? So I guess it doesn't make sense either.

I'm not trying to start an argument, just trying to make my beer better.

Joe

 

[a10t2]

So the byproducts of reproduction are bad?

Neither good nor bad, just flavor-active. A beer with no yeast character wouldn't taste right, but neither does a beer with too much yeast character. Of course, how much is too much depends on the style and even on your personal preferences. The bottom line is that without knowing (roughly) how much yeast results in a particular flavor profile, that flavor profile can't be replicated, or adjusted if needed.

But we are still dumping the whole starter in along with all the byproducts right?

Maybe, maybe not. I think most home brewers like to cold crash the starter a day or two before pitching, so that most of the liquid can be discarded. Either way, as was said earlier, the higher pitching rate in a starter results in less reproduction, and less flavor development.

 

[azscoob]

my process is as follows:
make a starter on my stirplate.
let starter ferment out (couple of days).
cold crash in fridge overnight.
decant off clear oxydized beer.
pitch slurry remaining once it comes up to pitching temp.

I have never pitched the whole starter flask, I tasted the clear beer on top of my first starter and it was nasty, so I decanted it off, and have done so ever since.

 

[Tom]

I suppose I don't understand why adding more food would stress it, maybe just take longer to do the same thing, but isn't the fermenter essentially a big starter?

And this is another problem. If the yeast take too long to take over, other bugs can join in.
And the yeast can only grow so much. One pack of yeast just isn't enough to fement out a strong beer like a barleywine or doppelbock.

 

[jackson_d]

But I am sure there is a piece of info that I am missing. If you need a yeast started to insure sufficient yeast pitched into the wort, and your wort is at 70 degrees when you pitch, then what is the difference in doing that and making a starter with wort and keeping it at 70 degrees and pitching the starter? Isn't the fermentation bucket essentially doing the same thing?

dude you are just doubling or tripling the amount of yeast before you pitch it into the wort. just to make sure there are plenty to get the job done quickly. thats really all it is. off flavors and all that too, etc., but essentially you are just making more yeast at home without having to purchase two packets.. and it does make a major difference.

 

[rain164845]

cool, thanks for the ideas.

Joe