Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

[Brewskii]

If I had to pick one thing I think it could be, I'd say its poissibly under pitched. WLP 530 is a true top cropping yeast and as such, if your starter blows off heavily (as mine did) I think you lose far more yeast than you may realize. I think the same thing may happen to people who ferment this beer with very little headspace in the fermentor... While you think all the soldiers are in the heat of battle, the majority are going AWOL out the blow-off before the hard work is done.

That's just a guess though...

 

[sweetcell]

I'm thinking I may go the re-pitch route with a decanted 2-2.5L starter.

if your beer is already partially fermented, you want to pitch an active starter not a crashed one. pitch it at high krausen when the yeast are already in sugar-munching mode. flocculated dormant yeast aren't going to activate in a low pH & alcoholic environment.

 

[Brewskii]

Good point. Hmm... Gonna have to think about how to do that and minimize the amount of starter beer added to the fermentor and still get a yeast population that can helpme....

Maybe ferment a 2L starter in a 2000ml flask and route the blow off to a holding jar and then pitch the resultant overflowed yeast to the fermentor as son as it's done blowing off?

...hmmm.

 

[Layne]

If I had to pick one thing I think it could be, I'd say its poissibly under pitched. WLP 530 is a true top cropping yeast and as such, if your starter blows off heavily (as mine did) I think you lose far more yeast than you may realize. I think the same thing may happen to people who ferment this beer with very little headspace in the fermentor... While you think all the soldiers are in the heat of battle, the majority are going AWOL out the blow-off before the hard work is done.

That's just a guess though...

This is very interesting.

 

[sweetcell]

Good point. Hmm... Gonna have to think about how to do that and minimize the amount of starter beer added to the fermentor and still get a yeast population that can helpme....

Maybe ferment a 2L starter in a 2000ml flask and route the blow off to a holding jar and then pitch the resultant overflowed yeast to the fermentor as son as it's done blowing off?

...hmmm.

you don't have to make a 2 L starter. you just want to get the yeast active, population growth isn't as important. most of your fermentation is already done, isn't it? you just need a few active hardy cells to get the job done.

1 L in a 5.5 Gal batch = 5% of the volume, which shouldn't be noticeable.

blowoff idea is an interesting one, but i don't think you'll get that much blowoff... most of the yeast will remain in the starter. i could be wrong about that.

 

[PJoyce85]

If I had to pick one thing I think it could be, I'd say its poissibly under pitched. WLP 530 is a true top cropping yeast and as such, if your starter blows off heavily (as mine did) I think you lose far more yeast than you may realize. I think the same thing may happen to people who ferment this beer with very little headspace in the fermentor... While you think all the soldiers are in the heat of battle, the majority are going AWOL out the blow-off before the hard work is done.

That's just a guess though...

That's interesting.

I wonder how much yeast is lost to blow off. You would have to really lose a lot to under pitch enough to get stuck (so I would think) because the recipe calls for a slight under pitch

 

[sweetcell]

You would have to really lose a lot to under pitch enough to get stuck (so I would think) because the recipe calls for a slight under pitch

if you're underpitching per the recipe, and then you lose some of that yeast so that you're now way under-pitched... getting stuck doesn't seem like an unlikely outcome. there is nothing magical about this recipe that allows it to support being under-pitched. by pitching low we're taking a chance on having probs, in return for flavors associated with a lot of cell growth. when unforeseen events like massive blow-off occurs, we lose that gamble.

 

[Brewskii]

.



blowoff idea is an interesting one, but i don't think you'll get that much blowoff... most of the yeast will remain in the starter. i could be wrong about that.

I think that your theory is correct about most strains of yeast. I think that in most circumstances there is not much yeast in the krausen.

My theory hinges on my beliefs that this strain is different in that it's a true top cropping yeast and that a large portion of the active yeast is in the krausen.

 

[FredTheNuke]

except for top cropped types.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Overshooting the OG is the worst. Under-pitching should be in increments starting with the full pitch. We walked it down by 5% increments over a few batches to get it right. Right now for an OG of 1.090 we pitch a very healthy 270 Billion. If the OG is higher then the pitch has to compensate.

If repitching to a stuck fermentation, the lack of oxygen, depleted nutrients, and high ABV, make a small repitch languish. At 1.020 a big starter is required to go a very short distance. It's a lot of effort but the Jamil method does work...300 billion. Rack it off, (again if necessary), at 1.013.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Westmalle is a top cropper. In a big Belgian we like to give Westmalle plenty of fermenter head room, (30%). Not uncommon to lose 80 billion or more from a tight fermenter in blow-off.

 

[meadowstream]

if you're underpitching per the recipe, and then you lose some of that yeast so that you're now way under-pitched... getting stuck doesn't seem like an unlikely outcome. there is nothing magical about this recipe that allows it to support being under-pitched. by pitching low we're taking a chance on having probs, in return for flavors associated with a lot of cell growth. when unforeseen events like massive blow-off occurs, we lose that gamble.

I think that if you oxygenate your beer and experience the usual lag time and then get propagation and activity that results in substantial blow-off...that is a pretty good problem! FWIW, I think that if you came close to adequate cell counts then everything is OK!

 

[Brewskii]

I think that if you oxygenate your beer and experience the usual lag time and then get propagation and activity that results in substantial blow-off...that is a pretty good problem! FWIW, I think that if you came close to adequate cell counts then everything is OK!

If it's my beer were talking about; I intended to over pitch - significantly. 1 vial fresh yeast in a 2.5 liter 1.040 starter should yield more than 375 Billion cells according to BeerSmith.
Missed my OG to be sure (1.100 SG) -that's certain as I took more readings today and back calculated my refract reading (14.4 brix) with my very accurate 1-10% spindle(8.2% or 1.033SG) and it backs into exactly 1.100 OG.
The numbers are not changing from a couple days ago and it may be a health issue so I'll order another vial and try the Jamil technique.
My starter blew off hard enough that I remember wiping thick yeast from the bottle and thinking it was as much as in the bottom of a vial of fresh so let's say I lost 100 billion out the 'blow hole'... That's still upwards of 275 billion in 5.5 gallons of 1.100 wort. It's a little anemic and probably why I'm where I'm at now - that's my theory.
Just thought if share my experience and why I thought so many people including myself have had an issue with the 70% attenuation stall.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

We use a 2.7 Liter starter for 1.090 OG...no blowoff.

 

[Brewskii]

Not sure about BeerSmith calc. 375 Billion for 2.5 Liter 10P leaves a question mark. Troester would calc the yeast count (depending on cell size) of a 10P 2.5 liter starter at 240-250 Billion. Zainasheff/White would have calculated it around 230-240 billion. Palmer wold calculate it closer to Zainasheff. A 2.5 Liter starter would be OK for 1.090. With blowoff and a higher OG it sounds like it would have a difficult time finishing.

Something doesn't add up because I'm looking right at it and it's showing 2.5L stirplate starter using 1vial w/ 96% viability (96 billion) = 448.3 billion ...that does sound kinda high. I have never touched the settings as far as I know and I've the latest version.

Great...another research project!

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Something doesn't add up because I'm looking right at it and it's showing 2.5L stirplate starter using 1vial w/ 96% viability (96 billion) = 448.3 billion ...that does sound kinda high. I have never touched the settings as far as I know and I've the latest version.

Great...another research project!

I agree. That calc definitely does not look right. A yeast count that high would consume through 1.090 / 5 gallons in very short order. Let me dig up my research and post what I have.

 

[Gixxer]

Planning another batch of this delicious beer in a few weeks... I am not worried about blow off, throwing the 4gl batch in the keggle to start things off. Plenty of headspace.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Here's what we're getting from the online yeast calcs with the following variables:

Starter Gravity: 1.040 (10P)
Starter: Size: 2.5L (2500ml)
Method: Stir Plate
Innoculation rate: 100 billion
Viability: 97%

Mr Malty Results - 305 billion
Brewers Friend - 306 Billion
YeastCalc - 330 Billion

My personal opinion is that these are *ideal* results. Three years back we started with a 2200 ml starter and with coaxing hit FG after some work on time & temp. We then increased the starter to 2400ml and saw some improvement with good ester development. With a 2700 ml starter we saw FG reached within 6-8 days with subtle ester development nearly identical to the Westy import. Since we're after a BLAM-like method and timeline we wanted to try and get as close as possible to every aspect including ferm duration. I think the real count of a 2.7 Liter starter is probably closer to 280 billion and may be due to less viability of vials than is projected. When we can do our own ml pipettes and yeast plate counting then we can be more confident. Until then this is just a guess.

With 1.090 a 2.5 liter starter should work but may take 10-14 days to get there.

 

[Brewskii]

Woah...thanks for the info CSI. I'll start another thread on the BS stuff when/of I figure out why the starter info so jacked up.
Though it is stuck, and I'll re-pitch, I must say that even at this early stage it is remarkable how clean and flavorful this is. It's a remarkable recipe. Many thanks for the legwork on the starter info!

 

[Brewskii]

Seems strangely familiar...
Nobodies gettin' away this time!

 

[wobrien]

Seems strangely familiar...View attachment 172276
Nobodies gettin' away this time!

Does that jug have a flat bottom? I assume it does since it's on a stir plate. Where's you find that?

 

[ultravista]

CSI - to clarify, you recommend a 2.7L starter for the five gallon batch?

 

[Brewskii]

Does that jug have a flat bottom? I assume it does since it's on a stir plate. Where's you find that?

Not particularly; I it's a little tricky to get it going but once you do it works well.

 

[wobrien]

Not particularly; I View attachment 172301it's a little tricky to get it going but once you do it works well.

Thanks. I've always assumed that a jug like that wouldn't work, but you know what they say about assumptions.

 

[Brewskii]

Thanks. I've always assumed that a jug like that wouldn't work, but you know what they say about assumptions.

Yeah, it's not ideal for a couple reasons, it's not easy to get going on the stir plate and you can't thermally shock it when you cool It down or fill it with hot wort like you can with borosilicate glass, but as long as your careful, it works just fine

 

[wobrien]

As long as it spins it works for me. I can my starter wort

 

[DSmith]

I use the same 1 gallon jugs on a DIY stirplate with (2) 20# magnets (http://www.grainger.com/product/Disc-Magnet-2VAF2) and a 24V fan. the jugs are fragile and I've broken one while cleaning, but a lot cheaper than flask. The jug seems to work best using a large stirbar with a center ring to reduce friction/noise on the round bottom of the jug.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Seems strangely familiar...View attachment 172276
Nobodies gettin' away this time!

Sweet!

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

I use the same 1 gallon jugs on a DIY stirplate with (2) 20# magnets (http://www.grainger.com/product/Disc-Magnet-2VAF2) and a 24V fan. the jugs are fragile and I've broken one while cleaning, but a lot cheaper than flask. The jug seems to work best using a large stirbar with a center ring to reduce friction/noise on the round bottom of the jug.

View attachment 172308
View attachment 172309
View attachment 172310

Now that is a starter!

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

CSI - to clarify, you recommend a 2.7L starter for the five gallon batch?

Yes. That's what we use now. (But) one of the subjective things we run into is starter equipment/method. Although we use Erlenmeyer flasks (4000ml), not everybody does. We use a 2" stirbar and Fisher Scientific stir plate. We also oxygenate our starters 2x's and keep this strain at a steady 72F during culture. This may not add up to much, but every little detail we viewed as important in creating the routine.

I removed starter size from our pitch rate doc to keep it basic with the George Fix rates (with an under-pitch column). Once we got our equipment in line with the ferm duration we stayed on with 2700 ml. It seems to be working out very well.

 

[hawgwild81]

I haven't read all 80 pages so this may have been covered, but has anyone successfully adapted this recipe to BIAB?

 

[Brewskii]

HUZZAH!
Re-pitched with 2.5 L stir plate starter at high krausen and it took off fermenting heavily for another 4 days or so. The result is another 10 points gravity. Only difference was I used WLP550 for the re-pitch because they were out of Abby at the LHBS

OG=1.100

After Primary ferm=1.030 or 70% attenuation

Re-pitch after 7 days=1.019 or 81% attenuation

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

View attachment 174008
HUZZAH!
Re-pitched with 2.5 L stir plate starter at high krausen and it took off fermenting heavily for another 4 days or so. The result is another 10 points gravity. Only difference was I used WLP550 for the re-pitch because they were out of Abby at the LHBS

OG=1.100

After Primary ferm=1.030 or 70% attenuation

Re-pitch after 7 days=1.019 or 81% attenuation

I suspect that gravity will continue to drop slowly even more so over the next 2-3 weeks.

 

[sweetcell]

I suspect that gravity will continue to drop slowly even more so over the next 2-3 weeks.

it might, or it might not. the brew is already at almost 11% abv. not exactly an ideally hospitable environment where yeast can leisurely keep chugging along at a slow pace...

 

[Brewskii]

it might, or it might not. the brew is already at almost 11% abv. not exactly an ideally hospitable environment where yeast can leisurely keep chugging along at a slow pace...

I think CSI is going to be correct on this one because it still is showing signs of light activity. Alcohol toxicity won't be an issue with wlp550, but a slow chipping away of the last few gravity points in this case could be and probably has a lot to do with the alcohol at this point.

I'll post the results

 

[Brewskii]

Moved to secondary today
She's down to 1.017
It's strong to be sure... A little over 11%abv at this point but I can tell it is by far the best Belgian I've made. Well worth the effort.

 

[psubrewer]

Brewskii, have you checked your refractometer readings with a hydrometer? My experience has shown that the refractometer readings are not quite as accurate post fermentation with this much fermentables, even when taking into account og. Anyway nice job!

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[Brewskii]

Actually I have. I'm really lucky to have a lab calibrated 0-10 balling spindle with temperature compensation and I have very little difference with my calculated refractometer post fermentation numbers. Still, I use only my refractometer because of the speed and ease of use. I find that as long as I stick with the same instrument I've not had to question my readings. Those actual numbers don't mean anything to anyone but me so as long as I'm consistent, the trends tell the story.
That said, I'm certain these numbers are true enough :^)

 

[psubrewer]

Sounds like you are confident in your numbers. You're really close to expected fg given that you started at 1.100.

I've made this twice, both times with generous headspace in the fermenter and had no problems hitting 1.012. I think there may be some truth to losing too much of the healthy yeast population through the blowoff to support fermentation.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[Brewskii]

BTW... Thanks to all for the help. Sweetcell convinced me to pitch the 2nd at high krausen and I'm glad I did. CSI (as usual) for the info. Thanks HBTr's. That's what's great about this place!