CSI - CandiSyrup
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duhall this talk of lagering times got me confused.
No problem, brewing is just good fun
Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple
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el_caro
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Yes that is what i will do. I intend to pick up some red star champagne yeast which is good to 17%ABV. I will just inject some rehydrated yeast into a couple of bottles using a syringe and give it a month. If it works I will do em all. Given I primed with 8gms/litre first time I will not add any dextrose with the test run.
rockdemon
Well-Known Member
Champagne-yeast eey. Great idea. That would probably work much better than the safbrew yeast. Have to get some...
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Bottoms_Up
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CSI - in your recipes, when you lower the temperature from 55-60 F down to 45 F and leave it for 8 weeks, do you lower the temperature gradually, or crash it directly to that temperature? If you lower it gradually, how much do you lower it by each day? Also, is there any harm in dropping the temperature even further, say to 35-40F? Thanks.
parkerhd36
Well-Known Member
well I'm looking into brewing this soon, and I'm too lazy to sit and read this entire thread. Is there anything terribly important that I need to know past the original post and recipe? Thanks in advance for encouraging my laziness
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
We crash the Westy clones down to lager temp overnight.
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
As long as the math is done to hit OG and the ferm temps are maintained, and the pitch rate is very close. There is an award winning Westy 12 recipe below (about 2/3rd's down the page):
http://www.candisyrup.com/recipes.html
On first attempt consider using the full pitch rate: (yeast pitching rates doc):
http://www.candisyrup.com/help-docs.html
Bottoms_Up
Well-Known Member
parkerhd36
Well-Known Member
You can try either but CSI has been giving continued support on the Candisyrup recipe as well as consistently testing it. It's also fantastic. Saq hasn't been around for a while so...
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
Colorado68
Well-Known Member
Couldn't wait any longer, cracked open the first bottle today ... WOW!
Amazing aroma and rich flavors... I know it's strong (10.2%) but doesn't have that alcohol forward taste.
Brewed this new world recipe in June, so still have several months + before it matures.
Big thumbs up to SAQ and CSI for recipe and support.
Went with DSmith recommendation using EC-1118 to carbonate and it worked out well.
Amazing aroma and rich flavors... I know it's strong (10.2%) but doesn't have that alcohol forward taste.
Brewed this new world recipe in June, so still have several months + before it matures.
Big thumbs up to SAQ and CSI for recipe and support.
Went with DSmith recommendation using EC-1118 to carbonate and it worked out well.
Bottoms_Up
Well-Known Member
Great label! Did it taste close to a real Westvletern? The head looks good - how much EC-118 did you use for 5 gallons? And how much extra sugar/syrup/wort? Thanks.
Bottoms_Up
Well-Known Member
He does say to mash in with 6 gallons (24 quarts), but the additional water (about 3.4 gallons, accounting for grain absorption, etc.) is added in at mash-out and/or batch sparge.
You lose water to evaporation in the boil, as well as some loss due to trub. Each system is different, depending on many variables, including the strength of the boil, shape of the boiling pot, height of the drain, etc., so the calculations have to be done for your own personal system. I grossly overestimated the amount of trub loss, and amount lost through evaporation, and ended up with a much lower OG than specified. For me, this beer produced a very small amount of trub loss compared to other beers that I have made.
For my system, I had calculated a pre-boil volume of 8.25 gallons. Now that I have seen the results, the next time I will aim for a pre-boil amount of 7.34 gallons, closer to what SAQ had recommended in his recipe (7.54 gallons),so just a little less than his. The post-boil amount for my system will then be about 5.5 gallons, allowing for some additional trub loss before kegging.
Colorado68
Well-Known Member
I used about 1/4 of the packet rehydrated and 4.8 oz. of table sugar for 2.7 volumes carbonation.
As for taste, I'd need them side by side to compare and unfortunately do not have a real Westy. From recollection, it's real close
Thanks for the input. My plan was to mash in at 6 gallons and batch sparge until i get to about 7.2 gallons or so. The only problem is I was under the impression i should not be sparging for this brew. This is the first time I've run into this problem, I am feeling like a deer in headlights because I really really don't want to mess this one up.
Bottoms_Up
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the information. I hope to bottle mine in another 2 or 3 weeks, and will go by your suggestion, although I may use corn sugar rather than table sugar.
Bottoms_Up
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the input. My plan was to mash in at 6 gallons and batch sparge until i get to about 7.2 gallons or so. The only problem is I was under the impression i should not be sparging for this brew. This is the first time I've run into this problem, I am feeling like a deer in headlights because I really really don't want to mess this one up.
I was also worried about messing it up, and actually I did with regards to the OG. However, it will likely still turn out well, but I might have a Westy 10, rather than a 12
I found that the only other real issue is controlling the temperature during fermentation. You want to keep it between about 79 and 83 F. Wrap blankets around it at first, and even at room temperature, it will climb to over 80 F within 2 or 3 days. Then you have to keep it from going too high, by taking off the blankets by layer. Later, the temperature will begin to drop below 80, and you may try controlling it by immersing the carboy in a large bucket of water controlled with an inexpensive fish aquarium heater with a temperature range of at least 82F (I think most heaters only go to about 82F), or something similar.I have blankets and a heating pad with temp control on deck for this one. I also have an old refrigerator in my basement that goes up to 55 for secondary at 50. Temp control is something I am actually pretty good with, the mash is my big concern on this brew.I was also worried about messing it up, and actually I did with regards to the OG. However, it will likely still turn out well, but I might have a Westy 10, rather than a 12
I was also worried about messing it up, and actually I did with regards to the OG. However, it will likely still turn out well, but I might have a Westy 10, rather than a 12
I have blankets and a heating pad with temp control on deck for this one. I also have an old refrigerator in my basement that goes up to 55 for secondary at 50. Temp control is something I am actually pretty good with, the mash is my big concern on this brew.
orangehero
Well-Known Member
Has anyone tried making 10 gallons of wort and splitting the sugar addition with one half receiving dark candi syrup and the other receiving sucrose to make both a westy clone and a tripel from the same grainbill?
The grain bill is fine for a tripel. The OG (1.090) is pushing the limits a little (just my opinion, it may be more like a quad). Whether or not you want to use the same yeast is an open question. I made a batch of the Westy clone and used the same yeast and a very similar grain bill but at a lower gravity for a blonde. The beer is still green but a little too clean for my taste.
Let us know how it turns out if you decide to do that.
orangehero
Well-Known Member
I suppose it would be more like a hoppier Golden Strong, but the differences in the two styles are not very distinct (arguably it's the yeast). I was thinking Tripel because of the yeast. I was planning on making a blonde or dubbel first and then repitching into the split sugar batches. You could even make a blonde and a dubbel, again varying the sugar, then do the same for a quad and tripel/bgsa (and make 5 gals of enkel from another sparge a la partigyle)...you can cover five styles in two brewdays with the same yeast.
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
+1. Agree, especially if running a single malt Pils version of the Westy, (secundum...years of testing and deduction the most likely version being done at St. Sixtus). A Pils only mash would allow a tripel and a quad simultaneously. Best to split the boil and dilute lower OG styles, i.e. Quad + Tripel. Different adjuncts per style to be added at T-10 or flame-out as usual. The volatile essence profiles are much too different to boil together so split boils are needed. We've been splitting 15 gal mashes, (for product comparison), for years on this project but this is a new twist on style splitting...great idea. It makes good time management sense also. You could probably get 3-6 styles and 6 batches done in two brew days --- (Tripel + Quad + Pater) x 2.
TriggerFingers
Well-Known Member
Has anyone made this clone with Wyeast 1388? I made a half batch of this last year with 3787 and it was fantastic! I ask about the 1388 because I have some of that currently....
What do you guys think?
What do you guys think?
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
We've tested it with WLP 510, (Bastogne), and WLP 500, (Chimay). The Orval yeast cuts through the high gravity like a knife but the Chimay has to languish a while to reach FG. Both turned out as very different ales but both very good nonetheless. Haven't tried it with Duvel yeast but would be very interested in your results. I suspect it would be a spicier/funkier ale. That being said the Westmalle yeast combined with the simple grist produces the balanced plummy quad that comes from St. Sixtus. Have yet to find an alternative yeast that will perform the same magic
I haven't tried that, but I would, using cooler fermentation temperatures. Or at least holding the temp down long enough so the yeast characteristics are less pronounced.
hoppyhorse
New Member
I just brewed the "Pious Traditional" yesterday alla Saq's recipe from 2010. The local homebrew shop was out of Darky Candy Syrup, and I was told by them that the Dark Candi Sugar would work the same way... It clearly does not. My color was way off from the photo of the glass of Westy 12 I had in Belgium this summer, and I suspect the flavor would also be off. In order to try to get closer to the desired color/flavor profile, I went to a (different) LHBS store today and bought the specialty malts Saq outlines for the New World version and a bag for BIAB. Mashed those grains on the stove top at 149-152 for an hour, boiled for 30min, chilled, and then added this reduced wort (800ml) to the primary fermenter which was already chugging along. Got a lot closer to the color, but it's still a little light. I fully expect this will be different from both the real Westy 12 and Saq's recipes, but what do you think I should expect?
Anyone ever added grain tea/specialty wort to the primary about 22hours after the yeast was pitched and krausen was present? Any ideas for what I should expect? Any issues? (I sanitized well, and I hope the 20 seconds it took me to pour the specialty wort in will not overly oxidize anything).
OG of first wort: 1.087 in about 6 gallons
WLP530 (2 vials for a 1.8ltr starter)
Anyone ever added grain tea/specialty wort to the primary about 22hours after the yeast was pitched and krausen was present? Any ideas for what I should expect? Any issues? (I sanitized well, and I hope the 20 seconds it took me to pour the specialty wort in will not overly oxidize anything).
OG of first wort: 1.087 in about 6 gallons
WLP530 (2 vials for a 1.8ltr starter)
Bottoms_Up
Well-Known Member
Did you remember to boil down about 3/4 gallon of the first runnings from the mash until it becomes a dark syrup (less than a pint after the boil)? This adds colour as well as additional flavour, and saq noted it as an important step.
hoppyhorse
New Member
No, I did not do the 3/4 of gallon boil down. I didn't get that far into the thread before planning the brewing session...
Bottoms_Up
Well-Known Member
Although this is an exceptionally long forum, I read every message in the entire forum at least 2 or 3 times before I started. There are numerous valuable tips. Saq also provides an updated recipe later, and several others provided other recipe options.
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
Your OG was good. The starter seemed a little shy even with the larger seed rate. e.g. the starter may not attenuate fully. Using mainly sucrose may also slow down fermentation, (Belgian Rock is about 99.6% sucrose + dye; yep you read that right). The sucrose can spell difficulty in high gravity ales.
With mainly sucrose it may be a little boozy. With the low pitch rate it may be a little cloying. With undisclosed specialty grains it's hard to know what malt profile you'll have. With the vorlaufed wort decoction/boildown you'll have a very nice maltose-caramel palate, (which, by the way was CSI's method borrowed 2 years back). Saq switched adjuncts for the Pious to D-180 and D-90 about mid-thread after comparing brew tests.
If the brew is intended to be a Westy 12 clone then the advice on this board varies. It's best to keep this ale simple, use the fewest and best ingredients. Pay attention to every detail regarding weights, volumes, temperatures, durations and calcs. Our simple grist approach to the Westy 12 has had dozens of categorical BJCP first place awards. A few have agreed to have their awards published. The ribbons and names are there for viewing at any time.
Brewed the pious 3 weeks ago and it's only down to 1.040 at 21c. Seems to be losing .005 per week after initial drop from 1.083 to 1.048 in 10 days. This looks like it's going to take 7 weeks to drop to 1.020.
It's fermenting in a brew fridge at 21c. Any thoughts on whether it's worth adding more yeast as it still seems to be moving down, just rather slowly
It's fermenting in a brew fridge at 21c. Any thoughts on whether it's worth adding more yeast as it still seems to be moving down, just rather slowly
How much yeast did you pitch? If you pitched enough healthy yeast you may want to just let the temperature rise up to 83 Fahrenheit or around 28 C. I would be tempted to pitch a starter at high krausen, but that is a judgment call and someone else may want to tackle that question.
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
A 1000 ml pitch would fall somewhere into the 140-180 billion cell mark depending on the seed rate, oxygenation, and starter method.
The full pitch rate for 5 gallons (20 L), of ale at 1.083 would be in the neighborhood of 311 billion cells with an under-pitch option of 260-280 billion. After 10 days the bulk of the yeast will be metabolically exhausted. A re-pitch would need to be minimally 2500ml to overcome the lack of oxygen and ABV.
Bottoms_Up
Well-Known Member
Just a couple of thoughts. Most of the german ales/lager's that ship in grolsch style bottles are usually lower ABV than Belgian Dark Strong ales so I would be hesitant about the rubber tolerance over time. Since the gaskets, (on my bottles), do not appear to be silicon another concern is the transfer of VOC's to the beer from the breaking down of the rubber. I've been meaning to try a few of our grolsch bottles on a Westy 12 as a test but haven't gotten around to it. It's worth a try as an experiment on one bottle but it would not be a long term storage solution
Hello, CSI. Did you ever try this experiment? If so, how did the Grolsch bottles hold up? I will soon be bottling my Westy, and was intending to use some Grolsch bottles, since I have lots of them, but few others.
orangehero
Well-Known Member
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