Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

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I just moved 10 gallons of this into the "lagering" phase. My SG was on at 1.092, and the two different carboys finished at 1.011 and 1.012. So not too bad. I also used 3# of store bought D2 syrup, and 3# of homemade, so we'll see how that turns out (all mixed, so it won't be a side by side sort of thing).

Just a question: My temps peaked out around 78-79* Will this be significantly different had it peaked around the 82 it should have?

Also, I did the "Old World" with a double decoction.
 
Also, one more question: Has anyone tried washing this yeast? I washed it and have 3 jars of it in my fridge. I don't plan on using it for another westy, but maybe do an American IPA or Pale Ale with it, similar to Lagunitas Lil Supthin' Wild.
 
I have this one on the docket to make over Christmas. I am definitely using ECY Abby yeast for this one. Has anyone tried this yet?
 
I have used ECY09 on my last batch and it is very similar to 530. I read that either 09 or ecy13 are a defunct yeast company's estimable offering. It may be true, but it is likely a different genetic varient based on when the cultures were each sourced.
 
smokinghole said:
I have used ECY09 on my last batch and it is very similar to 530. I read that either 09 or ecy13 are a defunct yeast company's estimable offering. It may be true, but it is likely a different genetic varient based on when the cultures were each sourced.
Click to expand...

What kind of temperatures did you ferment at? Was it hardier than 530? I thought about doing a side by side but I don't have the carboy space right now.
 
To those of you that allow your beer to finish at 80 to 85 F, what are you using to warm the wort?

For example, this time of year in Las Vegas, the temp inside the house is around 73, the garage is in the 40s. In the summer time, I could do this in the garage and refrigerate down to 80.

What's the best means to warm a 5 gallon volume of wort to 80 degrees?

I have a few seed starter mats, similar to a waterbed heater but smaller, meant to keep a seed tray warm - like this one
1339919b-414c-4986-a0f0-287340b8043e_300.jpg


The information printed on the front indicates that it's designed to raise soil temperatures about 20 degree F above ambient temperatures.

If controlled from a Johnson A419, would it work? Is there something better?
 
ultravista said:
To those of you that allow your beer to finish at 80 to 85 F, what are you using to warm the wort?

For example, this time of year in Las Vegas, the temp inside the house is around 73, the garage is in the 40s. In the summer time, I could do this in the garage and refrigerate down to 80.

What's the best means to warm a 5 gallon volume of wort to 80 degrees?

I have a few seed starter mats, similar to a waterbed heater but smaller, meant to keep a seed tray warm - like this one
1339919b-414c-4986-a0f0-287340b8043e_300.jpg


The information printed on the front indicates that it's designed to raise soil temperatures about 20 degree F above ambient temperatures.

If controlled from a Johnson A419, would it work? Is there something better?
Click to expand...

If you've got temperature control, essentially any heating element will work. The seed starter mats should be fine. Lots of people have had good luck just wrapping the fermenter in blankets and letting the yeast make their own heat.
 
If using a mat, do you suggest strapped to the carboy or the carboy sitting on it?

I'm now considering an aquarium heater and water bath.
 
I did not bust the 80s with ECY09 because it as the first time using it in this beer. It made PLENTY of flavor but I think next time I'll push the temp a bit more.

As to how I heat I use an aquarium heater and a waterbath. Never had an issue keeping a fermentation in the 80s using that method.
 
saq said:
I have gotten a few PMs from people who followed the two Westvleteren 12 threads I did regarding trying to clone this recipe and a competition with the other people who were in on it so I'm posting up my notes.

There are two ways of making this, a "New World" recipe that uses specialty malts, and a "Traditional" recipe that goes by the way Westvleteren has been making it for a while with just two basemalts and sugar.

The Pious New World - Took 1st place & BOS in the Westvleteren 12 clone comp with 43 points beating out a real Westvleteren 12 with 40 points.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 7.54 gal
Estimated OG: 1.090 SG
Estimated Color: 26.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 38.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
13.50 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 74.71 %
1.00 lb Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 5.53 %
0.50 lb Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 2.77 %
0.33 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 1.83 %
0.25 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 1.38 %
0.19 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 1.05 %
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (90 min) Hops 24.7 IBU
1.00 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.40 %] (30 min)Hops 5.0 IBU
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [4.10 %] (30 min) Hops 8.5 IBU
1.00 item Servomyces (10 min)
1.50 lb Dark Belgian Candi Syrup (80.0 SRM) Sugar 8.30 %
0.75 lb Amber Belgian Candi Syrup (40.0 SRM) Sugar 4.43 %
1 Pkgs Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) Yeast-Ale

Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 15.77 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Light Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
90 min Mash In Add 24.00 qt of water at 159.3 F 150.0 F

The Pious Traditional - I like this better than the New World.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 8.27 gal
Estimated OG: 1.092 SG
Estimated Color: 33.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 35.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
8.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 42.11 %
8.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 42.11 %
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (90 min) Hops 25.7 IBU
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [4.10 %] (20 min) Hops 7.0 IBU
0.50 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.80 %] (20 min)Hops 2.4 IBU
3.00 lb Dark 2 Belgian Candi Syrup (160.0 SRM) Sugar 15.79 %
1 Pkgs Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) Yeast-Ale
1lbs sugar added to beginning of boil, 1lbs added to last 5, 1lbs added in secondary.

Mash Schedule: Decoction Mash, Double
Total Grain Weight: 16.00 lb
----------------------------
Decoction Mash, Double
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
10 min Protein Rest Add 32.00 qt of water at 137.5 F 132.0 F
30 min Saccharification Decoct 8.79 qt of mash and boil it 151.0 F
30 min Saccharification Decoct 4.85 qt of mash and boil it 159.0 F

Same yeast is used in both, and same fermentation schedule is used in both. Chill the wort down to 65f, pitch and let it self rise to about 82-83f and try to hold it there. The yeast will keep the temp there for about 5 days when fermentation is about 80% done (about 1.018) and start to chill down to 65f until you hit terminal gravity at 1.012 which should take 2 days. After this rack off into a secondary (I did kegs for both as I keg conditioned) and chill to 50f for 7 weeks, then carb however you want.
Click to expand...

Just ordered supplies. I've read through some of the 50 plus pages, however, any major changes to the recipe?
 
Thanks for the recipe. I was going to try it with my Belgian friend as a bit of a treat. But then I noticed the fermentation temps. I don't have the equipment to regulate the temp - i just use room temp around 70f. I know it won't be as good, but is it even worth trying if I can't get the temp right?
 
jonlcrow said:
Thanks for the recipe. I was going to try it with my Belgian friend as a bit of a treat. But then I noticed the fermentation temps. I don't have the equipment to regulate the temp - i just use room temp around 70f. I know it won't be as good, but is it even worth trying if I can't get the temp right?
Click to expand...

It sounds like you can do fairly well if you can cool it to a mid-upper 60's to pitch , try to maintain that for a couple of days and then bring it into your 70F or warm area and wrap it un a blanket or two. The yeast should do a fairly good job of warming them selfs if you keep 'em snuggled up in a blankie.
It's better to use temp control if you have it but it's my opinion that you can make very good beer by doing the blanket trick.
 
So I've got my candi syrup.. My grain. I don't want to read back through the whole thread, but which yeast strain have people had the most success with? The 530?
 
You could try reading the first post. There has only ever been one yeast strained discussed for this beer.
 
CSI - may I suggest starting a new topic to cover your Chimay Grande Reserve (Blue) clone? Like the Westy, it's a great beer and deserves the same community feedback as this thread.
 
saq said:
You could try reading the first post. There has only ever been one yeast strained discussed for this beer.
Click to expand...

Yeah sorry the recipe doesn't show up properly unless I open it through the browser. I know some have been discussing making this using the Westmalle strain and also some ECY strain. I just ordered what I need to make the old world recipe.
 
ultravista said:
To those of you that allow your beer to finish at 80 to 85 F, what are you using to warm the wort?

For example, this time of year in Las Vegas, the temp inside the house is around 73, the garage is in the 40s. In the summer time, I could do this in the garage and refrigerate down to 80.

What's the best means to warm a 5 gallon volume of wort to 80 degrees?

I have a few seed starter mats, similar to a waterbed heater but smaller, meant to keep a seed tray warm - like this one
1339919b-414c-4986-a0f0-287340b8043e_300.jpg


The information printed on the front indicates that it's designed to raise soil temperatures about 20 degree F above ambient temperatures.

If controlled from a Johnson A419, would it work? Is there something better?
Click to expand...

if you wrap the fermenter in a sleeping bag or a blanket it should hit 82-84 on its own. i have brewed new world 2 times and wlp530 will get up there on its own. on thing to make sure of is to use a blow off tube not air lock. 530 likes to foam up! good luck
 
ultravista said:
CSI - may I suggest starting a new topic to cover your Chimay Grande Reserve (Blue) clone? Like the Westy, it's a great beer and deserves the same community feedback as this thread.
Click to expand...

The Chimay Grande Reserve really is a subtle, malty work of art and every bit as difficult to brew as some of the high gravity quads. We've run 4 trials so far on the Grande Reserve and it is proving to be achievable. Our Chimay Blue thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/chimay-grande-reserve-blue-369109/
 
Amazed tonight when I checked on my fermentation. Day 2 and it was foaming like crazy. Did the blanket wrapped around the carboy trick and it felt warm tonight when I checked on it. Not blowing off anymore, so I put the regular airlock on and just out of curiosity I stuck the temp probe in to see how high it was (because the blanket felt warm to the touch). It showed 86F on the thermometer. Really surprised it would get up that high with just a blanket. It was in a 70F room the whole time. Should be true to the original, I hope.
 
Those yeasties are crazy.

I brewed an Arrogant Bastard clone, chilled to 62 and pitched. By active fermentation it rose to 72 while the ambient temps in the room were 68/69. The carboy has a tshirt to block UV.

I bought a thermowell and measure the temp at the worts core. Much better than the side of the fermenter in my opinion and the best $16 I spent in a long time.

Up next week is the Westy clone. I can't wait.
 
gifty74 said:
I put the regular airlock on and just out of curiosity I stuck the temp probe in to see how high it was (because the blanket felt warm to the touch). It showed 86F on the thermometer. Really surprised it would get up that high with just a blanket. It was in a 70F room the whole time. Should be true to the original, I hope.
Click to expand...

I know what the Monks do, and what this recipe calls for, but pushing this yeast over 78F in a homebrew bucket/carboy setup is a big mistake IMO. In my experience, the beer turns out to be a hot, solventy mess by going that high. Under-pitching only exacerbates this.

I've obtained the best results pitching the correct amount of yeast at 65F, letting it naturally rise to 72F, hold there through the most active ferm (3 days), then slowly ramp to 78F over the next 5 days until FG is reached. This results in all of the classic esters with none of the harsh solvent character. YMMV.
 
g-star said:
I know what the Monks do, and what this recipe calls for, but pushing this yeast over 78F in a homebrew bucket/carboy setup is a big mistake IMO. In my experience, the beer turns out to be a hot, solventy mess by going that high. Under-pitching only exacerbates this.

I've obtained the best results pitching the correct amount of yeast at 65F, letting it naturally rise to 72F, hold there through the most active ferm (3 days), then slowly ramp to 78F over the next 5 days until FG is reached. This results in all of the classic esters with none of the harsh solvent character. YMMV.
Click to expand...

I agree with you but no one in this thread is going to believe you.:mug:
 
g-star said:
I know what the Monks do, and what this recipe calls for, but pushing this yeast over 78F in a homebrew bucket/carboy setup is a big mistake IMO. In my experience, the beer turns out to be a hot, solventy mess by going that high. Under-pitching only exacerbates this.

I've obtained the best results pitching the correct amount of yeast at 65F, letting it naturally rise to 72F, hold there through the most active ferm (3 days), then slowly ramp to 78F over the next 5 days until FG is reached. This results in all of the classic esters with none of the harsh solvent character. YMMV.
Click to expand...

We use FM-15's so I can't comment on how plastic buckets work. 80-81F with Westmalle has never given us fusels over brewing this for the last 2+ years. It's not really a matter of "belief" as much as scientific and empirical evidence. Saq has been following BLAM to the letter on method (68F-82F 4-6 days) and has never had fusels as far as I know. His ale beat out a Westvleteren 12 and BJCP judges would have certainly dinged him way down for fusels.

We set to peak at 80-81F every time. According to White Labs 78F should also be producing fusels. Could this possibly be some other problem?
 
Based on what I've read, underpitching works, as well as properly pitching. Would underpitching be vial/pack without a starter and properly pitching is multiple vials/packs or a combination with a starter?

Unless someone talks me out of it, I'll do what I regularly do, build a 1800 ML starter.
 
Brewskii said:
What's your opinion here?
Click to expand...

For a 5.5 gallon batch at 1.090, I've gotten best results pitching about 350B cells. This translates into a 3.5L starter on a stirplate with one tube of WLP530, assuming 75% viability.

I'm not here to argue, I can only give you my experience and feedback from independent contests/judges. I've had 3 different batches of this beer judged, here's a summary:

1. Old World: Pitch 275B cells at 65F, ramp right up to 82F/hold to FG. Scored a 25 with comments of "not malty enough and harsh/solvent/fusel".

2. New World: Pitch 275B cells at 65F, ramp right up to 82F/hold to FG. Scored a 27 with comments of "too peppery/phenolic and harsh/solvent/fusel".

3. New World: Pitch 350B cells at 65F, ramp to 72F/hold for 3 days, then increase slowly to 78F over 5 days, hold to FG. Scored a 36 with comments of "almost too estery, simplify recipe next time". Neither judge made any comments about fusel/hot alcohols.

I started out under-pitching b/c that is what is professed in BLAM, but I am now convinced that European pro brewing practices do not translate directly to the homebrew bucket/carboy scale.

To me, the results speak for themselves. Beer #3 scored this high and placed at only 9 weeks from brew day, so I only expect it to improve. If you really feel like you must ramp fermentation up into the 80's, I would do it more slowly (over 3-4 days rather than 1-2 days) and err on the side of over-pitching. Definitely DO NOT underpitch.
 
"This translates into a 3.5L starter on a stirplate with one tube of WLP530, assuming 75% viability."

To clarify, you make a single starter, 3.5L with one vial? Forgive me, I'm new to the starter process ... A 3.5L starter and 1 vial of yeast wil produce more yeast than a 1.8L starter and one vial of yeast?
 
ultravista said:
"This translates into a 3.5L starter on a stirplate with one tube of WLP530, assuming 75% viability."

To clarify, you make a single starter, 3.5L with one vial? Forgive me, I'm new to the starter process ... A 3.5L starter and 1 vial of yeast wil produce more yeast than a 1.8L starter and one vial of yeast?
Click to expand...

Yes. The yeast have more food, in a 3.5L starter (assuming it has the same gravity as a 1.8L starter), that can be used to divide.
 
ultravista said:
Is that divided starter then built up again or is the 3.5L enough?
Click to expand...

He's referring to yeast cell division/replication, not dividing the starter.

The 3.5L starter would be enough in this case. You really should read up on how to properly make a starter, it sounds like you have some things to learn. It will improve your beer immensely.
 
ultravista said:
Is that divided starter then built up again or is the 3.5L enough?
Click to expand...

High pitch rates on this clone have been done before at the beginning of this thread. To avoid going around in a beer circle :) I'll highlight how we have done it for 2+ years. First, we all knew the academics but learned via experimentation with this strain (Westmalle), that pitch rates (around 380-400 billion) reduce ester development well below what is needed. The ale ends up too dry with a low ester character. Pitching 300-320 billion cells is about right for good attenuation and ester development within 6-7 days. Our 2000ml starters create approximately 320-340 billion cells based on Palmer/Jamil Z. Taking the high road of fermentation here...
 
CSI said:
High pitch rates on this clone have all been done before. Not sure going around in a circle is worth the patience. This guy just needs to re-read the first post where Saq started with a 3.8L liter pitch. We all learned that higher pitch rates reduce ester development too far below what is needed and ends up creating too dry an ale. But hey, he can learn it the hard way...just needs to do it with a little more diplomacy. Taking the high road here...
Click to expand...

I hope you're not referring to me. I base my conclusions on personal experience, not blind acceptance of parroted dogma.

As far as the ever-popular "under-pitch to increase esters", here is a quote from the well-respected homebrewer Denny Conn regarding this topic:

Under pitching will actually reduce esters. The same enzyme, acetyl co-A, is used for both yeast growth and ester production. If it does one, it doesn't do much of the other. By underpitching, you were ensuring that the enzyme would be busy with cell growth and not doing much in the way of ester production.
Click to expand...

Again, I'm just giving my opinion based on multiple experiences with this recipe/yeast, and that is underpitching and fermenting too hot will not lead to increased esters, but will give the beer a "hot" character. I've gotten much better results (MORE esters, less solvent character) by pitching the correct amount of yeast and keeping the beer at 72F through high krausen.

I encourage everyone to try it both ways and decide for themselves. Its the only way to know for sure personally, and you will learn more about this fascinating strain to boot. As they say, YMMV.
 
Probably the best thing about this forum is learning what others experienced through trial and error (we don't have enough time to make all the mistakes and have all the successes that we have collectively!)

My experience with making high gravity belgian beers has been that if I don't oxygenate my wort enough, or have as successful a starter as I had targeted, then off-flavors that can probably be attributed to phenols and esters are noticeable to an extent that put my palate off a bit. My practice is to use a 2L starter and oxygenate the wort thoroughly prior to pitching (into 15 gallons.) The high DO enables the yeast to continue to propagate healthily for a while prior to starting their relatively unhealthy (for the yeast) anaerobic metabolic pathway.

Has anyone tried brewing this quad with a 65-70 deg F temperature profile? If you have, what is the difference in flavor that you notice?
 

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