The OFFICIAL Low Oxygen Brewing Thread, AKA lodo, lowdo, LOB

[Die_Beerery]

Since people genuinely care about this and want some data to be put out there, let use this thread as a resource for that. So want to try it, but unsure? Tried it and hated it? Tried it and loved it? Lets get together and discuss in a professional manner. With the title as it states maybe some folks can easily avoid it as well, maybe the best for both worlds!

Lets start it off with the material.

The Original "On Brewing Bavarian Helles

On Brewing Bavarian Helles V2

Methods of a Low Oxygen Brewhouse

Low Oxygen Brewing Blog

A vast page of reference material.

Lastly, the most up to date Low Oxygen Brewing overview THE STATE OF LOW OXYGEN BREWING: ON PROGRESS, UPDATES AND REVIEW

Please use these references and materials to make informed decisions about this brewing style.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Tried and loved it! My Mosaic American Pale Ale stayed fresh for ages. My Stout is the best Stout I have evah made and right now my Kolsch has not touched the air since I pitched the yeast nor will it until its out of the Keg and into the glass. LODO rocks!

 

[SleepyCreekBrews]

LODO? ...I think I skipped that day of acronym class , I was out brewing beer

Seriously, I'll pop in from time to time because I'd be interested in learning if there are some practical things that could produce significant, and noticeable changes in my beers.

 

[balrog]

subbed, for curiosity

 

[passedpawn]

Please everyone, just talk civilly about LODO or move on. If you're not interested in doing it, move on without posting. Thanks!

 

[MSK_Chess]

Actually I did the bare minimum. Boiled the Mash and Sparge water to get DO to near zero and quickly chilled the mash to temp, treated it with a very minimal amount of SMB 0.32g to give 25ppm for mash and 0.2g to give sparge 10ppm. As I recirculate I built a little aperture so that I could recirculate under the surface, this served for sparging under the surface as well. I used LODO water for fining with Polyclar 730 plus and purged the head space with CO2 in the conical flask when rehydrating the fining. Also when I fined with gelatin I used LODO water and made sure disturbance was minimal. Now I can do completely closed transfer from carboy to Keg under a little CO2 pressure. Built two simple vessels to take care of suck back when cold crashing, its all good. What I don't have and don't know how to do is a hotbreak filter but a apart from that adjustments were minimal.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Subscribed. Looking forward to the day when my LHBS carries Brewtan B.

 

[z-bob]

Actually I did the bare minimum. Boiled the Mash and Sparge water to get DO to near zero and quickly chilled the mash to temp, treated it with a very minimal amount of SMB 0.32g to give 25ppm for mash and 0.2g to give sparge 10ppm. As I recirculate I built a little aperture so that I could recirculate under the surface, this served for sparging under the surface as well. I used LODO water for fining with Polyclar 730 plus and purged the head space with CO2 in the conical flask when rehydrating the fining. Also when I fined with gelatin I used LODO water and made sure disturbance was minimal. Now I can do completely closed transfer from carboy to Keg under a little CO2 pressure. Built two simple vessels to take care of suck back when cold crashing, its all good. What I don't have and don't know how to do is a hotbreak filter but a apart from that adjustments were minimal.

Is that really the minimum? If so I'd be wasting my time to even try, but I'm still interested in this just for the academics.

What I *can* do with my current setup is deoxygenate my mash and sparge water by boiling and by adding Campden tablets. Mash in at 120-ish degrees and acidify with Sauergut, and rest there before raising the temperature to 150 or whatever. And try not to splash too much when transferring the wort. Would that be enough to benefit at all? I do BIAB mashes, and I package my beer in bottles not kegs.

I'm brewing good beer without worrying about O2, and I have a lot of room to grow just with dialing-in my water chemistry and my fermentation temperature control. Lodo can come later, but if there's some low-hanging fruit...

(did the Festbier thread get locked again?)

 

[MSK_Chess]

Is that really the minimum? If so I'd be wasting my time to even try, but I'm still interested in this just for the academics.

What I *can* do with my current setup is deoxygenate my mash and sparge water by boiling and by adding Campden tablets. Mash in at 120-ish degrees and acidify with Sauergut, and rest there before raising the temperature to 150 or whatever. And try not to splash too much when transferring the wort. Would that be enough to benefit at all? I do BIAB mashes, and I package my beer in bottles not kegs.

I'm brewing good beer without worrying about O2, and I have a lot of room to grow just with dialing-in my water chemistry and my fermentation temperature control. Lodo can come later, but if there's some low-hanging fruit...

(did the Festbier thread get locked again?)

Actually Z-Bob I think that you are doing exactly the same thing just using Campden tablets. I remember reading that a full volume BIAB was considered one of the best methods for controlling oxygen ingress. I never got round to making soured wort for acidification in the mash (just used acid malt) because there was some confusion in my mind because I read about kettle acidification as well and could not understand why it was necessary. I did email one of the guys about it but got no reply.

 

[Big Monk]

Even if people aren't interested in Low Oxygen, our brewing references page is a treasure trove in and of itself.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Even if people aren't interested in Low Oxygen, our brewing references page is a treasure trove in and of itself.

Hi Scotty can you tell us how to make a hotbreak filter and if or why kettle acidification with soured wort is necessary. Would be really interested in finding out. Cheers!

 

[Big Monk]

Hi Scotty can you tell us how to make a hotbreak filter and if or why kettle acidification with soured wort is necessary. Would be really interested in finding out. Cheers!

A hot break filter? Not sure what you mean but don't overthink it: remove hot and cold break as you normally would with a nice whirlpool during and after chilling.

For Sauergut, I default to this:

http://www.********************/ingredients/a-sauergut-reactor/

Notice the excerpts from Kunze (the highlighted pages). Sauergut has a ton of great effects on the wort and resulting fermentation and it also scavenges oxygen (not as drastically as the chemical antioxidants but it's there nonetheless) when you dough-in low enough as to not kill the live culture.

 

[MSK_Chess]

A hot break filter? Not sure what you mean but don't overthink it: remove hot and cold break as you normally would with a nice whirlpool during and after chilling.

For Sauergut, I default to this:

http://www.********************/ingredients/a-sauergut-reactor/

Notice the excerpts from Kunze (the highlighted pages). Sauergut has a ton of great effects on the wort and resulting fermentation and it also scavenges oxygen (not as drastically as the chemical antioxidants but it's there nonetheless) when you dough-in low enough as to not kill the live culture.

hotbreak filter

Have a look at this pic below, there are two glass apertures on both kettles. I suspect that these are a type of sight glass to view the clearing of the wort. I could be wrong though. If they are a type of site glass it begs the question how is the wort being filtered as its being boiled? If they are not sight glasses then what are they? They cannot be used for volume as they are too small and the only logical explanation left when all other possibilities have been eliminated is that they must be sight glasses to view the clarity of the wort as its hot break is filtered out. Surely?

 

[MSK_Chess]

As for soured wort, I am not that really interested in making a reactor. I need the only fridge I have for fermentation. I am interested in making a soured wort to acidify the mash though and possibly the kettle as well if its required. Although it would help immensely to understand why its needed in the kettle. On a rather positive not I have just tasted my LODO Kolsch and its utterly amazing. It tastes more like a lager than any of the other Kolschs I have made to date. Its very tasty.

 

[Big Monk]

hotbreak filter

Have a look at this pic below, there are two glass apertures on both kettles. I suspect that these are a type of sight glass to view the clearing of the wort. I could be wrong though. If they are a type of site glass it begs the question how is the wort being filtered as its being boiled? If they are not sight glasses then what are they? They cannot be used for volume as they are too small and the only logical explanation left when all other possibilities have been eliminated is that they must be sight glasses to view the clarity of the wort as its hot break is filtered out. Surely?

They are sight glasses. They aren't used for volume but rather for clarity. It's good to see the wort as you brew. Helps you troubleshoot on the fly if needed (bad conversion, etc.)

The MLT sight glass is used to view conversion progress and wort clarity.

The BK sight glass is used to see clarity of wort as the whirlpool is going.

Beerery can correct me if I've misinterpreted the BK sight glass but i'm pretty sure I got that right.

 

[homoeccentricus]

You can use acid malt instead, like I do.

 

[h22lude]

Subbing to this.

I did email the admins the other day and ask for a LODO sub forum. Yooper emailed me back and said she would bring it up to the other admins and try to get it implemented.

 

[Big Monk]

As for soured wort, I am not that really interested in making a reactor. I need the only fridge I have for fermentation. I am interested in making a soured wort to acidify the mash though and possibly the kettle as well if its required. Although it would help immensely to understand why its needed in the kettle. On a rather positive not I have just tasted my LODO Kolsch and its utterly amazing. It tastes more like a lager than any of the other Kolschs I have made to date. Its very tasty.

No need to make a reactor. That's a convenience thing if you brew as often as Beerery does.

You would use it in the kettle to drop the wort pH going into the fermenter, just like you would using any other variety of acid.

 

[Big Monk]

You can use acid malt instead, like I do.

Right. Sauermalz is the next best thing compared to Sauergut and we have been working on implementing revised calculations for it to make its use more reliable.

The only thing you don't get with Sauermalz is the oxidation reduction potential.

 

[Big Monk]

Subbing to this.

I did email the admins the other day and ask for a LODO sub forum. Yooper emailed me back and said she would bring it up to the other admins and try to get it implemented.

We have a forum at ********************.

I'm not sure how I feel about having subforums on other sites. Doesn't seem all that fair since we have our own forums at our own site. Let popular demand/admin preference drive that I guess.

 

[h22lude]

We have a forum at ********************.

I'm not sure how I feel about having subforums on other sites. Doesn't seem all that fair since we have our own forums at our own site. Let popular demand/admin preference drive that I guess.

Isn't it just like having homebrewtalk, aha, reddit, beeradvocate? They are all home brewing forums. I'd think having LODO brewing on different forums would get more people to try it and more information available. Plus having a sub forum isn't much different than having a thread about it. A sub forum would keep it more organized than people asking different questions in the same thread.

I guess if people don't want a sub forum here, let the admins know so they don't add it. Or start a poll and see how many people would like or not like a LODO sub forum.

 

[z-bob]

I just read that pdf on Bavarian Helles, and if 1 ppm dissolved oxygen is the upper limit, and no copper is allowed anywhere on the hot side, it's a waste of time for me to even try.

I still like the idea of using Sauergut to acidify the mash, and having my own reactor to make it. The water here is quite alkaline, and my beers got a lot better when I started using acid malt.

 

[Big Monk]

I just read that pdf on Bavarian Helles, and if 1 ppm dissolved oxygen is the upper limit, and no copper is allowed anywhere on the hot side, it's a waste of time for me to even try.

I still like the idea of using Sauergut to acidify the mash, and having my own reactor to make it. The water here is quite alkaline, and my beers got a lot better when I started using acid malt.

You'd be surprised what a few changes in process and metabisulfite will do. You can certainly stay well below 1 ppm on the hot side. Easily. The cold side processes may take some trial and error for you but when you dial that in then there is no reason you can't stay below 0.15 ppm on the cold side.

Just like anything it will take some practice and some change. You can certainly get there though.

As far as copper is concerned, use Brewtan B/gallotannins as recommended in the mash and boil.

Try reading this:

http://www.********************/low-oxygen-methods/

and this:

http://www.********************/brewing-methods/low-oxygen-review/

 

[Hanglow]

I tried this for the last porter I made, using the trifecta of SMB/AA/Brewtan B (as I have copper in my copper ) I did notice greatly reduced aroma coming from the mash. If anyone in the UK wants Brewtan B then the malt miller sells it for a very reasonable price.

 

[MSK_Chess]

They are sight glasses. They aren't used for volume but rather for clarity. It's good to see the wort as you brew. Helps you troubleshoot on the fly if needed (bad conversion, etc.)

The MLT sight glass is used to view conversion progress and wort clarity.

The BK sight glass is used to see clarity of wort as the whirlpool is going.

Beerery can correct me if I've misinterpreted the BK sight glass but i'm pretty sure I got that right.

ok now i understand! Yes it makes sense. I thought that perhaps the wort was somehow circulated and filtered as it boiled, clearly that's not the case and a conventional whirlpool is used.

 

[MSK_Chess]

You can use acid malt instead, like I do.

I do use acid malt just like you although i doubt its quite the same as using soured wort.

 

[MSK_Chess]

I just read that pdf on Bavarian Helles, and if 1 ppm dissolved oxygen is the upper limit, and no copper is allowed anywhere on the hot side, it's a waste of time for me to even try.

I still like the idea of using Sauergut to acidify the mash, and having my own reactor to make it. The water here is quite alkaline, and my beers got a lot better when I started using acid malt.

I have copper too and still have good results attempting LODO. I don't use Brewtan B in the mash though but i do use SMB in the mash and sparge and Polyclar 730 plus after fermentation and as far as i can tell it too is an anti-oxidant.

 

[MSK_Chess]

I must say gentlemen that I do find the proclivity for using German words not a little pretentious. What's wrong with acid malt and soured wort? Nah just messin wid yah!

 

[schematix]

sub

 

[whovous]

sub

 

[newuser12345]

I have copper too and still have good results attempting LODO. I don't use Brewtan B in the mash though but i do use SMB in the mash and sparge and Polyclar 730 plus after fermentation and as far as i can tell it too is an anti-oxidant.

You aren't doing LODO then. The threshold for oxidation is very very low with this method and you are exceeding it with fenton reactions. Due to the extremely low level of oxidation that is acceptable, this is not a linear process. You are exceeding 1ppm and therefore aren't doing LODO.

 

[Big Monk]

I have copper too and still have good results attempting LODO. I don't use Brewtan B in the mash though but i do use SMB in the mash and sparge and Polyclar 730 plus after fermentation and as far as i can tell it too is an anti-oxidant.

You aren't doing LODO then. The threshold for oxidation is very very low with this method and you are exceeding it with fenton reactions. Due to the extremely low level of oxidation that is acceptable, this is not a linear process. You are exceeding 1ppm and therefore aren't doing LODO.

While I agree that Fenton reactions should certainly be considered and that if copper is used that a metal chelating agent such as Brewtan B should be utilized, I disagree wholeheartedly with the remainder of your post.

This is not an “all or nothing” process. As good as the GBF “Helles” paper is, the one thing we are now stuck with is a stigma of the “all or nothing” mentality. If you are executing the mechanical and chemical exclusion methods on the hot side, then you are on the path. You may be sacrificing that flavor upstream but you can work on that. You can’t maintain a flavor you never preserved and preservation begins in the mash tun.

Chess: Keep doing what you are doing. It’s a marathon, not a sprint. You may see some impacts upstream with flavor longevity but nothing a SS chiller or some Brewtan B won’t help out with. You are on the right track.

I urge everyone to read ALL of the links that Beerery posted in the first post, especially these two:

http://www.********************/low-oxygen-methods/

and

http://www.********************/brewing-methods/low-oxygen-review/

The GBF Helles papers are a great resource but there is some information in there that needs to be updated and corrected. I would recommend against using it as a sole resource for the information about Low Oxygen brewing.

 

[schematix]

You aren't doing LODO then. The threshold for oxidation is very very low with this method and you are exceeding it with fenton reactions. Due to the extremely low level of oxidation that is acceptable, this is not a linear process. You are exceeding 1ppm and therefore aren't doing LODO.

I use a Therminator (copper brazed stainless) for chilling my strike water and a Hydra (which has a huge copper surface are) for chilling the boil and i still see significant flavor benefits, especially in regards to flavor longevity.

Maybe(?) not as good as an all stainless system, but the gains to be had from low oxygen mashing via pre-boiled water and chemical or biological scavenging, along with spunding on the cold side are well worth the efforts.

 

[MSK_Chess]

You aren't doing LODO then. The threshold for oxidation is very very low with this method and you are exceeding it with fenton reactions. Due to the extremely low level of oxidation that is acceptable, this is not a linear process. You are exceeding 1ppm and therefore aren't doing LODO.

I see. Actually I have a stainless steel heated mash tun, a stainless steel false bottom, stainless steel fittings and the only copper I have on it is a 3/4 bsp nut and a copper pipe thats about 12cm long. Also a copper wort chiller. Are these enough to exceed 1ppm oxygen ingress due to fenton reactions? As the learned gentlemen above have stated, its not an all or nothing proposition and having adopted the methodology as best I can with the ingredients and equipment that I have at my disposal I can honestly state that I have observed a marked improvement in the quality of the beers that I make. Remarkably so. If its not LODO then so be it but I still like it.

 

[newuser12345]

While I agree that Fenton reactions should certainly be considered and that if copper is used that a metal chelating agent such as Brewtan B should be utilized, I disagree wholeheartedly with the remainder of your post.

This is not an “all or nothing” process. As good as the GBF “Helles” paper is, the one thing we are now stuck with is a stigma of the “all or nothing” mentality. If you are executing the mechanical and chemical exclusion methods on the hot side, then you are on the path. You may be sacrificing that flavor upstream but you can work on that. You can’t maintain a flavor you never preserved and preservation begins in the mash tun.

Chess: Keep doing what you are doing. It’s a marathon, not a sprint. You may see some impacts upstream with flavor longevity but nothing a SS chiller or some Brewtan B won’t help out with. You are on the right track.

I urge everyone to read ALL of the links that Beerery posted in the first post, especially these two:

http://www.********************/low-oxygen-methods/

and

http://www.********************/brewing-methods/low-oxygen-review/

The GBF Helles papers are a great resource but there is some information in there that needs to be updated and corrected. I would recommend against using it as a sole resource for the information about Low Oxygen brewing.

you can disagree with me if you want, but my point is grounded in science, and the nice thing about science is its true whether you agree with it or not. This process involves keeping very sensitive malt polyphenols from getting oxidized. These compounds are oxidized at an incredibly low DO level. fenton reactions take your beer above that very low threshold. This isn't my opinion, this is science. If you have copper in your system and are doing nothing to mitigate its deleterious effects, you are oxidizing your beer above the threshold. End of story.

 

[newuser12345]

I see. Actually I have a stainless steel heated mash tun, a stainless steel false bottom, stainless steel fittings and the only copper I have on it is a 3/4 bsp nut and a copper pipe thats about 12cm long. Also a copper wort chiller. Are these enough to exceed 1ppm oxygen ingress due to fenton reactions? As the learned gentlemen above have stated, its not an all or nothing proposition and having adopted the methodology as best I can with the ingredients and equipment that I have at my disposal I can honestly state that I have observed a marked improvement in the quality of the beers that I make. Remarkably so. If its not LODO then so be it but I still like it.

the bastardization of all the research and work done by people prior to the homebrew scaling and dumbing down of Low oxygen brewing drives me nuts. The truth is, the threshold of DO is very low. This is one area where the pros have it better than us. Mash tun geometry, automation, more high tech oxygen stripping tech and precision engineering gve the pros an upper hand.

I cringe for Kunze when I hear concessions being made that render the entire process pointless.

 

[newuser12345]

I use a Therminator (copper brazed stainless) for chilling my strike water and a Hydra (which has a huge copper surface are) for chilling the boil and i still see significant flavor benefits, especially in regards to flavor longevity.

Maybe(?) not as good as an all stainless system, but the gains to be had from low oxygen mashing via pre-boiled water and chemical or biological scavenging, along with spunding on the cold side are well worth the efforts.

just...no. malt polyphenols that you are trying to preserve oxidize at such a low threshold will be gone. The suggestions made by the low oxygen proponents here are good, especially on the cold side. Better yeast and fermentation management, Homebrewers that were once siphoning their beer into an open keg are now doing closed transfers and spunding. Cold crashing with CO2 reservoirs instead or letting air get sucked back (although with proper technique fermenter cold crashing can be eliminated.) These things will make an already oxidized beer seem less oxidized, but low oxygen brewing involves, well low oxygen. The german "it" is real. Whether everyone can taste it is another story, but that much copper in your system is oxidizing your beers and you are losing the polyphenols we try so hard to keep.

 

[Big Monk]

you can disagree with me if you want, but my point is grounded in science, and the nice thing about science is its true whether you agree with it or not. This process involves keeping very sensitive malt polyphenols from getting oxidized. These compounds are oxidized at an incredibly low DO level. fenton reactions take your beer above that very low threshold. This isn't my opinion, this is science. If you have copper in your system and are doing nothing to mitigate its deleterious effects, you are oxidizing your beer above the threshold. End of story.

You're preaching to the choir! I'm pretty familiar with the process...

I don't think anyone will disagree with the science, especially not Beerery or I, but advocating for a stepwise approach is getting people interested in the methods.

Subsequent equipment modifications or the incorporation of some sort of gallotannin based compound like Brewtan B will help those with small amounts of copper in their systems. People are getting great results using their copper chillers and BTB.


You're not wrong in a technical sense but rather in the way you communicate it. They are plenty of people at the LOB forum, HBT and the AHA forum who worked their way up to all SS systems and follow the methods to a T. They wouldn't have gotten there without a phased approach. Say what you want about that but it's a big leap forward to communicating the ideas in a desirable way.

the bastardization of all the research and work done by people prior to the homebrew scaling and dumbing down of Low oxygen brewing drives me nuts. The truth is, the threshold of DO is very low. This is one area where the pros have it better than us. Mash tun geometry, automation, more high tech oxygen stripping tech and precision engineering gve the pros an upper hand.

I cringe for Kunze when I hear concessions being made that render the entire process pointless.

Being that I co-founded LOB.com with one of those people I find it hard to stomach the word bastardization. I'd say Low Oxygen brewing has been vastly expanded and improved by our contributions. You have to start somewhere. While I agree that many people start out with obvious flaws remaining in the way they execute the process, the fact is they are trying it and improving with every subsequent batch. I can't see anything wrong with that.

If you have any questions about the techniques just let us know.

 

[h22lude]

You're preaching to the choir! I'm pretty familiar with the process...

I don't think anyone will disagree with the science, especially not Beerery or I, but advocating for a stepwise approach is getting people interested in the methods.

Subsequent equipment modifications or the incorporation of some sort of gallotannin based compound like Brewtan B will help those with small amounts of copper in their systems. People are getting great results using their copper chillers and BTB.

You're not wrong in a technical sense but rather in the way you communicate it. They are plenty of people at the LOB forum, HBT and the AHA forum who worked their way up to all SS systems and follow the methods to a T. They wouldn't have gotten there without a phased approach. Say what you want about that but it's a big leap forward to communicating the ideas in a desirable way.



Being that I co-founded LOB.com with one of those people I find it hard to stomach the word bastardization. I'd say Low Oxygen brewing has been vastly expanded and improved by our contributions. You have to start somewhere. While I agree that many people start out with obvious flaws remaining in the way they execute the process, the fact is they are trying it and improving with every subsequent batch. I can't see anything wrong with that.

I agree. It would be very hard for a lot of people to get new equipment or replace their current stuff all at once. While brewing with a cooper chiller may not be the best lodo practice, it gets people to try lodo with other parts of brewing until they can get all SS parts.

I'm just starting and will be using my cooper chiller. I don't have brewtan b either. Not the best situation but it is what I have to deal with for now. It will still be less oxygen than before. Maybe for those that can't go full out right away, we call it lower oxygen brewing.

 

[newuser12345]

You're preaching to the choir! I'm pretty familiar with the process...

I don't think anyone will disagree with the science, especially not Beerery or I, but advocating for a stepwise approach is getting people interested in the methods.

Subsequent equipment modifications or the incorporation of some sort of gallotannin based compound like Brewtan B will help those with small amounts of copper in their systems. People are getting great results using their copper chillers and BTB.


You're not wrong in a technical sense but rather in the way you communicate it. They are plenty of people at the LOB forum, HBT and the AHA forum who worked their way up to all SS systems and follow the methods to a T. They wouldn't have gotten there without a phased approach. Say what you want about that but it's a big leap forward to communicating the ideas in a desirable way.



Being that I co-founded LOB.com with one of those people I find it hard to stomach the word bastardization. I'd say Low Oxygen brewing has been vastly expanded and improved by our contributions. You have to start somewhere. While I agree that many people start out with obvious flaws remaining in the way they execute the process, the fact is they are trying it and improving with every subsequent batch. I can't see anything wrong with that.

If you have any questions about the techniques just let us know.

A step wise approach is fine, just don't kid yourself into thinking you are following a truly scientific approach or the teachings of Kunze or Narziss while doing it. If people need to make a hundred no Low oxygen batches while incorporating a step by step tiny change approach, then by all means, just don't kid yourself into thinking you haven't volatized the polyphenols we are all so desperately trying to keep.
I understand you and that other guy have put some time into a website and need to make this approachable to the average homebrewer, but by sacrificing the very specific and technical aspects of the brewing process to do that, you destroy it in the process. Here's the science and inescapable truth: Low oxygen brewing yields a different product that other methods, and for a homebrewer, you have a very very very small margin of error. Throwing 50 feet of copper into your beer, or having a 1 foot deep, half foot wide open mash with no mash cap or any number of other things I've hear people espouse to doing while still claiming to be doing low oxygen brewing is simply incorrect and a bastardization of all the work brewing scientists have done on this subject.