The [Horribly Unpopular] Soccer Thread

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

Well not much hope for England , not until the FA wakes up smells the coffee and realises that a continental style of football at grassroots is the way forward. . The FA thinks that fancy footwork and selfish hogging of the ball is what 8 yr olds should be taught. Luckily my 8 yr old has a UEFA B qualified coach who used to train academy football in Italy so they are well versed in a continental ticKa tacka style of play.

There never was much hope for England in as long as I can remember!!! Apart from 1990, they have never been a cohesive unit and will always fall short.

My only hope for this World Cup as a Southampton supporter is that Adam Lallana shows us what he can really do, as J Rod is already out through injury. At least now that I am American these days, I get to support TWO teams!

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

An interesting theory I read about why England has struggled on the World Stage is because of the rise of the premiership. Basically with less players able to move up to the top levels, it creates a growth issue. Even the Spaniards and Germans have teams for their youth to move up to. There's also the lack of B squad issues too. Other top teams like Bayern, Barca, etc. have B teams for youth to develop in as well.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

An interesting theory I read about why England has struggled on the World Stage is because of the rise of the premiership. Basically with less players able to move up to the top levels, it creates a growth issue. Even the Spaniards and Germans have teams for their youth to move up to. There's also the lack of B squad issues too. Other top teams like Bayern, Barca, etc. have B teams for youth to develop in as well.

This is one of the reasons the English sports media are having a minor love-in with Southampton for the meantime. They have an excellent academy that is pumping out quality English players like Bale, Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Lallana, Luke Shaw......It is something that the rest of the PL are catching onto, but will be a long time in development.

 

[HomeBrewForum]

This is one of the reasons the English sports media are having a minor love-in with Southampton for the meantime. They have an excellent academy that is pumping out quality English players like Bale, Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Lallana, Luke Shaw......It is something that the rest of the PL are catching onto, but will be a long time in development.

They most certainly are still playing catch up buty when the FA is still insisting at grass roots level that it should all be about fancy footwork and not passing the ball then in 20 yrs time we will still be in the same position.

The premiership relies too heavily on buying in foriegn players and not promoting home grown talent.

 

[aygov]

Who here thinks Liverpool are going to win the PL?

They seem to be scoring for fun at the moment so I can see them winning at least 3 out of 4 of their remaining fixtures with the Chelsea fixture being up in the air.

City still have 2 games in hand at the moment so I think they still have a hand on the wheel, but the scouse have the momentum. It should be an interesting run in to the end of the season.

 

[Grannyknot]

United to sack moyes?.....
3 months too late in my opinion.

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

United to sack moyes?.....
3 months too late in my opinion.

Not a fan. He should have gotten at least til next January. Though the kicker is Everton is poised for a UCL shot so it makes Moyes look all the worse.

 

[aygov]

United to sack moyes?.....
3 months too late in my opinion.

Well, he's officially sacked and as an Arsenal fan I'd say 9 seasons too soon.

I just think people are still discounting how much of what United were being down to Fergie. It's becoming more and more apparent that he was a large part of the reason United were as good as they were and you're not just going to get in another manager to pick right up where he left off.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

I just think people are still discounting how much of what United were being down to Fergie. It's becoming more and more apparent that he was a large part of the reason United were as good as they were and you're not just going to get in another manager to pick right up where he left off.

Sir Alex WAS Man U. They had under achieved ever since the Munich plane crash despite all the extra support that got them and the cash they have had. One manager after another showed promise, but they never really hit the heights until Alex came along. They cannot rely on any one manager to get the good times back, one like him comes along maybe once in a lifetime.......And I'm no fan whatsoever of the man or the team.

 

[aygov]

Sir Alex WAS Man U. They had under achieved ever since the Munich plane crash despite all the extra support that got them and the cash they have had. One manager after another showed promise, but they never really hit the heights until Alex came along. They cannot rely on any one manager to get the good times back, one like him comes along maybe once in a lifetime.......And I'm no fan whatsoever of the man or the team.

Exactly.

A friend, who's a Man U supporter, keeps insisting that it's just a matter of getting someone in to get them back to playing the Manchester United way. I told him the United way is actually the SAF way and that you're never going to get that back. He disagreed with me though it's not surprising as he's been pretty blinkered through this whole SAF/Moyes ordeal. He truly thought that Moyes would slot in with a small hiccup for a season and then United would be back to winning titles. You'd think a United supporter would realize what an influence SAF was and how scary it is to lose that but I think most of them honestly thought that the club would continue to win because it's Manchester United. It doesn't matter who's at the helm. I think now were seeing that prove to be a very painful misconception....

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

I really hate Real Madrid, they're my least favorite team in the world They're chock full of divers. If I'm Bayern on the return leg I don't put the ball out when Pepe goes down. Anyone else I'd consider it but not for that whiny beotch.

 

[aygov]

I really hate Real Madrid, they're my least favorite team in the world They're chock full of divers. If I'm Bayern on the return leg I don't put the ball out when Pepe goes down. Anyone else I'd consider it but not for that whiny beotch.

Don't worry, no one can out dive Robben.

 

[Grannyknot]

I really hate Real Madrid, they're my least favorite team in the world They're chock full of divers. If I'm Bayern on the return leg I don't put the ball out when Pepe goes down. Anyone else I'd consider it but not for that whiny beotch.

Pepe is a terd.
But as Arsenal fans, we need to take that stuff with a grain of salt, after all, Giroud is one of the biggest whiners in the league. The man argues his case even after the ref has awarded him a free kick.....wtf.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Does anybody aside from me wish Man U tanks and drops to the second tier? I'd love to see so many pseudo soccer-fan Eurosnobs drop off since they are no longer "supporting" the best or most popular team.

I'd also hope the pain of relegation makes them think twice about saying MLS needs pro/rel, though it'll never happen.

Oh well, just pipe dreams =)

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

While MLS does not currently have the number of teams or the structure to support promotion/relegation, it would be a great addition for the future. It really adds a heck of a lot of interest for the poorer team's supporters. My team has almost always been looking up the league rather than down. If not for the danger of relegation, there would have been a lifetime of largely pointless seasons. Prom/Rel gives the whole division something to play for.

 

[aygov]

Does anybody aside from me wish Man U tanks and drops to the second tier? I'd love to see so many pseudo soccer-fan Eurosnobs drop off since they are no longer "supporting" the best or most popular team.

I'd also hope the pain of relegation makes them think twice about saying MLS needs pro/rel, though it'll never happen.

Oh well, just pipe dreams =)

They'll just find a new home to house their plasticselves.

I do think down the road relegation should be explored. It makes life at the bottom a bit more meaningful for teams that aren't at the top.

That being said, they shouldn't implement it until there is enough support below not to bankrupt a club that drops. We might never get to a stage where relegation makes sense, but it shouldn't be something that should be completely off the table for eternity.

 

[Grannyknot]

While I don't support ManU....far from it actually....I don't wish any ill will on them.
They've done so much for the English Premier league. The way they've managed their brand has not only brought wealth to their club, its brought wealth to the league. Their TV exposure is so vast, I'd argue they are (almost) solely responsible for the massive TV contracts the teams benefit from every year.

Also, I give them credit for their consistent performance in European competitions. They've done a lot to help England's UEFA coefficient....and as a fan of a team perpetually in 4th place, that means a lot.

Credit where credit is due.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Whew, I woke up in a grumpy mood. Couple that with hearing nothing about SAF and ManU and you get my above post!

The plastic fans still bug me, but I was kind of harsh there.

 

[aygov]

Whew, I woke up in a grumpy mood. Couple that with hearing nothing about SAF and ManU and you get my above post!

The plastic fans still bug me, but I was kind of harsh there.

I despise plastics.

They see a highlight about X winning Y and then they go out and buy a shirt and cheer like there is no tomorrow when they win and moan like no tomorrow if they don't win. If the club hits a fallow spell the shirt sits in the closet until they find a new flavor of the month or results pick back up. If you do any of that you can take a long walk off a short pier.

I don't mind people picking top teams to support. It's understandable over here as the top teams are what gets the most coverage. What I do mind is when that top team hits a rough patch and their "support" dries up.

I'm not going to say I've supported Arsenal since I was a kid, I think the '05/'06 season was the first one where I started following them. I picked them mainly because of Thierry Henry. The sublime class he demonstrated on the pitch hooked me. Add to that one my my friends from England, upon hearing I had an interest in the beautiful game, informed me that I would be supporting The Arsenal and there was no debate.

Now, we've won precisely f-all since I started supporting them, but you know what? It doesn't matter. Being a Gooner is in my blood. I'm up at the crack of dawn for the early kick-offs and I'll be down the pub watching the FA cup final. If we don't win anything this season then, hell, there's always next season.

*EDIT* And for god sakes, please support your local MLS team! They might not be as glamorous as the big clubs in England and Europe, but they all play pretty good football and it's only getting better.

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

Pepe is a terd.
But as Arsenal fans, we need to take that stuff with a grain of salt, after all, Giroud is one of the biggest whiners in the league. The man argues his case even after the ref has awarded him a free kick.....wtf.

No one is as bad as Pepe. He's the one player I'd be cool with being injured. I'm not one who typically wishes injury on anyone because that's cruel, but he deserves it. He's dirty and a diver, the worst of both worlds. Divers and whiners are annoying, but when you add in being dirty it takes it to a totally different level. I mean the time he kicked a guy for diving then mushed his face on the ground then stomped on him when the other team tried to pull him off the guy he just kicked and mushed, then swung and hit a guy. Dude is flat out scum. He's like Ty Cobb without the honor (Cobb wouldn't dive)

 

[Grannyknot]

I despise plastics.

They see a highlight about X winning Y and then they go out and buy a shirt and cheer like there is no tomorrow when they win and moan like no tomorrow if they don't win. If the club hits a fallow spell the shirt sits in the closet until they find a new flavor of the month or results pick back up. If you do any of that you can take a long walk off a short pier.

I don't mind people picking top teams to support. It's understandable over here as the top teams are what gets the most coverage. What I do mind is when that top team hits a rough patch and their "support" dries up.

I'm not going to say I've supported Arsenal since I was a kid, I think the '05/'06 season was the first one where I started following them. I picked them mainly because of Thierry Henry. The sublime class he demonstrated on the pitch hooked me. Add to that one my my friends from England, upon hearing I had an interest in the beautiful game, informed me that I would be supporting The Arsenal and there was no debate.

Now, we've won precisely f-all since I started supporting them, but you know what? It doesn't matter. Being a Gooner is in my blood. I'm up at the crack of dawn for the early kick-offs and I'll be down the pub watching the FA cup final. If we don't win anything this season then, hell, there's always next season.

*EDIT* And for god sakes, please support your local MLS team! They might not be as glamorous as the big clubs in England and Europe, but they all play pretty good football and it's only getting better.

I can get where you're coming from.
I've been called a plastic fan. I was a Nottingham Forest fan until 1999.
I was at Highbury in summer 1998 when Forest opened the season away to Arsenal. Arsenal won 2-1 with a fantastic goal from marc overmars. I was so impressed with Arsenal's play that I decided to sort of be a closet fan of theirs that season.

Forest were relegated that season and still haven't been back in the premier league. Back in 1999, if your team wasn't in the premier league, you couldn't watch them play in the US. Also, the internet wasn't what it is now, so getting even a box score from the football championship was sometimes a challenge. Video highlights were near impossible to find. Since they were so hard to keep up with, I switched allegiances. Took a lot of grief about it, and still do to this day.

So since 99-00 season I've been a bigger Arsenal supporter than I ever imagined. Still follow Forest a bit, but at this point, if they ever get back into the Premier League, I'll be for Arsenal when they play.

I guess that makes me a plastic. Not sure. If so, then so be it, I can't help it.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

These posts just made me do the maths. If I got it right, I think I am starting my 50th year as a Southampton supporter!! I guess I'm not plastic then!

Edit: yes, I'm that old! (57)

 

[jgarretson]

Just remember these "plastic" fans are what put the EPL on the tube every morning for us to watch. If they weren't buying the shirts and making noise about the game, we'd all be huddled around an internet browser watching bad feeds. Let alone MLS survive and dare I say their 20 years on.

I dislike the nugget who says "we" when referring to Man U but has never been to Old Stratford as much as anyone but I thank them for their love of the game nonetheless.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Reno_eNVy]

While MLS does not currently have the number of teams or the structure to support promotion/relegation, it would be a great addition for the future. It really adds a heck of a lot of interest for the poorer team's supporters. My team has almost always been looking up the league rather than down. If not for the danger of relegation, there would have been a lifetime of largely pointless seasons. Prom/Rel gives the whole division something to play for.

They'll just find a new home to house their plasticselves.

I do think down the road relegation should be explored. It makes life at the bottom a bit more meaningful for teams that aren't at the top.

That being said, they shouldn't implement it until there is enough support below not to bankrupt a club that drops. We might never get to a stage where relegation makes sense, but it shouldn't be something that should be completely off the table for eternity.

I'll always be in the anti-pro/rel party but I won't insult someone or argue to death about why it shouldn't be done. I have my points, pro-pro/rel people have theirs, and I'm sure we've each heard them all.

But here's a really good read about it from the BigSoccer blogs regular Dan Loney. If you haven't read anything from him I highly recommend reading this article and as many older ones as you can. He's hilarious, often crude, and is incredibly smart when it comes to soccer.

As far as the rest of the BigSoccer forums... tread lightly. Some of the worst that humanity can produce lurk in those forums.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

But here's a really good read about it from the BigSoccer blogs regular Dan Loney.

I don't get his logic. The biggest cities have the biggest catchment, and the world over will usually win the honours. He has taken an argument for play offs and/or a draft system and tried to apply it to the pro/rel argument. There is no promotion at the very top of a league. He is ignoring the large number of teams that have been enabled to challenge for the highest title via promotion. Allowing promotion does not mean that a promoted team will win a league, it just means that they will have the opportunity.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

No I think the argument is far more important and full of gray-areas than playoffs and drafts.

About allowing a large number of clubs the opportunity to win.... sure they get the opportunity but it'll never happen considering how the top teams in every other league spend. I mean, wasn't the Premiere League decided weeks before the final match this past season? Doesn't that happen kind of often?

From the Loney article. For those of you who haven't read it, this blurb describes the painfully few champions each major league has had. And the past sentence is the one that sticks out the most to me:

Promotion and relegation has promoted so much competition in Spain that they have had nine separate champions, ever.* Two of those clubs have combined for fifty-four titles.* If Atletico wins the title this season, that will mean the championship has left Real or Barcelona for the fifth time in thirty years.* Scotland – eh, too easy.* There have been as many different English champions as there have been World Series winners – 23.* Except the Football League had a 22 year head start, and for a long time there were only 16 major league teams, but other than that.* There have been 16 different champions of Italy, and 19 different Super Bowl winners.* But the Super Bowl has been around since 1898, while the Italian championship has only been awarded since 1967, so…oh, wait, no, other way around.* Meanwhile, German football has been a citadel of equality and opportunity by European standards.* The Bundesliga has been around since 1963, and they’ve had twelve different champions.* And more than half the time, it hasn’t even been Bayern Munich.* The NBA has been around since 1950, and has been known to have a dynasty or two along the way – yet they’ve managed to crown 15 different teams since 1963.* (Sorry for ignoring you, Sacramento and Atlanta fans, but I don’t think you were following your teams when they won in the 50′s, what with them being two or three moves away from their current home at the time.)* There’s a word for the theory that Boston Red Sox fans, after Bobby Valentine crapped up the AL East in 2012, would have preferred AAA ball to winning the World Series in 2013, and that word is “wrong.”

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

Sorry, I'm still not seeing how the number of title winners is relevant to Pro/rel.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Well your argument was that pro/rel makes it so everybody has a chance at the title. But that doesn't happen so why even do it?

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

Well your argument was that pro/rel makes it so everybody has a chance at the title. But that doesn't happen so why even do it?

It does happen. Only Arsenal have never been relegated from the top flight.

 

[aygov]

It does happen. Only Arsenal have never been relegated from the top flight.

4th place is a hell of a drug....

I think, had the MLS been constructed with relegation built in, then this wouldn't be a problem. As it is relegating a club from the MLS would be like relegating a PL club to league one, if not straight out of league play. How many teams currently in the PL would be able to cope with that?

Pro/Rel would be something that would be nice to have as an added dynamic, but is it necessary? I don't think it is.

 

[Grannyknot]

Its true that relegating an MLS side could have devastating effects, but that is only when you consider the current state of US 2nd tier (NASL) soccer. There is no tv contract, hardly any investment is made into teams, very low attendance (for most teams)....all because there is absolutely nothing to play for.

If you gave NASL promotion, people would invest in the clubs, attendance would go up, maybe even a tv contract would emerge. At that point, you have financial stability within NASL, creating a much softer landing for a relegated MLS side.

 

[aygov]

Its true that relegating an MLS side could have devastating effects, but that is only when you consider the current state of US 2nd tier (NASL) soccer. There is no tv contract, hardly any investment is made into teams, very low attendance (for most teams)....all because there is absolutely nothing to play for.

If you gave NASL promotion, people would invest in the clubs, attendance would go up, maybe even a tv contract would emerge. At that point, you have financial stability within NASL, creating a much softer landing for a relegated MLS side.

Are people really going to flock to NASL because the teams suddenly have a chance of getting in to the MLS? I just don't see that as being a huge driver behind making the NASL popular and a reasonable place to relegate MLS teams.

 

[BrewKnurd]

It does happen. Only Arsenal have never been relegated from the top flight.

Apparently even mighty arsenal was relegated in 1913. Or at least so wikipedia tells me. I don't claim to be an english football historian.

I question the sanity of any owner in a single tier league that agrees to a pro/rel system.

Does anyone know, are there any examples of recent (say 20 years) sports leagues adding a pro/rel structure? It strikes me as something that, in the current money driven sports environment, that if you don't already have it, you ain't ever gonna have it. There's no motivation for top tier owners to accept a premise where they might have to drop down.

 

[Grannyknot]

Are people really going to flock to NASL because the teams suddenly have a chance of getting in to the MLS? I just don't see that as being a huge driver behind making the NASL popular and a reasonable place to relegate MLS teams.

Didn't mean to insinuate that a NASL team was gonna fill a 50k seater stadium if P/R comes about, but you can't tell me there won't be significantly more interest in the league.

 

[aygov]

Didn't mean to insinuate that a NASL team was gonna fill a 50k seater stadium if P/R comes about, but you can't tell me there won't be significantly more interest in the league.

I don't doubt that there would be. I just think it's going to take that plus a number of other factors to make the NASL a place that won't turn any MLS team relegated to it into a Leeds.

Brewknurd has a valid point about the financial situation regarding footy now versus 100 years ago.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Well first of all there can't be any talk whatsoever of pro/rel until MLS caps the number. And even then, NASL and USL Pro would need to cap. And even then still, there are a myriad of other issues that need to be dealt with.

In my humble opinion, pro/rel will not happen in any of our lifetimes. Maybe it can be brought to the table when the current pyramid layout is getting closer to the century mark.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

Well, just to reiterate, I said at the beginning that pro/rel would not be suitable for MLS at this time. I just thought that the article Reno linked to about the significance of pro/rel on who wins a title was a load of bollocks.

 

[aygov]

Looks like it's going be be an all Madrid Champions League final...

 

[Grannyknot]

Poor Chelsea.....




said nobody. ever.

 

[aygov]

Maureen can stuff his bus parking tactics up his trumpet. I'm glad it prevailed against the Scousers over the weekend, but generally he plays some terrible football and shouldn't be rewarded for it.