The Best Wort Chiller

[mesita]

Thanks for the input! Tried a CFC, but overkill for my small batch in the kitchen. One of my other goals is to cut down on how long brewing a batch takes. The smaller batch sizes I'm doing now is really just to help with that: boil faster, chill faster, less equipment, clean up faster, etc. It sure ain't because I want to drink less beer! If I don't have to break out the pump, all the better. I can agitate the wort for 5-10 minutes the old fashioned way.

Haven't tried a plate chiller. I've read plenty about the difficulty of ensuring their sanitized, and a few things here and there about folks just gravity-feeding them instead of actually pumping stuff through, which means you get the temp you get on the other side. Right now I chill until the thermometer slows to a crawl, and then do exactly what you first suggested: transfer to the fermenter and let my fridge do the rest of the work. It just means I have to come back and pitch yeast when the temp is low enough. I like to get it over with. If you're the yeast, waiting for 4 hours on fresh wort to chill before dinner sounds cruel and unusual...

Thanks again for your help!

 

[JaDeDBrewing]

Howdy! I've started brewing smaller batches in an Anvil Brewing 5.5G kettle. 12" diameter (but probably lose an inch or so due to the thermometer and pickup tubes), and 3G of wort make it to a height of ~6.5". I also do the occasional larger batch 5-7G or so in a much larger kettle.

I'm torn between trying to squeeze a Hydra into the smaller kettle, and being able to enjoy the faster chill times in my larger batches, or getting a Mantis and dealing with potentially slower times in the larger batches. With displacement in the kettle, the Hydra would probably have 1-2" of coils exposed above a 2.5-3G batch, while the Mantis would be fully submerged, but with less surface area. On a plus, I've got a full 90 PSI coming out of my 5/8" garden spigot for this.

I'm being a pain, I get it - I've been through 4 chillers as I've changed equipment and batch sizes, and I would love to get one I could use all the time! To throw another loop at you, I live in South Florida, and my groundwater can get as high as 85F. My dog won't even drink it, and looks at my fridge with an actual puppy face begging for me to be merciful...

So, what do you think? Hydra or Mantis? Or forget about chilling this stuff quickly and develop a taste for hot wort soup? Anything special I can do to get around the pickup tube and thermo issue with the bigger chiller? I'd cry if I had to lose those.

Thanks in advance!

Mike

Hey Mike,

Please check your clearance for your thermometer and dip tube (from the back of the kettle) for both of your kettles and send them to us. We have several ways to accommodate different kettle set-ups.

Also, for anyone having to deal with ground water that high in temp, we recommend using the Hydra or King Cobra and this pump. If you add 12lbs of ice cubes or crushed ice to 5 gallons of tap water (give the water a stir a few times as the ice melts). Run the Hydra off of your garden hose spigot for 3 minutes (3.5 minutes for the King Cobra), then switch over to the pump and ice water and run the bucket dry (don't recirculate the ice water, just run it through once). You should be at pitching temps (upper 60s) in about 5-6 minutes total chilling time (for 5 gallons of boiling wort) with ground water as high as 82 F degrees (make sure that you are stirring the wort during chilling) and following our "Optimize Your Chiller" section of our webpage.

If your squeezing smaller batches in that kettle and worried about to much loss to displacement of an immersion, why not use a CFC chiller or Plate chiller? Recirculate the wort through the CFC/Plate chiller back to the kettle to get the temp down as cool as you can get it (dependent on your ground water temp) and then transfer to ferementor and let your temp control you have set to drop the wort temp down to pitching temps. As long as the temp is below 100F before transferring to fermentor, there is no risk of "off flavors" (look for threads on DMS from water droplets from steam dripping back into the wort that could produce off flavors) occurring while the Wort chills further in a sealed sanitized fermentor until it reaches pitching temps, even if it sits over night.

There are also quite a few users that just use a "no chill" process by just just turning off the heat to their kettle and letting their wort cool down on it's own using ambient air and having success, others put their small kettles into an ice bath and stir their wort with a sanitized spoon until it chills down as well.

There are a lot of different options you could use.

There is not going to be any wort loss from wort displacement by an IC. However, there will be wort losses from a pump and plate chiller or CFC. Plate chillers perform at their optimal speed and efficiency when used in a single pass setup. In fact, when we were testing a 'high end' 40 plate chiller in a re-circulation setup, the Hydra was about twice as fast at chilling, and once you take cleaning time into consideration, the Hydra ends up being faster by a very large margin. As for CFCs, there is not a CFC on the market that can match the speed of the Hydra. Again, we tested multiple CFCs, multiple times, and had them setup in the fastest possible configuration for the given product, and the Hydra was always faster.

As for leaving 100 degree F wort in a fermentor, a few hours is not a big deal, but overnight is a bit much and seems risky since you are not sterilizing the container with the boiling wort as with no chill and there will be a lot more head space. The no chill containers are specifically designed so that there is minimal head space to limit the air in the container and again, all the air in the container is going to have been exposed to 200F+ degree wort so there is much less of a chance for any bugs to take hold. That being said, if it works for you and you're happy with it, then that is all that matters.

 

[wobdee]

Any plans to make stainless chillers?

 

[JaDeDBrewing]

Any plans to make stainless chillers?

Great question! Not currently, the main reasons are:

1) Copper is a better heat conductor than stainless steel

2) The copper that we use has been certified by the EPA as antimicrobial (99.9% kill rate in 8hrs in dry contact situation, i.e. when stored) and stainless steel has not.

3) Stainless steel pressure connections need to be TIG welded in order to have a comparable longevity to a soldered copper connection, and TIG welding is very expensive.

That being said, we will be looking into the possibility more in the future, but we have a very long way to go (the testing alone will take months, not to mention the suppliers that need to be vetted and parts sourced) AND even after all that, they might not be a viable product (if it cost $300 for a SS Hydra that is slower than the $160 copper version, we don't see many people jumping at that). Also, the copper we use for our chillers should have no issue lasting for decades, since it has been used without issue in housing applications and lasted for 50+ years.

 

[Indian_villager]

Great question! Not currently, the main reasons are:

1) Copper is a better heat conductor than stainless steel

The difference in thermal conductivity might start making a notable difference at flow rates that are generating high Reynold's numbers. For the purposes of a homebrewer the transfer limitation comes from the low film coefficients (usually on the wort side) from having a low flow rate over the transfer surface.

 

[JaDeDBrewing]

The difference in thermal conductivity might start making a notable difference at flow rates that are generating high Reynold's numbers. For the purposes of a homebrewer the transfer limitation comes from the low film coefficients (usually on the wort side) from having a low flow rate over the transfer surface.

If you are using an IC the way we recommend (chilling water fully on, stirring the wort or agitating the chiller), there is definitely enough turbulence on both the inside and outside of the chiller that the thickness and thermal coefficient of the material chosen will have an impact on the speed and water usage of a chiller. We just finished testing a single pass CFC that we changed the interior tube wall thickness from 0.032" to 0.030" and we saw a 4F degree difference between the two (0.032" was 15F degrees above chilling water temp and 0.030" was 11F degrees above chilling water temp) yes, all other variables were accounted for. At that low of a delta T, a 4F degree difference is huge. These seemingly insignificant variables that have rather large impacts on chilling speed are the reason we insist on testing every change in design.

 

[Murphys_Law]

Just ordered a 25" Hydra for my 16 gallon Bayou Classic kettle! This will be a nice upgrade from my original 25" chiller!

 

[Konadog]

Just ordered a 25" Hydra for my 16 gallon Bayou Classic kettle! This will be a nice upgrade from my original 25" chiller!

You'll love the Hydra, works way better than a standard coil type drop in, or a plate chiller IMO (tried them both)

 

[Murphys_Law]

You'll love the Hydra, works way better than a standard coil type drop in, or a plate chiller IMO (tried them both)

I'm really looking forward to getting this new piece of equipment. My kettle is 20" tall and I decided to get the 25" just so I'm not resting right against the rim and I can use the extra length as a "handle" to swirl it around.

I may have a few coils above the water line when I make 5G batches but this will still be WAY better than my current set up!

 

[Konadog]

I have a 15 gallon pot, and the coil just sits below the liquid level.

 

[MagicMatt]

Forgive me if this has been covered, but I didn't see anyone questioning the claim of "fastest chilling" when compared to a CFC. I don't see how the claim of being faster than my current CFC can hold true.

My current chilling process is to open my kettle valve and turn on my hose faucet. That's it. I walk away, and come back in about 6 or 7 minutes at which time I have a full fermenter of <70°F wort.

With the process you are describing for these Jaded chillers, I have to put the chiller into the kettle, turn on the faucet, and then stand there for the next 5-10 minutes stirring the wort? And then still have to transfer to the kettle?

What am I missing? How can that process be any quicker or more effective or efficient than the one I currently employ?

 

[BeardedBrews]

What am I missing? How can that process be any quicker or more effective or efficient than the one I currently employ?

Some suggest that the big difference is in the bulk temperature of the wort during the chilling process. With an IC you drop the temperature of the full wort volume, meaning everything is under 150 in the first minute or two, and under 100 in a few minutes. For the CFC -> fermentor approach the wort in the kettle stays hot for that entire 6-7 minutes.


If you have a system that is easy and effective for you, I doubt anyone would suggest you change it. I know many people stick with the CFC approach because it is a compact, clean, and easy to integrate into a brew stand. The claims on speed from Jaded are based on pretty solid data, I don't doubt their performance, but 1-2 minutes faster is not worth making your brew day more complicated.

 

[MagicMatt]

Thanks for the reply. I understand what you mean now. I didn't think it was that big of a deal to have the "bulk" of the wort at a higher temp for those extra minutes. For me at least, the wort still in the kettle never drops below 195°F, and I thought the "danger zone" is below 180°F. Perhaps the claim in the OP is best geared towards people already using an IC rather than a CFC, and that would make sense.

 

[schematix]

I used to do recirculating cool down with my plate chiller. Performance was great for the first few minutes, then it would clog to a stop.

Switched to the hydra and it is very nearly the same performance. Now I don't have to worry about clogging, and I can be sure i leave more break and hop material in the kettle.

Best part is now cleaning is 5 minutes instead of 45.

 

[HLSheppard]

Thanks for the reply. I understand what you mean now. I didn't think it was that big of a deal to have the "bulk" of the wort at a higher temp for those extra minutes. For me at least, the wort still in the kettle never drops below 195°F, and I thought the "danger zone" is below 180°F. Perhaps the claim in the OP is best geared towards people already using an IC rather than a CFC, and that would make sense.

Don't forget the aspect of cleanup as well. With an IC - you hose it off and you're done. I have both a CFC and a Jaded Hydra and I have no complaints with either's performance. However, I can say that it's a heckuva lot easier to hose of my IC vs the PBW / Rinse / drain of the CFC.

As far as cooling - with my groundwater temps (mid-50's) I can cool a 5 gallon batch in 3:43 with my Hydra (while stirring) vs. maybe 5-6 minutes (depending on flow rate) with my CFC. Both pretty darned respectable in my book.

As in all things - YMMV.

 

[jabba11]

I have a hydra as well and can attetst that I don't think youll find a better IC

 

[jabba11]

Forgive me if this has been covered, but I didn't see anyone questioning the claim of "fastest chilling" when compared to a CFC. I don't see how the claim of being faster than my current CFC can hold true.

My current chilling process is to open my kettle valve and turn on my hose faucet. That's it. I walk away, and come back in about 6 or 7 minutes at which time I have a full fermenter of <70°F wort.

With the process you are describing for these Jaded chillers, I have to put the chiller into the kettle, turn on the faucet, and then stand there for the next 5-10 minutes stirring the wort? And then still have to transfer to the kettle?

What am I missing? How can that process be any quicker or more effective or efficient than the one I currently employ?

not if you have a RIMS system. Also the hydra CAN chill that fast provided the water temp is appropriate. I have twenty gallon pot so in this pick the hydra is only maybe 1/2 in there since I'm doing a 6 gallon batch. With my regular 12 gallon its fully submerged. Even with only half in it chilled this 6 gallons to 72 (which was water temp from the spigot) in about 10 mins. 12 gallons in winter here (60 degree water) it can chill to pitch in about 10 mins Id say. I'm not knocking cfc or plate, they are effective as well and its proven. I like an IC for convenience sake and it works simply and effectively. Even if a cfc or plate cooled it say 5 mins faster Id probably still use an IC for simplicity sake.

 

[MagicMatt]

Not trying to knock those that use an IC, but I have used both an IC and CFC and the CFC wins on many levels in my book. I know everyone has different ideas and processes and that's fine. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything obvious.

The way I see it, with all external variables the same (i.e. source water is the same temp) there should no difference in the temperature of the final wort. What it comes down to for me is time. Let's say it does take just as long to chill a batch with a CFC as it does with a IC. Well with an IC I'd still have to transfer to the carboy in a separate step, whereas the CFC does it all in one fell swoop. I don't have to stand there stirring the wort in the kettle or keep an eye on the temp so I know when to stop chilling and start transferring. I just open the kettle valve and go pour myself a beer.

 

[jabba11]

ya I don't think anyone is "knocking" anything here. I know a CFC works. It works for you and even moreso your system. We are talking minutes here not 40 mins to have a beer etc. I don't sit and watch mine either, it has a digital readout I can see it wherever I am in the room etc. I also don't stir mine but I am also whirlpooling while its chilling. When its time (at pitch temp) I simply shut off the pump and switch to the conical and turn the pump on (takes maybe 5 seconds). Some guys use a 3 way valve and don't even bother doing that. In some ways its whats most efficient for your system as well. I don't have to clean the inside of the CFC or worry about whats inside it (I would cause that me LOL). A plate is a different thing I don't see myself ever wanting one but lots of guys use em and love em too.

 

[Murphys_Law]

I'm looking at picking up an Anvil 10g kettle. Anyone know offhand of there is enough room for the hydra ? Worried about temp probe.

 

[thereverendmaynard]

My current chill times for ~ 12 gallons is running around 27 minutes to go from 212 to upper 70's ... with a clear drop in performance as I get to 70. I have 52f water year round. This is using a 50ft immersion. Any thoughts on timings I could expect with the Hydra? THis is in a 20g blichman using a whirlpool arm/pump.

 

[schematix]

My current chill times for ~ 12 gallons is running around 27 minutes to go from 212 to upper 70's ... with a clear drop in performance as I get to 70. I have 52f water year round. This is using a 50ft immersion. Any thoughts on timings I could expect with the Hydra? THis is in a 20g blichman using a whirlpool arm/pump.

Took me 16 mins to get to 89 with 74F tap water so you'd be looking at similar

 

[jabba11]

My current chill times for ~ 12 gallons is running around 27 minutes to go from 212 to upper 70's ... with a clear drop in performance as I get to 70. I have 52f water year round. This is using a 50ft immersion. Any thoughts on timings I could expect with the Hydra? THis is in a 20g blichman using a whirlpool arm/pump.

52 water year round? Lucky LOL.. Id say 8-12 mins max. That's my experience. I agree that once it gets below 80 or so it starts to slow down. First drops are dramatic though mine usually goes from 210 to 150ish in maybe a minute or two

 

[jabba11]

I'm looking at picking up an Anvil 10g kettle. Anyone know offhand of there is enough room for the hydra ? Worried about temp probe.

I have a blichman 12 gallon that it fits in. I don't know if that helps or not