That German Lager taste

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In that videointerview he mentioned explicitly that they first remove nearly all hardness and alkalinity from the water (by which exact process I think he does not explain), and then they add back just what they need, in the right quantity for the given beer style. He mentioned using mostly CaCl2 for that. So the law must somehow allow them to add at least some brewing salts to their water?

Yes, you're right, it's not true that no minerals may be added. Some are allowed (e.g. CaCl2, CaSO4), others aren't (e.g. zinc). It seems that the preparation of brewing water is rather liberal (considering you may not add CO2 to the finished beer).

The Vorläufiges Biergesetz actually only refers to the "Trinkwasserverordnung" (regulation for drinking water), which in turn refers to a curated list of substances (as well as maximum amounts) that may be added. It appears there's no special regulation for brewing liquor. Which is odd, considering that this would imply, among other things, that hydrochloric acid was allowed, while (as we all know) lactic acid isn't.

Apologies if I'm being dense, I don't have any insight into the professional brewing world, I merely looked at the laws that I could find online.
 
I really do not think Weihenstephan brews high gravity and then dilutes (and I'm not even sure if in Germany breweries are allowed to do that?)

I recall reading somewhere (possibly here?) that high-gravity + dilution brewing is common in Germany when brewing Weissbier.

Unfortunately, I can't supply a name or a link, so my comment is next to useless. However, does it ring a bell for anyone else?
 
I recall reading somewhere (possibly here?) that high-gravity + dilution brewing is common in Germany when brewing Weissbier.

Unfortunately, I can't supply a name or a link, so my comment is next to useless. However, does it ring a bell for anyone else?

Can't say it does, but it does seem plausible since this technique should increase the ester content iirc? For a fruit-forward, ester-driven Weißbier (such as Gutmann, for example) that might be desirable. Probably not for the more phenolic ones like Schneider Weiße.
 
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I do that constantly with different beers, not just Weissbiers, where I want to elevate the ester profile.
Won't say it makes a huge change, but a subtle difference is there.
It's easy to screw the hopping with this technique, though. I've found that after the post-fermenting dilution not every hop behaves equal. The thing is probably not so much with bitterness calculation (it's easy to pre-calculate beforehand) as with aromatic volatiles dilution.
 
I feel like this approach of "start with a couple of basic steps which are easy to integrate" is in conflict to some presentations of LODO I have seen here and elsewhere. It is often posited that there was some threshold of DO that you may not exceed, and that you don't get much (any?) benefit if you're just brewing "low-ish oxygen".

I feel like this sort of "hard LODO" position is partly responsible for some of the negative reactions to LODO. Of course, that doesn't affect the truth value of said position.
I challnge the idea that lodo is in any way responsible for “that German flavor” because let’s face it - that German flavor is not new. But the whole idea of lodo is. The oldest German brewery, Weihenstephaner, claims to have been in continuous operation since 1040 ad. We were also all drinking German beers 40 years ago and they pretty much had the same flavor then. There were no papers on low oxygen brewing then and homebrewers certainly weren’t talking about it then. Does anybody have any evidence that any of these German breweries were following any kind of low oxygen brewing in the 1970s? Sorry, I don’t think so
 
I see your point but I think you are coming from a place of guessing more than knowing. Were you drinking beer at W. 40 years ago? I would guess the beer did taste different compared to today's W. output. Obviously the large German breweries saw value in upgrading their processes as they are all low oxygen these days. Probably to improve the overseas travel of their products.

There is an inherent level of low oxygen in larger brew systems to begin with compared to homebrew sized systems. Then on top of that there are the steps that mainly only the German breweries have researched and taken over the last 40+ years like milling under no-oxygen conditions. Then there is the approach of de-aerating all of the brewing water which is largely a German brewing technique.

So the German breweries are leading the charge so to speak with eliminating oxygen in the hot side of the brewing process. It does affect the final flavor of beers. Even if some homebrewers decide not to use the technique. It is there is one wants to use it but denying it does not make sense.
 
I think it is highly attributable to using sauergut for acidification. When will then Home Brew suppliers offer this as an ingredient??? I may have to set up my own reactor one of these days... We need this in 16 oz cans!

acid.JPG
 
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I think it highly depends on what one means with "that German flavour". It is entirely possible that the certain flavour that some people connect with German lagers has nothing at all to do with low oxygen whatever. Sauergut would be one of these possibilities.
 
I think it is highly attributable to using sauergut for acidification. When will then Home Brew suppliers offer this as an ingredient??? I may have to set up my own reactor one of these days... We need this in 16 oz cans!

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@Bassman2003 has this video on YouTube. I’ve done it before and it works.


I recently tried doing it again and I don’t know what happened, but it didn’t sour like my first batch.
I didn’t use it in the mash, but added it towards the end of the boil and I do think it gave me a little of the flavor I was hoping for, if that’s the “flavor” this thread is about.
 
It’s funny, a bunch of us were just talking about this at our last homebrew club meeting. This is going to be long, just putting that out in advance.

One of our club guys suggested a few months ago that we should have a competition and challenged us all to brew a German Pils. Our local examples are Victory Prima Pils and Troegs Sunshine Pils, both very good beers. When it came to this meeting and everybody was supposed to bring their beers, only 3 of us had brewed it. So it ended up not being a competition per se, but we poured and talked about the beers.

Then as guys will do, especially after a couple beers, we went off and started talking about German beers and how good they were and how for many of us a German beer was one of or the first beer we ever enjoyed.

I grew up in Phila. Our local breweries when I was a kid were pretty much Schmidt’s and Ortliebs. I lived within an easy walk, maybe a mile from the Schmidt’s brewery. Nobody we knew drank Schmidt’s. Everybody said it was headache beer, you always got a headache from it. My best friend’s father bought Ortlieb’s in bottles. My dad always bought Carling Black Label, whether it was because it was cheap or because he liked it - I don’t know. But my dad worked for a can company in Phila that made cans for soda companies like Canada Dry and a bunch of other things, so he always bought beer in cans.

We were like 15 and we would take bottles or cans every so often and hope they never noticed. We would drink them but never really liked them. Then one of my other friend’s dads got a case of St. Pauli Girl and we got hold of a couple of those. We’re talking probably 1977. And we just couldn’t believe how good that beer was, how it was SO different. That was the first for me.

When I got to drinking age, I bought alot of St. Pauli Girl. Later I found Becks was pretty much the same thing at the time. Then I found even cheaper German beers like Warsteiner were still great and better than most American beers we’d had at the time.

From the time I was a kid I never liked Budweiser. As a young man I refused to drink Budweiser even when it was free at parties. I did like other products they made like Busch which was somehow different and at the time Michelob which was the premium beer in a fancy bottle with a gold foil top. I discovered though that I liked most of what Miller made better than I liked most of what AB made. I liked High Life back then and I still buy it today.

I think now its because Budweiser uses rice where the others use corn and I prefer the corn to the rice. Then we’d try stuff like Old Milwaukee which wasn’t terrible and then that was made by Strohs so of course we’d try Strohs.
But nothing was as good as those German beers.

Later we had a restaurant here called Bennigans that had a program where you could get to try 100 beers from around the world. You signed up and got a card and after you tried 100 beers they gave you a gold pint glass. I got 3 of them. But I think that was where I did alot of exploring beer and learning about beer and different beer styles from different places and that program paved the way for me to become a homebrewer and start brewing.

But there is something to this idea of German beers being so different and so good. Some of it in part is probably inherent to larger scale brewing - they don’t syphon beer between tanks with a racking cane and tubing. They transfer in what is thought of as a closed transfer. Something like that could be in line with low oxygen but if there is a pump involved, does a pump not also introduce oxygen? Germany is also a much older country than the US. I saw this over and over again when I was in the navy, other countries we’d visit. Rome and the Collesium and the Vatican. Mexico and the Mayan pyramids. The narrow and crooked streets of pretty much any place in Europe.

It all speaks to how young of a country we are comparatively. They’ve just been doing it so much longer. And Germany never had Prohibition where their breweries were all shut down for 15 or 18 years or whatever it was. Plus they have strict laws around brewing where they don’t use corn or rice or a number of things our breweries do. They are not making hazy beers on purpose either.

Now all that said, I still go in cycles - there are times I want to brew and drink American style beers, there are times I want to brew and drink British style beers and mostly I just buy German beer.
 
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There is no 'one thing' but in fact employing all best practices to the process is key. Ingredients, hot side, yeast management and health, oxygenation, fermentation parameters, cold side handling, packaging, care and storage. All of these things need to be correct if you are aiming for something that tastes German.

Low oxygen adherents have always said the same yet only that one part seems to be controversial. The only reason we talk a lot on that topic is it was the most glaring thing in the German brewing literature that craft brewers and homebrewers had for years missed or ignored.
 
The sauergut is part of some of the beers, but not all German lagers have this flavor as prominent as others. Weyermann sauergut is probably used a lot and we can get this but the package is large and costs about $190. But it does impart the "grape" flavor many of us have found in some German lagers.

Low Oxygen is not a flavor per se but a cleanliness to the flavor or absence of most all oxidation flavors. German yeast plays a part as well as German malts. I think German brewing process is the hidden reason along with the ingredient/yeast flavors all coming together. Some of the famous Belgian breweries are very advanced and follow low oxygen, clean brewing processes. But their beers taste like they are from Belgium. Tricky to pinpoint it.
 
So what about the decoction mash? Are they still doing that? Timely, as this month’s BYO just arrived and has a big cover article about mashing techniques, mash thickness, and decoction mashing.
 
So what about the decoction mash? Are they still doing that? Timely, as this month’s BYO just arrived and has a big cover article about mashing techniques, mash thickness, and decoction mashing.
Some do, some don't. Weihenstephan for example uses it on a few or their beers and not others as taste expectations demand. Decoction was more prevalent in the past but a lot of the bigger breweries have moved on mostly for energy savings.
 
It’s funny, a bunch of us were just talking about this at our last homebrew club meeting. This is going to be long, just putting that out in advance.

One of our club guys suggested a few months ago that we should have a competition and challenged us all to brew a German Pils. Our local examples are Victory Prima Pils and Troegs Sunshine Pils, both very good beers. When it came to this meeting and everybody was supposed to bring their beers, only 3 of us had brewed it. So it ended up not being a competition per se, but we poured and talked about the beers.

Then as guys will do, especially after a couple beers, we went off and started talking about German beers and how good they were and how for many of us a German beer was one of or the first beer we ever enjoyed.

I grew up in Phila. Our local breweries when I was a kid were pretty much Schmidt’s and Ortliebs. I lived within an easy walk, maybe a mile from the Schmidt’s brewery. Nobody we knew drank Schmidt’s. Everybody said it was headache beer, you always got a headache from it. My best friend’s father bought Ortlieb’s in bottles. My dad always bought Carling Black Label, whether it was because it was cheap or because he liked it - I don’t know. But my dad worked for a can company in Phila that made cans for soda companies like Canada Dry and a bunch of other things, so he always bought beer in cans.

We were like 15 and we would take bottles or cans every so often and hope they never noticed. We would drink them but never really liked them. Then one of my other friend’s dads got a case of St. Pauli Girl and we got hold of a couple of those. We’re talking probably 1977. And we just couldn’t believe how good that beer was, how it was SO different. That was the first for me.

When I got to drinking age, I bought alot of St. Pauli Girl. Later I found Becks was pretty much the same thing at the time. Then I found even cheaper German beers like Warsteiner were still great and better than most American beers we’d had at the time.

From the time I was a kid I never liked Budweiser. As a young man I refused to drink Budweiser even when it was free at parties. I did like other products they made like Busch which was somehow different and at the time Michelob which was the premium beer in a fancy bottle with a gold foil top. I discovered though that I liked most of what Miller made better than I liked most of what AB made. I liked High Life back then and I still buy it today.

I think now its because Budweiser uses rice where the others use corn and I prefer the corn to the rice. Then we’d try stuff like Old Milwaukee which wasn’t terrible and then that was made by Strohs so of course we’d try Strohs.
But nothing was as good as those German beers.

Later we had a restaurant here called Bennigans that had a program where you could get to try 100 beers from around the world. You signed up and got a card and after you tried 100 beers they gave you a gold pint glass. I got 3 of them. But I think that was where I did alot of exploring beer and learning about beer and different beer styles from different places and that program paved the way for me to become a homebrewer and start brewing.

But there is something to this idea of German beers being so different and so good. Some of it in part is probably inherent to larger scale brewing - they don’t syphon beer between tanks with a racking cane and tubing. They transfer in what is thought of as a closed transfer. Something like that could be in line with low oxygen but if there is a pump involved, does a pump not also introduce oxygen? Germany is also a much older country than the US. I saw this over and over again when I was in the navy, other countries we’d visit. Rome and the Collesium and the Vatican. Mexico and the Mayan pyramids. The narrow and crooked streets of pretty much any place in Europe.

It all speaks to how young of a country we are comparatively. They’ve just been doing it so much longer. And Germany never had Prohibition where their breweries were all shut down for 15 or 18 years or whatever it was. Plus they have strict laws around brewing where they don’t use corn or rice or a number of things our breweries do. They are not making hazy beers on purpose either.

Now all that said, I still go in cycles - there are times I want to brew and drink American style beers, there are times I want to brew and drink British style beers and mostly I just buy German beer.
>>Our local examples are Victory Prima Pils and Troegs Sunshine Pils, both very good beers.<<

I was at the brewery some while ago when the were pouring Sunshine Pils, which was a pilot test brew. I immediately fell in love at first sip. It broke my heart when they said there weren’t any plans to put it in bottles or cans. My reply was that I’d buy out their entire production if they did.

Fast forward to today, I was a little hyperbolic, but now that they brew and release it, at least seasonally, I’m a frequent purchaser on those occasions when I do actually buy beer. I agree, it’s a very enjoyable pils.
 
One of the biggest issues with trying to replicate that true German lager character here in the US is malt freshness. Often times the German malt we’re using has traveled a long ways and sat somewhere for an extended period of time before we get a chance to use it. I attribute a lot of that grapey character (or lack thereof) to malt freshness. I actually think you’re more likely to get that specific character from fresh American Pilsner malt than older imported German malts. However other malt characteristics will surely be different.
 
One of the biggest issues with trying to replicate that true German lager character here in the US is malt freshness. Often times the German malt we’re using has traveled a long ways and sat somewhere for an extended period of time before we get a chance to use it. I attribute a lot of that grapey character (or lack thereof) to malt freshness. I actually think you’re more likely to get that specific character from fresh American Pilsner malt than older imported German malts. However other malt characteristics will surely be different.

Certainly malt that is not fresh won't make the best beer. However, I don't think the grapey flavor is a side effect of stale malt. I have detected it in some of my homebrews as well as purchased commercial German beers that were not stale themselves. All of the German malt (Weyermann) used in my homebrews came from a LHBS that turns over a lot of malt. They buy their malt from a local wholesaler/importer that also supplies most of the brewpubs and micros in the area. I taste it before I buy it and it's fresh.

I don't know what the grapey flavor source is but I tend to think it is part of either the barley or malt profile itself.
 
Brewing a truly good German lager is a journey. Mimicking macro procedures as much as possible is key. Because of our scale we have to hack certain parts of the hotside and the coldside has to be on point.

Fermenting under pressure and filtering needs to be taken into account as well as the breweries house version of Sauergut to begin to match flavors. That means hotside procedures have to be accounted for upfront, before pitching. Execution needs to be like clockwork to consistently kick out a truly great tasting German lager. Even though they are brewed on an industrial scale, they are brewed with impressive exacting precision and that makes it a tall order on a small scale at home. Anyone that really persues real German lager has my respect.
 
I think he meant the opposite - fresh malt brings the grape flavors.

OK, maybe I misunderstood his reply but I have only sensed that grapey background note in German beers that I knew were brewed with German malts. The quest continues.
 
I am still trying different German lager yeasts to settle on what I want. Once I do, I would like to try a helles with North American Pils just to see. Fresh could be a big factor or not enough to mimic continental malts.
 
In reference to the grape flavors: I noticed this in my maibock recently. Specifically when I drank it with food. The first time it hit me, I was drinking it with some seasoned pretzel bite things, and it came across almost like white grape juice. It's a dead simple recipe too: pilsner, Munich 2, hall mit, wyeast 2206.
 
I think it is highly attributable to using sauergut for acidification. When will then Home Brew suppliers offer this as an ingredient??? I may have to set up my own reactor one of these days... We need this in 16 oz cans!

View attachment 827618
I think with things like the kegland PCO fittings and the OXEBAR kegs it finally has gotten cheap enough to have a dedicated vessel, pull some out for use in brew, dose back some wort from the kettle before hops and keep an almost solera type setup going.
 
In reference to @Bassman2003 video on making sauergut:



Are you using the 16- or 23-quart pressure cooker?

These are the items I would have to purchase - about $400 + shipping, which is ok - but is there a cheaper method?

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I have a 16 quart Presto Pressure cooker/canner. Fits 7 normal large Mason jars. You can find these used or at thrift stores for less money.
I purchased a Auag Sous Vide from Amazon for $36. I do not see that brand anymore but they have some that are similar ($49)
https://www.amazon.com/Vpcok-Direct...ide&qid=1693587621&sprefix=auag,aps,91&sr=8-3
The small Foodsaver Freshsaver was only $19.99, so I do not know what is up with that price! You will need to go to Ebay for decent pricing.
 
In reference to @Bassman2003 video on making sauergut:



Are you using the 16- or 23-quart pressure cooker?

These are the items I would have to purchase - about $400 + shipping, which is ok - but is there a cheaper method?


As was mentioned in the video pressure sanitizing the jars isn't necessary but you will want to sanitize them well if not.

You can also rig a crockpot or some other electric cooker into a waterbath with an inkbird for temp control. Make a little cone hat top from reflectix for more clearance inside.

Using a small tubing (think fish tank line) connected to your CO2 supply you can carefully purge the headspace with the lids on but just lifted a little on one side to slip the tube in there. The idea here is to displace the oxygen then pull the tube, plop the lid in place and screw down the cap. The idea being when the CO2 goes into solution that will automatically create a vacuum under the cap.

There is no one perfect way so have fun and use your imagination.
 
Certainly malt that is not fresh won't make the best beer. However, I don't think the grapey flavor is a side effect of stale malt. I have detected it in some of my homebrews as well as purchased commercial German beers that were not stale themselves. All of the German malt (Weyermann) used in my homebrews came from a LHBS that turns over a lot of malt. They buy their malt from a local wholesaler/importer that also supplies most of the brewpubs and micros in the area. I taste it before I buy it and it's fresh.

I don't know what the grapey flavor source is but I tend to think it is part of either the barley or malt profile itself.

Now this is entirely anecdotal, but from what I've read and heard (e.g. Jeff Alworth), there aren't a lot of German breweries that choose Weyermann for their base malts. Not even in Bamberg, no.
Sadly, it's very hard to buy on a homebrew scale from maltsters other than Weyermann or Bestmalz, even inside Germany.
 
Now this is entirely anecdotal, but from what I've read and heard (e.g. Jeff Alworth), there aren't a lot of German breweries that choose Weyermann for their base malts. Not even in Bamberg, no.
Sadly, it's very hard to buy on a homebrew scale from maltsters other than Weyermann or Bestmalz, even inside Germany.


I find it difficult to believe that a company such as Weyermann could stay in business for the last 140 years without having a base of commercial brewing customers in Germany. Selling a 25kg bag occasionally to a small percentage of North American homebrewers isn't going to cut it.
 
I find it difficult to believe that a company such as Weyermann could stay in business for the last 140 years without having a base of commercial brewing customers in Germany. Selling a 25kg bag occasionally to a small percentage of North American homebrewers isn't going to cut it.

I got the impression their domestic sales were mostly specialty malts and Sinamar, an extract used to give beer a dark colour with little to no flavour impact.
But, as I said, anecdotal.
 
I find it difficult to believe that a company such as Weyermann could stay in business for the last 140 years without having a base of commercial brewing customers in Germany. Selling a 25kg bag occasionally to a small percentage of North American homebrewers isn't going to cut it.

They export 90% of their malt, especially base malt. They can get more money for it outside of Germany. They invest a ton of money in the US market especially and have done a great job convincing US brewers that in order to make truly authentic German beer you need to use their products…
 
My LD Carlson rep (take it with a grain of salt) told me that Avangard was the biggest maltster in Germany while Weyermann was in the list of smallest and corroborated the strong U.S. marketing campaign.
 
That supports what I think I know. Avangard and Ireks being the largest supplies of base malts to the larger German breweries. (Outside of their own private operations).
 
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