Table Beer

[Punx Clever]

I've got a crazy idea to try to brew a 2-2.5% beer with flavor and hashed together a plan for a light Belgian-style rye beer. I figure this is a good way to pack a lot of flavor and complexity in such a light beer, while retaining a very refreshing quality.

Rye should give it a bit of body and a spicy kick. Biscuit for a little body and bready flavor. A base of pilsner to keep the whole thing relatively clean.

Mash at 154 so I don't run it into the ground during fermentation.

To avoid over-sparging on such a small grain bill, I plan to sparge until I have about 300 points in the kettle then topping off with water before the boil. I expect I'll probably be there with about 5 gallons in the kettle. To accentuate the malt, I'm using a "Yellow Full" water profile from Bru'n Water.

90 minute boil due to the pilsner base.

Just enough noble hops (could also go with Spalt, etc, no real preferance) to balance it out with about 10 IBUs.

T-58 to provide the Belgian yeast flavors (and, let's be honest, keep the cost down on an experimental 11 gallon batch).

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Tafelbier
Style: Belgian Specialty Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 11.00 gal     
Boil Size: 14.07 gal
Estimated OG: 1.027 SG
Estimated Color: 3.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 9.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 85.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount        Item                                      Type         % or IBU     
7 lbs 8.0 oz  Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)            Grain        75.00 %       
2 lbs         Rye Malt (4.7 SRM)                        Grain        20.00 %       
8.0 oz        Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM)                   Grain        5.00 %       
1.00 oz       Tettnang [4.50 %]  (90 min)               Hops         9.7 IBU       
1 Pkgs        SafBrew Specialty Ale (DCL Yeast #T-58)   Yeast-Ale                 


Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 10.00 lb
----------------------------
Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Medium Body
Step Time     Name               Description                         Step Temp     
30 min        Protein Rest       Add 3.53 gal of water at 130.6 F    122.0 F       
45 min        Saccharification   Heat to 154.0 F over 15 min         154.0 F       
10 min        Mash Out           Heat to 168.0 F over 10 min         168.0 F

Other than the obligatory "why brew a 2.5% beer", does anyone have any suggestions?

I thought about spices but never played with them before and would hate to over-do it. With the right advice, it's certainly a possibility. Since it's an 11 gallon batch going into 2 kegs, I could do one with and one without, assuming infusion in the keg.

Decoction mash is do-able.

Not looking to sour or introduce any long-lasting bug strains.

On the fence about CO2 volumes... I was thinking 3, but even a 4 probably wouldn't be bad.

Fermentation temperature can be whatever. I've got full control there.

Appreciate the help in advance!

 

[dmtaylor]

Looks great. Skip the protein rest. Never do a protein rest in the 21st century. And keep the CO2 down to 2.5 volumes. Other than those couple things, I'd love to taste this beer. Enjoy.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I'll throw in the idea of - if this is the beer you want, why not partigyle it and get a stronger beer out of it at the same time? I'm planning a strong beer to keep until Christmas, but getting a smaller beer out of the second runnings for immediate drinking.

 

[couchsending]

I would dilute first running’s of a bigger beer, you’ll get zero astringency that way and it’ll probably be more flavorful. I’ve found that NaCl additions really help with fullness, as well as a 20-30 minute rest at 160-162. If you’re gonna do a protein rest for maybe a little better head retention aim for 15 minutes at 130-133.

Have you used T-58 before? Unlike most Belgian strains it doesn’t eat Maltotriose so that might actually be a good thing and you might end up with a little more body in a 2.5% Beer. Little beers are the hardest beers to make I think, wish you luck.

Petite Prince from Jester King is 2.9% and well received. Might be interesting to split the batch and age half with some bugs/Brett or just Brett to give it a little more complexity.

 

[Punx Clever]

Looks great. Skip the protein rest. Never do a protein rest in the 21st century. And keep the CO2 down to 2.5 volumes. Other than those couple things, I'd love to taste this beer. Enjoy.

Easy enough to implement both of those in the plan. However, I am concerned about head retention with as little grain as I have to work with in this concept... hence the protein rest.

I'll throw in the idea of - if this is the beer you want, why not partigyle it and get a stronger beer out of it at the same time? I'm planning a strong beer to keep until Christmas, but getting a smaller beer out of the second runnings for immediate drinking.

Availability of fermenters is a prime consideration. I've got a 14 gallon conical, and can fit either a 5 gallon carboy or sixtel keg fermenter in my ferm chamber with the conical. I've been working partigyle brews for two of my last three beers based on this setup, but I also want to get 10 gallons into the kegs to keep the beer flowing.

Also, I feel like I have less control over how the small beer in a partigyle comes out. I want this to be a dedicated brew.

I would dilute first running’s of a bigger beer, you’ll get zero astringency that way and it’ll probably be more flavorful. I’ve found that NaCl additions really help with fullness, as well as a 20-30 minute rest at 160-162. If you’re gonna do a protein rest for maybe a little better head retention aim for 15 minutes at 130-133.

Have you used T-58 before? Unlike most Belgian strains it doesn’t eat Maltotriose so that might actually be a good thing and you might end up with a little more body in a 2.5% Beer. Little beers are the hardest beers to make I think, wish you luck.

Petite Prince from Jester King is 2.9% and well received. Might be interesting to split the batch and age half with some bugs/Brett or just Brett to give it a little more complexity.

Regarding first runnings of a bigger beer: In effect, that's what I would be doing by monitoring the sugar content vs volume in the kettle.

As for salt additions, I'd be shooting for (in PPM): 53 Ca, 3 Mg, 13 Na, 56 Sulf., 71 Chlor., and 16 Bicarb. Actually the same profile used for an outstanding Koelsch not long ago.

No clue on T-58, but reading between the various dry strains it seemed like it was the more forward on flavor profiles.



Appreciate all the suggestions... I promise, I am taking them to heart!

 

[Bassman2003]

Sounds interesting. I would like to know how it turns out!

 

[AzOr]

I love the idea! I like the grain bill you chose.

My only input would be to keep the carb volume below 2. I think the carbonic bite would overwhelm the light beer.

I do an English Mild that I carb between 1.5 - 1.8 and it’s great. I have accidentally over carbed a couple of times and the beer tastes completely different and not in a good way. The abv is around 3.5

 

[divrack]

I've got a crazy idea to try to brew a 2-2.5% beer with flavor and hashed together a plan for a light Belgian-style rye beer. I figure this is a good way to pack a lot of flavor and complexity in such a light beer, while retaining a very refreshing quality.

Rye should give it a bit of body and a spicy kick. Biscuit for a little body and bready flavor. A base of pilsner to keep the whole thing relatively clean.

Mash at 154 so I don't run it into the ground during fermentation.

To avoid over-sparging on such a small grain bill, I plan to sparge until I have about 300 points in the kettle then topping off with water before the boil. I expect I'll probably be there with about 5 gallons in the kettle. To accentuate the malt, I'm using a "Yellow Full" water profile from Bru'n Water.

90 minute boil due to the pilsner base.

Just enough noble hops (could also go with Spalt, etc, no real preferance) to balance it out with about 10 IBUs.

T-58 to provide the Belgian yeast flavors (and, let's be honest, keep the cost down on an experimental 11 gallon batch).

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Tafelbier
Style: Belgian Specialty Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 11.00 gal    
Boil Size: 14.07 gal
Estimated OG: 1.027 SG
Estimated Color: 3.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 9.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 85.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount        Item                                      Type         % or IBU    
7 lbs 8.0 oz  Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)            Grain        75.00 %      
2 lbs         Rye Malt (4.7 SRM)                        Grain        20.00 %      
8.0 oz        Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM)                   Grain        5.00 %      
1.00 oz       Tettnang [4.50 %]  (90 min)               Hops         9.7 IBU      
1 Pkgs        SafBrew Specialty Ale (DCL Yeast #T-58)   Yeast-Ale                


Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 10.00 lb
----------------------------
Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Medium Body
Step Time     Name               Description                         Step Temp    
30 min        Protein Rest       Add 3.53 gal of water at 130.6 F    122.0 F      
45 min        Saccharification   Heat to 154.0 F over 15 min         154.0 F      
10 min        Mash Out           Heat to 168.0 F over 10 min         168.0 F

Other than the obligatory "why brew a 2.5% beer", does anyone have any suggestions?

I thought about spices but never played with them before and would hate to over-do it. With the right advice, it's certainly a possibility. Since it's an 11 gallon batch going into 2 kegs, I could do one with and one without, assuming infusion in the keg.

Decoction mash is do-able.

Not looking to sour or introduce any long-lasting bug strains.

On the fence about CO2 volumes... I was thinking 3, but even a 4 probably wouldn't be bad.

Fermentation temperature can be whatever. I've got full control there.

Appreciate the help in advance!

The kernel brewery do an awesome Bier a la table that sounds similar. No rye I don't think and the yeast isn't that estery. Not that rye is necessarily bad, but id want the beer to be really clean and golden. I'd maybe go with a bit of carapils or hell and just a touch of rye perhaps but to be honest I haven't that much experience of rye in light colored beer so I don't really know what I'm talking about.

Ferment as cool as you can with the yeast is my only advice you might want to listen to really.
I know it sounds stupid but I have actually had success making small beer by diluting a bigger beer... It just happened to have too much of everything in equal amounts

 

[Sadu]

11 gallons is experimental size?

Hope you aren't drinking this by yourself if it sucks.

 

[Miraculix]

Sounds good! Interested in the outcome!

 

[dmtaylor]

Easy enough to implement both of those in the plan. However, I am concerned about head retention with as little grain as I have to work with in this concept... hence the protein rest.

This is exactly why I am telling you NOT to do a protein rest. Not needed with 21st century malts. Things I'm sure you've read and heard and believed as fact are actually ancient outdated knowledge that will unfortunately take more time to catch up to the times. In the experience of myself and many, a protein rest today in the 21st century with well modified malts is actually detrimental to body and head retention, i.e., it has exactly the opposite effect of what you intended! But don't take my word for it, please don't. What I *would* ask you to do is to brew it more than once, with vs. without the protein rest, and see which way comes out better for you.

Cheers.

 

[couchsending]

This is exactly why I am telling you NOT to do a protein rest. Not needed with 21st century malts. Things I'm sure you've read and heard and believed as fact are actually ancient outdated knowledge that will unfortunately take more time to catch up to the times. In the experience of myself and many, a protein rest today in the 21st century with well modified malts is actually detrimental to body and head retention, i.e., it has exactly the opposite effect of what you intended! But don't take my word for it, please don't. What I *would* ask you to do is to brew it more than once, with vs. without the protein rest, and see which way comes out better for you.

Cheers.

I think that might be a bit of a blanket statement.. there are different ends of the protein rest temp zone. The brewers at Bierstadt Lagerhaus in Denver who make some the most phenomenal lager beers in the US with almost comical head retention recommend a protein rest for 15 minutes at 130-133 and that’s for a malt bull consisting of basically all Pils.

 

[Miraculix]

I think that might be a bit of a blanket statement.. there are different ends of the protein rest temp zone. The brewers at Bierstadt Lagerhaus in Denver who make some the most phenomenal lager beers in the US with almost comical head retention recommend a protein rest for 15 minutes at 130-133 and that’s for a malt bull consisting of basically all Pils.

I also read about two enzymes working at the protein rest, basically one decreases head and one increases head. However their temperature range was fairly close together, like 5 degrees Celsius or something like that.

In theory, doing a small rest at the temperature promoting the activity of the right enzyme, should increase head.

However, in reality the imperical results, shown by the users of the German forum, were not always positive, so they have mixed feelings about this.

I would do, as dmtaylor recommended, a split batch, one with and one without the protein rest.

Before I would try to find out which temperature promotes the activity of the enzyme that should increase head.

 

[jcav]

Timely thread, as I am brewing a Belgian Patersbier (table beer) tomorrow! I also am making an 11 gallon batch and I need 13.5 gallons pre-boil for my system. I am using Pilsner, Abbey malt, Belgian Cara-Vienna, Torrified Wheat, Belgian Aromatic malt, and Saaz hops. Gonna only sparge and collect around 4 gallons of wort through this light mash and then take a reading and stop at 1.010 (maybe 1.008) and that is it. The rest of the volume will be made up of R/O water. Got a yeast starter of Wyeast 3787 going since Wednesday and I am cold crashing it now so I can decant and pitch the slurry only. Good luck on your brew day. Report back when you pour one and let us know how yours came out. This is an interesting beer and that is why I am attempting it tomorrow.

Edit: Oh and I will mash at 144 degrees for 30 min and then 158 degrees for 30 min, and then mash out at 170 degrees for 10 min.

John

 

[Jayjay1976]

This does sound delicious, Belgian character in a refreshing session beer. I love Belgian yeast. Maybe dry-hop with a bit of something fruity to add a bit of interest? I really like NZ Rakau for beers like this.

 

[couchsending]

Wyeast has a great PC out right now which is supposed to be ideal for low ABV Belgian Beers especially. 3655, Belgian Schelde. Just used it for a 4.7% Belgian Pale I dry hopped with Mandarina. Belgian Pale/Aromatic/Strisselspalt ... Gonna keg it and naturally carbonate it in the keg to a little higher level. I feel like you can carb higher when it’s natural carbonation versus forced.

 

[Punx Clever]

11 gallons is experimental size?

Hope you aren't drinking this by yourself if it sucks.

I have found that 10/11 gallon batches are easier to brew on my system, in general, than 5/6 gallon batches. Not to mention that the grain bill for a 6 gallon batch would be remarkably small and, in my sanke mash tun, I likely wouldn't have enough depth in the grain bed.

I don't see it coming out bad enough to not enjoy. I'm a fan of lighter beers and rye anyways... I've got another recipe I brew from time to time that is 40% rye and comes in around 5%.

This is exactly why I am telling you NOT to do a protein rest. Not needed with 21st century malts. Things I'm sure you've read and heard and believed as fact are actually ancient outdated knowledge that will unfortunately take more time to catch up to the times. In the experience of myself and many, a protein rest today in the 21st century with well modified malts is actually detrimental to body and head retention, i.e., it has exactly the opposite effect of what you intended! But don't take my word for it, please don't. What I *would* ask you to do is to brew it more than once, with vs. without the protein rest, and see which way comes out better for you.

Cheers.

I also read about two enzymes working at the protein rest, basically one decreases head and one increases head. However their temperature range was fairly close together, like 5 degrees Celsius or something like that.

In theory, doing a small rest at the temperature promoting the activity of the right enzyme, should increase head.

However, in reality the imperical results, shown by the users of the German forum, were not always positive, so they have mixed feelings about this.

I would do, as dmtaylor recommended, a split batch, one with and one without the protein rest.

Before I would try to find out which temperature promotes the activity of the enzyme that should increase head.

Fair enough! Nix the protein rest, aye!

I stopped by the LHBS and picked up the specialty grains, hops and yeast. Hopefully I'll get the brew in next weekend... but it all depends on how much longer a 1.117 Imperial Stout that is in the fermenter takes to get down to 1.025.

Ended up with 2 oz of Spalter at 2.5% AA. Just for kicks I'm gonna add it as a FWH.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Fun fact: I can only drink about 8 or 9 table beers before the laws of physics force me to drink floor beers for the rest of the evening.

 

[AzOr]

Keep us posted. I’m curious about your use of rye.

I’ve had Papazian’s rye pils recipe on my to-brew list for years.

Your thread is definitely bumping it to the top.

 

[Punx Clever]

Finally got around to brewing this... fermenter opened up when an imperial stout went into the barrel with 10 other club members, and my Tilt opened up when a club hop experiment IPA was ready for kegging. Looking towards the Memorial day weekend, I didn't want to burn a day brewing, so why not make an evening brew? Turns out, I started at 8pm, was finished by 1am, and now it's 2am as I search for the best temperatures for t-58.

Anywho, I chilled to 85 and put it in the fermenter/fermentation chamber. Should be ready to pitch in the morning. Might take the opportunity to dump any trub that made it to the fermenter... but there's not a lot of trub there to begin with on a beer this small, especially using a hop spider. I doubt this will take a week to go into kegs.

Obligatory pictures of the brew day (i'm taking fewer now that my system is dialed in better and I am fussing with it less):

 

[jcav]

Excellent! Remember to give us an update when you pour one! I'm kegging mine this weekend!

John

 

[Punx Clever]

Beer is rock steady at 1.005 now, down from 1.027, for 2.8%. A little higher ABV than I had planned on, but it's not a bad thing.

Pulled a sample to see what I thought and run a forced diacetyl test, since the beer is only 5 days out from brew day.

It's a little beer, for sure, but not so thin as to be watery (thanks biscuit!). Lots and lots of banana, but in a good way. Rye is also apparent, but not overwhelming.

Diacetyl test involved taking two samples, putting one in a hot water bath and waiting for about 30 minutes. Both samples were then chilled. Heated sample definitely have a butter flavor and slickness indicative of diacetyl that was not present in the control. The beer is getting a ramp from 65 to 70 over 12 hours, 48 hours of rest, then a ramp from 70 to 50 over twelve hours to prepare for gelatin and cold crashing.

It'll be a good beer, just needs a little more time.

 

[AzOr]

I know it’s early but are you satisfied with the ibu?

 

[Punx Clever]

I know it’s early but are you satisfied with the ibu?

Based on the non-heated sample in the forced diacetyl test... yes. Ratio is .4 IBU/GU.

It's like a little belgian wit in a lot of ways; if you call it a 2008 BJCP "16E Belgian Specialty Ale" it's 3 points low on gravity and 5 IBUs low on bitterness. So the bitterness is a little high if you look at it that way.

It's yeast/malt forward right now. We'll see how it tastes in the keg. But I get the feeling that it's what I was shooting for.

 

[Punx Clever]

I'm calling this one a winner. It's light, refreshing, and a little spicy with some mild estery flavors/aromas. Next time, I'll replace some of the pils with wheat to get a little more body and hopefully some head retention: 50% pils (down from 75%), 25% white wheat, 20% rye, 5% biscuit.

 

[kevin58]

A little background on table beer for anyone interested...

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2013/05/barclay-perkins-table-beer-1804-1869.html

 

[TwistedGray]

I'm calling this one a winner. It's light, refreshing, and a little spicy with some mild estery flavors/aromas. Next time, I'll replace some of the pils with wheat to get a little more body and hopefully some head retention: 50% pils (down from 75%), 25% white wheat, 20% rye, 5% biscuit.

Looks like beer to me! Nice hop growth.

 

[catdaddy66]

I'm calling this one a winner. It's light, refreshing, and a little spicy with some mild estery flavors/aromas. Next time, I'll replace some of the pils with wheat to get a little more body and hopefully some head retention: 50% pils (down from 75%), 25% white wheat, 20% rye, 5% biscuit.

That is gorgeous! It could easily be in an advert and I would buy it! And ditto on the hop vines.

 

[Jayjay1976]

This thread is pure win. I'll be brewing this very soon.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for sharing the entire process. Yes, table beer is a awesome brew for homebrewers. Not a style you can easily find in retail. I like the concept of a mild Belgian recipe as the extra funky "stuff" helps move the focus away from the lowered grain bill. Prosit!

 

[Punx Clever]

11 gallons is experimental size?

Hope you aren't drinking this by yourself if it sucks.

Update:
1 keg down, would have been disappointed tonight if I hadn't done a full batch! It's been perfect for this mid-summer heat.

 

[donrstacy]

Update:
1 keg down, would have been disappointed tonight if I hadn't done a full batch! It's been perfect for this mid-summer heat.

Did the banana esters carry thru to the final product? How well did the rye spiciness show up? If you had to brew it again, what would you change? Looking to do the same but looking to push the rye more towards 30% and wanting a more saison type finish.