Table Beer - Bru'n Water pH too low - Dumped Mash. Twice.

[Twang]

Alright what am I doing wrong...

I have a recipe for a table beer. A really really light saison.

• 5 gallon batch
• 1.024 OG
• 3lb 8oz Pilsen - 1.7L
• 0lb 8oz Wheat - 3.25L

Brewing this one BIAB. Since the grainbill is so light and I am doing a 90 minute boil I am

• mashing w/ 4 gallons
• sparging with 3 gallons

Using Bru'n Water I am trying to target a mash pH of 5.2 with a water profile of:

• Calcium 47
• Magnesium 3
• Sodium 5
• Sulfate 106
• Chloride 21

I added the following to my 4 gallons of Distilled mash water:

• 2.6g of Gypsum
• 0.4g of Epsom
• 0.2g of Salt
• 0.4g of Calcium Chloride

Bru'n says w/ no acidification my mash pH will be 5.61 and I need 6 ounces of Acid Malt to bring my pH to 5.21.

My first attempt I did not add the acid malt at dough in. I took a pH reading at 10 minutes (cooled to room temp) using my freshly calibrated Hach PocketPro+ and it read 5.59. Pretty close to what Bru'n predicted. I added 6oz acid malt and took a reading 15 minutes later and it was 4.8. I dumped the mash out, went to the LHBS to get more grain and started over.

This time I doughed in w/ 3oz of acid malt. Since 6 ounces brought my pH down 0.8 I thought half of that would drop me 0.4 to around 5.2.
Took a reading at 15 minutes and it was 5.0. I dumped the mash. I'll try again next weekend.

Why does Bru'n water call for 6 ounces of acid malt where I probably need around 1 ounce? Based on these 2 dumped batches.

 

[mkyl428]

RDWHAHB Although mash PH is important it is not worth dumping the mash just because the PH was a a bit off it will not ruin the beer the mash is very forgiving & to be honest 1/2 the time I don't take a PH reading

SHHH... Don't tell anyone

Cheers

 

[Twang]

RDWHAHB Although mash PH is important it is not worth dumping the mash just because the PH was a a bit off it will not ruin the beer the mash is very forgiving & to be honest 1/2 the time I don't take a PH reading

SHHH... Don't tell anyone

Cheers

I know, but I want to learn from my mistakes and not just sweep them under the rug. Plus its such a light grain bill, its not a costly batch to learn on.

I plugged everything into Brewers Friend and when I use 6 ounces of Acid Malt it predicts a pH of 4.78 about what I experienced with my first batch. It calls for 2.4 ounces to get to 5.21 where as Bru'n calls for 6 ounces... I wonder why the discrepancy. Maybe I have something wrong on Bru'n Water?

 

[mkyl428]

Try Brewer's Friend I use it over Bru'n Water I haven't used Bru'n water so I can't comment on it's accuracy however I have found BF to be very accurate.

 

[Malt]

I know, but I want to learn from my mistakes and not just sweep them under the rug. Plus its such a light grain bill, its not a costly batch to learn on.

I plugged everything into Brewers Friend and when I use 6 ounces of Acid Malt it predicts a pH of 4.78 about what I experienced with my first batch. It calls for 2.4 ounces to get to 5.21 where as Bru'n calls for 6 ounces... I wonder why the discrepancy. Maybe I have something wrong on Bru'n Water?

Different spreadsheets model the buffering capacity of various malts and the mash differently.

No single spreadsheet can accurately predict mash pH under all circumstances. Part of the problem stems from the lack of Maltster participation in providing DI pH and titration data (perhaps there is lack of industry standards in that area).

What you are seeing is that the Brewers Friend calculator happens to mathematically model your particular recipe better than Bru N Water.

For more fun than a barrel of monkeys, try using EZWater and AJ Delanges spreadsheet, what answers do they give?

 

[bayoujeeper]

I have noticed in my experience that Bru'n water always over shoots (or undershoots I guess, since the pH is going to low! :cross: )with any kind of acid addition. I use Brewers Friend and it tends to overshoot a bit too. I have started adding half of the acid it calls for, take a reading and adjust from there. Since I started doing this method I have been much closer to my desired pH.

 

[alane1]

Just so you don't have to keep dumping batches you may want to get some calcium carbonate. Whenever I mess with mash ph I always do so with a scaled down grist for a 1 quart yeast starter. That way you can hit your numbers and then scale up to full batch size. Hope this helps.

 

[mkyl428]

Different spreadsheets model the buffering capacity of various malts and the mash differently.

No single spreadsheet can accurately predict mash pH under all circumstances. Part of the problem stems from the lack of Maltster participation in providing DI pH and titration data (perhaps there is lack of industry standards in that area).

What you are seeing is that the Brewers Friend calculator happens to mathematically model your particular recipe better than Bru N Water.

For more fun than a barrel of monkeys, try using EZWater and AJ Delanges spreadsheet, what answers do they give?

+1 try different calculators till you find one that more closely represents the results you are seeing
The mash PH is important, but I wouldn't dump my mash b/c it 's a little off. IMHO I think you will learn far more finishing the beer & making adjustments next time you brew it by keeping good notes

 

[ajdelange]

I have a recipe for a table beer. A really really light saison.

• 5 gallon batch
• 1.024 OG
• 3lb 8oz Pilsen - 1.7L
• 0lb 8oz Wheat - 3.25L

Brewing this one BIAB. Since the grainbill is so light and I am doing a 90 minute boil I am

• mashing w/ 4 gallons
• sparging with 3 gallons

Using Bru'n Water I am trying to target a mash pH of 5.2 ...

That's pretty low. 5.4 - 5.5 would be more reasonable

....with a water profile of:.....

I added the following to my 4 gallons of Distilled mash water:

• 2.6g of Gypsum
• 0.4g of Epsom
• 0.2g of Salt
• 0.4g of Calcium Chloride

Bru'n says w/ no acidification my mash pH will be 5.61

5.61 is a reasonable prediction for this water and grain mix. I get 5.55 assuming the malt is Weyermanns Pils and that the wheat behaves essentially the same as the barley.

...and I need 6 ounces of Acid Malt to bring my pH to 5.21.

That's not so reasonable as 6 Oz amounts to 8.6% of the grist and the rule of thumb predicts a new pH of 5.55 - 0.86 = 4.69 but a more detailed calculation gives 5.04 (based on a sample of Weyermanns Sauermalz I measured).

My first attempt I did not add the acid malt at dough in. I took a pH reading at 10 minutes (cooled to room temp) using my freshly calibrated Hach PocketPro+ and it read 5.59. Pretty close to what Bru'n predicted.

And to the 5.55 I estimate.

I added 6oz acid malt and took a reading 15 minutes later and it was 4.8. I dumped the mash out, went to the LHBS to get more grain and started over.

That's above the rule of thumb prediction but well below the calculated 5.04. I suspect that the problem was simply that you did not wait long enough. These reactions take time especially when you add the acid malt to a mash already underway. If trying to correct after the fact it is best to use liquid acid. In any case I think you should have stirred and checked and stirred and checked until the pH was seen to be leveling off. I'm guessing it would have eventually leveled around 5 (which is too low).

This time I doughed in w/ 3oz of acid malt. Since 6 ounces brought my pH down 0.8 I thought half of that would drop me 0.4 to around 5.2.
Took a reading at 15 minutes and it was 5.0. I dumped the mash. I'll try again next weekend.

It's only approximately linear. Three Oz, 4.5%, should take you, by the rule of thumb, to 5.55 - 0.45 = 5.10. Detailed calculation says 5.25. Again, I think if you had waited and stirred vigorously you probably would have seen the pH climb to around 5.25 (still too low unless you know something about Saisons that I don't).

Why does Bru'n water call for 6 ounces of acid malt where I probably need around 1 ounce?

To get to 5.25 you probably need 3 Oz. One Oz would get you to around 5.43 which would be a perfectly respectable pH for this mash. So you do indeed need about an oz. Why does Bru'n water give you bad answers: because its model of sauermalz doesn't reflect the sauermalz you are using (or apparently the one I measured).

Alright what am I doing wrong...

1. Assuming that you need a lower pH than you actually do.
2. Relying on a spreadsheet to accurately predict mash pH
3. Failing to wait long enough for the sauermalz to yield up all its acid and for that acid to react and not mixing thoroughly enough and frequently enough after the sauermalz addition.
4. Not using the rule of thumb as a sanity check

Next time you have a shot at this make a small test mash (about a pound of grain) with 1.5% sauermalz, mash it with strike temperature water, stir and check pH, wait, stir and check again and see where the pH levels off. It will probably be around 5.4 but I can't guarantee that as I am using a spreadsheet too. If it's lower than that, try again with less sauermalz. If it's higher, then try again with more. It's much easier (and less expensive) to iterate with a small amount of grain than the whole mash.

 

[Braufessor]

When I plug your numbers into B'run water, I notice that the "Net Mash Acidity mEq" on the Mash acidification page - bottom right is 65 (and highlighted pink). It says it should not go above 25.

When I plug in 6 ounces I do get a pH of 5.2. However, when I plug in 2 ounces, it also says mash pH of 5.2.......

I am not an expert, but my guess is that the buffering capacity of your mash is low with all the RO water and no alkalinity. Because of the high "Net Mash Acidity" and little buffering, when you reach the tipping point, the pH crashes low.

Like I said, when I enter the numbers, 2 ounces will also give 5.2 pH......

I did it quick, but take a look and see if you get the same.

 

[ajdelange]

Just so you don't have to keep dumping batches you may want to get some calcium carbonate.

That's bad advice but...

Whenever I mess with mash ph I always do so with a scaled down grist ..

That's good advice.

 

[Braufessor]

hmmm.... now that I look back at my spreadsheet..... I have something weird going on. Something seems off when I enter the info..... so, disregard my input for now until I figure out what is going on with my spreadsheet (it is like I have two versions of the B'run water spreadsheet and when I enter it in one, it comes out as I posted, but when I enter it in the other - it comes out like you outline.) Not sure what is going on...... But, AJ gave you lots of awesome insight.

 

[mchrispen]

Also - I have started to see a lot of variation in my acid malts. My old LHBS the acid malt behaved pretty much as BWS expected... but I bought some online (Weyerman), and it seems to have a much more pronounced level of acidity. Once I use this up - will most likely just drop back to liquid acid. I am not sure if it is a vendor specific thing, freshness or some combination of the above.

Braufessor, are you using the subscriber version?

 

[mabrungard]

A pro-brewer friend of mine told me that his grain supplier said that their acid malt strength was twice what Weyermann's was. With that said, acid malt is a natural product that is subject to 'natural' variation. The only way you will know what your supply of acid malt will do, is to test it in action. For that reason, you won't see me recommending acid malt usage when I can more easily and cheaply get the desired acidification result with lactic acid. Much more precise. Sorry to hear about the OP's result.

 

[ajdelange]

Also - I have started to see a lot of variation in my acid malts. My old LHBS the acid malt behaved pretty much as BWS expected... but I bought some online (Weyerman), and it seems to have a much more pronounced level of acidity. Once I use this up - will most likely just drop back to liquid acid. I am not sure if it is a vendor specific thing, freshness or some combination of the above.

FWIW Kai has tested two batches of Weyermanns and I have tested one and while DI mash pH and buffering coefficients differ all three deliver protons to pH 5.4 within less than 10% of the average. The rumors of extra strength sauermalz sounds like a furphy to me but as three samples is hardly a universe I couldn't say for sure until I tested one of these 'super sauer' malts.

But really there is no reason to use sauermalz in preference to lactic acid (except that it is easier to measure out) unless you want the other flavors that come with it and some here have said they don't even notice those.

 

[Braufessor]

Braufessor, are you using the subscriber version?

I actually have multiple versions apparently....... i knew I had the regular download version and the subscriber version. But, it looks like I might have 2 versions of the downloaded one????

Originally, I just had the downloaded version - several years ago. I also have the subscriber version from 1-2 years ago -but that is on a computer I have at home.

I was just plugging the numbers into the version I have on this computer - I have some recipes/spreadsheets on it. But, I noticed that there was a difference on a couple of the spreadsheets - basically if you look at the "adjustment page" one of them has this:

Total Mash Water Vol (gal) 4.00 Total Sparge Water Vol (gal) 0.00
Mash Dilution Vol (gal) 4.00 Sparge Dilution Vol (gal) 0.00

And, the other one does not have that second line of Mash/sparge dilution..... At any rate, the spreadsheets end up giving different numbers for pH with the same inputs.

I have the subscriber version on another computer and have been using that recently, and converting my recipes over to that. I think it is the most recent version..... I will have to do some looking when I get home and make sure everything is up to date with it, and I have my own stuff in order.

 

[mchrispen]

Yeah it sounds like you have a much older and the current versions. Maybe time to pitch those and re-download. I did have a virus hit one of my folders once and hose up the spreadsheets, but they just wouldn't open or repair.

Martin and AJ - to be fair, I bought a fairly large amount of acid malt about 2 years ago and I am sure it was pretty well staled and manky by the time I threw it away (along with some other unknown specialty malts) last year. That said - it usually behaved somewhat as BWS predicted but enough that I only started using it in Pils and Saisons. This new stuff seems a bit more potent but I wouldn't call it double. 4 ounces in a recent saison targeting 5.2 missed way low around 5.05. A tiny bit of baking soda took care of that error. I should take the time to run a DI Mash and measure it, along with the bag of Avangard Munich I just opened.

 

[Twang]

Thanks for all the advice and help.
I am going to switch to using 10% phosphoric acid instead of acid malt.

I am comparing a few water calculators.

Pre-Acid Addition pH:

• Bru'n Subscriber: 5.61
• Brewers Friend V1.5: 5.56
• MpH Water Calc 2.0: 5.63
• EZ Water 3.0.2: 5.7

20ml Addition pH:

• Bru'n Subscriber: 5.35
• Brewers Friend V1.5: 5.17
• MpH Water Calc 2.0: 5.41
• EZ Water 3.0.2: No Phosphoric acid option

Grain Bill

• 3lb 8oz Pilsen - 1.7L
• 0lb 8oz Wheat - 3.25L

4 gallons of Distilled mash water w/ the following additions:

• 2.6g of Gypsum
• 0.4g of Epsom
• 0.2g of Salt
• 0.4g of Calcium Chloride

I guess I will just go w/ 20ml and see what happens.

Edit:
Or maybe I will add all my salts to the mash and use 10ml phosphoric acid instead.

4 gallons of Distilled mash water w/ the following additions:

• 4.6g of Gypsum
• 0.7g of Epsom
• 0.4g of Salt
• 0.7g of Calcium Chloride

Pre-Acid Addition pH:

• Bru'n Subscriber: No option to add all to mash??
• Brewers Friend V1.5: 5.42
• MpH Water Calc 2.0: 5.53
• EZ Water 3.0.2: 5.64

10ml Addition pH:

• Bru'n Subscriber: No option to add all to mash??
• Brewers Friend V1.5: 5.23
• MpH Water Calc 2.0: 5.42
• EZ Water 3.0.2: No Phosphoric acid option

 

[mchrispen]

So I am going to be pragmatic here.

All of the spreadsheets will vary in estimation and accuracy. Bru'n Water has worked very well for me, but I have taken a lot of time to learn how to use it, and root cause problems when it doesn't agree with my measurements (usually user error). Brewer's Friend is also quite reliable. EZ Water works when you have DI mash pH information for each of the malts that you deploy - which inherently should be more accurate, but also a lot more effort. Practically, you need to choose one and stick with it - and learn how it behaves in the real world - comparing the estimates to measurements. Test mashes can be very informative.

Perhaps AJ or Martin can comment with more certainty on splitting the mineral additions into the mash and sparge liquors. Using minerals is a poor way to manage mash pH and alkalinity, where liquid acids maybe more precise and predictable.

 

[Twang]

So I am going to be pragmatic here.

All of the spreadsheets will vary in estimation and accuracy. Bru'n Water has worked very well for me, but I have taken a lot of time to learn how to use it, and root cause problems when it doesn't agree with my measurements (usually user error). Brewer's Friend is also quite reliable. EZ Water works when you have DI mash pH information for each of the malts that you deploy - which inherently should be more accurate, but also a lot more effort. Practically, you need to choose one and stick with it - and learn how it behaves in the real world - comparing the estimates to measurements. Test mashes can be very informative.

Perhaps AJ or Martin can comment with more certainty on splitting the mineral additions into the mash and sparge liquors. Using minerals is a poor way to manage mash pH and alkalinity, where liquid acids maybe more precise and predictable.

After giving it some more thought, I am going to do a mini test mash the night before w/ 1lb of grain and 1 gallon of water.

I am going to be adding those salts no matter what, I figure I might as well add them to my mash if it helps push my pH in the right direction. Less acid needed. Sparging with distilled water so I don't need to modify that water. Makes sense to me, but I could be missing something...

 

[ajdelange]

All of the spreadsheets will vary in estimation and accuracy.

On the day when each bag of malt comes with a data sheet (or a lot number from which the lot analysis can be accessed through the net) containing pHdi, data on proton deficit as a function of pH, buffering coefficients and temperature glide data we'll have accurate (more accurate than we have now) pH assessment calculators/spreadsheets.

Until then, spreadsheets are useful for gaining insight and mapping strategies but:

Test mashes can be very informative.

and will be our best source of accurate information.

Perhaps AJ or Martin can comment with more certainty on splitting the mineral additions into the mash and sparge liquors. Using minerals is a poor way to manage mash pH and alkalinity, where liquid acids maybe more precise and predictable.

Certainly adding calcium to the mash is not very effective as the primary means of adjusting mash pH but it can be used for 'trimming'. Acids (mostly liquid) or bases (mostly solid) are much more effective but either approach forces us to accept ions that aren't part of the pH adjustment process. For example, if we use lactic acid to control pH we get lactate ions where it's the hydrogen ions we want. Similarly if we use sodium bicarbonate we get sodium ions though it's the effect of the bicarbonate we seek. Other than that one can split the assignment between mash and sparge as one sees fit unless one definitely wants to, for example, arrange wort pH reduction through precipitation of additional phosphate.

 

[riderkb]

This question is easy - brew it with no acid malt at all! You will end up with palatable beer and that should make you happy. (If not, you need to find another hobby.)

Later on you can try a little acid malt and keep increasing it until you get the flavor you want, but I am sure you won't get anywhere near 6 oz before you ruin the flavor.

If your pH meter and online calculator tell you to ruin your beer you should put them in a drawer and just brew. Starch conversion and attenuation are key; everything else is gravy.

 

[trentm]

• 2.6g of Gypsum
• 0.4g of Epsom
• 0.2g of Salt
• 0.4g of Calcium Chloride

I know your original question concerned mash pH and I think you've received a lot of good information. Hope you workout this issue. One thing that jumped out to me regards flavor of your mineral additions. I know you didn't ask for flavor advice but since I learned from this forum about the negative flavor effects of Sulfate when using noble hops (assuming you are using them) and the positive effects Chloride has on malt flavor, my light Belgian style beers have improved tremendously. Perhaps try switching the amounts to ~0.4 Gypsum and ~2.6 Calcium Chloride (but check the amount of total Ca). Also, for what it's worth, I've discontinued the use of epsom salt.

 

[Twang]

Is this a good way to go about a mini test mash?

Scale everything down to 1lb of grain.

Dough in w/ just the grains.
Check pH after 30 minutes.
Add salts
Check pH after 30 minutes
Add Acid
Check pH after 30 minutes

 

[Twang]

I know your original question concerned mash pH and I think you've received a lot of good information. Hope you workout this issue. One thing that jumped out to me regards flavor of your mineral additions. I know you didn't ask for flavor advice but since I learned from this forum about the negative flavor effects of Sulfate when using noble hops (assuming you are using them) and the positive effects Chloride has on malt flavor, my light Belgian style beers have improved tremendously. Perhaps try switching the amounts to ~0.4 Gypsum and ~2.6 Calcium Chloride (but check the amount of total Ca). Also, for what it's worth, I've discontinued the use of epsom salt.

Thanks, I will look into this. This table beer will be using simcoe, along w/ a small dry hop addition.

Edit:
I based the water profile on this thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/what-saison-water-profiles-have-you-had-success-412548/

 

[trentm]

Oh, never mind. I understand sulfate enhances flavor with American type hops but have no experience.

 

[ajdelange]

Is this a good way to go about a mini test mash?

Scale everything down to 1lb of grain.

Dough in w/ just the grains.
Check pH after 30 minutes.
Add salts
Check pH after 30 minutes
Add Acid
Check pH after 30 minutes

I'd start with the salts in there as you are not using them as the primary means of pH control. Also, I'd take pH readings as fast as you can. Given that you need to cool samples that will probably be at 10 min, 20 min and 30 min. You will learn from the measurements over time how much drift there is and this may help you to put 'english' on an early reading and take corrective action sooner.

If, after 30 minutes, the pH is too high I'd add half the acid the spreadsheet, calculator or rule of thumb tells you to add. Be sure to stir thoroughly and frequently. If, after time pH is still to high, add the rest or a portion of the rest depending on how far you are trying to go and how far the first half of the acid took you. This is effectively determining the buffering capacity of the mash.

Repeat if necessary.

When you determine the proper amount of acid start over again using that amount of acid. You should come close to the desired pH after 30 minutes but probably will not be spot on. Make minor adjustments to the amount of acid again using the info on how much a unit acid addition moved you.

Be prepared to spend some time and malt on this first try. On the very first try you might indeed want to take the no-salts measurement. With experience you will become much more efficient.

 

[mchrispen]

The idea that sulfate 'enhances' certain kinds of hops maybe a bit overblown. Sulfate seems to enhance a dry mouthfeel, which may aid in cleaning the palette and letting certain kinds of bitterness to shine through. I believe that AJ remains in the camp that sulfate is the enemy of fine bitterness - and I think I am finally understanding where he is coming from. That said - american IPA and even high IBU APA's still don't 'taste quite right' without elevated sulfates on my palate.

I would trend your saison/blonde table beer more toward the chloride side. The sharpness of Simcoe can quickly overwhelm the grainy malt backbone from the Pils, so helping to support the malts against that hop personality maybe important. Really, you should experiment to determine the ideal additions for that given beer. I just brewed a table strength blonde (2.5%) using a very soft profile with Styrians and Saaz. Really shined. I would also recommend mashing fairly high (156F+) to keep some body in the brew. Else you might find it's a tiny bit watery!

 

[Twang]

The idea that sulfate 'enhances' maybe a bit overblown. Sulfate seems to enhance a dry mouthfeel, which may aid in cleaning the palette and letting certain kinds of bitterness to shine through. I believe that AJ remains in the camp that sulfate is the enemy of fine bitterness - and I think I am finally understanding where he is coming from. That said - american IPA and even high IBU APA's still don't 'taste quite right' without elevated sulfates on my palate.

I would trend your saison/blonde table beer more toward the chloride side. The sharpness of Simcoe can quickly overwhelm the grainy malt backbone from the Pils, so helping to support the malts against that hop personality maybe important. Really, you should experiment to determine the ideal additions for that given beer. I just brewed a table strength blonde (2.5%) using a very soft profile with Styrians and Saaz. Really shined. I would also recommend mashing fairly high (156F+) to keep some body in the brew. Else you might find it's a tiny bit watery!

I will heed your advice and go for a more balanced profile.

• Calcium: 49
• Magnesium: 3
• Sodium: 5
• Sulfate: 65
• Chloride:55