I may have only a handful of brews under my belt in just a couple years…. But I’m going to declare t58 doesn’t get the love it deserves. This yeast is super easy to use, blast through fermentation like a bandit, and makes a tasty beer with spicy notes and bubblegum. I’ve used it twice now and really like it. Once in a saison and just recently in a wit. Just thought I’d spread the word.
T58 needs more love
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zasada
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11 BLG from 85% of pilsner malt, 10% of wheat malt and 5% of oat flakes. Hoped with Tradition up to 25-30 IBU. Fermented by T-58 in 20*C is my favorite brew.
(Copied from Markowski's Farmhouse ales grisette recipe)
Full of bananas like some top german kristal weizen.
(Copied from Markowski's Farmhouse ales grisette recipe)
Full of bananas like some top german kristal weizen.
Agreed. I kept seeing it online for dirt cheap and even in my LHBS a couple bucks cheaper than the other dry yeasts. I finally pulled the trigger a few years back and really glad that I did. Like you said, super easy to use, quick, flavorful, and can really turn a simple brew into an outstanding product.
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Die Schwarzbier Polizei
T-58 has amazing fermentation kinetics and temperature tolerance. But I also feel it's underwhelming in the flavour department. It throws amazing flavours during the fermentation but almost none of those transfer to the ready beer, unlike with the real Belgian yeasts. It's definitely not the optimal yeast for Belgian styles like Pale Ale or Blond or Abbey, and even the Fermentis brochure recommends it only for Specialty and Wheat beers.
It's an English strain essentialy, but it's too estery for English styles and not characterful enough for Belgian styles.
Maybe that's the reason of its mixed reputation: people just don't know what exactly to brew with it.
It's an English strain essentialy, but it's too estery for English styles and not characterful enough for Belgian styles.
Maybe that's the reason of its mixed reputation: people just don't know what exactly to brew with it.
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Die Schwarzbier Polizei
No it isn't a Belgian one unfortunately. Even Fermentis never calls it so and doesn't recommend it for making Belgian styles.
Genetically T-58 stems from the same English yeast clade as EDME, Windsor and London. It differs in only it's POF+, which some English yeasts of old used to be too. There's a thread on this forum where the genetic cladogram and links to the researches are posted.
Genetically T-58 stems from the same English yeast clade as EDME, Windsor and London. It differs in only it's POF+, which some English yeasts of old used to be too. There's a thread on this forum where the genetic cladogram and links to the researches are posted.
Don't like it, never have. Just too phenolic for me, or the phenolics are off, and not at all in a good way. I've tried it in a few Belgians with (unsurprisingly) poor results. Can't imagine it in something English.
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Die Schwarzbier Polizei
There's no phenolic English beers known now but they used to exist in the 19th century. For example beers fermented in Squares were said to have a phenolic twang.
Some of English yeasts of the time were brought to Belgium and developed there into yeast strains we know now as "pure Belgian". Many of Belgian yeast strains originate in England, even some Saison yeasts are believed to have British origin. No wonder Chimay may use a yeast deriving from Britain, although it definitely isn't exactly the same strain as T-58, just compare the difference of yeast flavour in many modern T-58-fermented "Belgian" craft beers and the original Chimay.
Some of English yeasts of the time were brought to Belgium and developed there into yeast strains we know now as "pure Belgian". Many of Belgian yeast strains originate in England, even some Saison yeasts are believed to have British origin. No wonder Chimay may use a yeast deriving from Britain, although it definitely isn't exactly the same strain as T-58, just compare the difference of yeast flavour in many modern T-58-fermented "Belgian" craft beers and the original Chimay.
They don't call it Belgian but they do recommend it for Belgian styles:
The right phenolic yeast for English & Belgian-style ales
Specialty brewer’s yeast selected for its strong fermentation character, intense fruity and phenolic flavors – especially banana, clove and peppery notes. Suitable for a great variety of wheat-base beers and fruity-spicy oriented styles.
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Die Schwarzbier Polizei
Good to hear they do.
And in a detailed table of strains and beer styles in their yeast brochure they don't. For Belgian beers they recommend BE-256 and BE-134, and T-58 stands only for Specialities and Wheat.
I'm actually thinking now of what to ferment my soon-to-brew Blond with: T-58 or Lalbrew Abbaye. As much as I'm inclined to revisit T-58 because of its high temp tolerance, I remember I've been never peleased with its lack of estery character, even fermented warm. Huge aromas during the fermentation, and pretty bland and dull beer after it. Lalbrew Abbaye is tarter than I prefer, but it has got some strong phenolics, fruity esters and spicy bite, which T-58 lacks in my experience.
And in a detailed table of strains and beer styles in their yeast brochure they don't. For Belgian beers they recommend BE-256 and BE-134, and T-58 stands only for Specialities and Wheat.
I'm actually thinking now of what to ferment my soon-to-brew Blond with: T-58 or Lalbrew Abbaye. As much as I'm inclined to revisit T-58 because of its high temp tolerance, I remember I've been never peleased with its lack of estery character, even fermented warm. Huge aromas during the fermentation, and pretty bland and dull beer after it. Lalbrew Abbaye is tarter than I prefer, but it has got some strong phenolics, fruity esters and spicy bite, which T-58 lacks in my experience.
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Well, BE-256 certainly isn't really Belgian either. But I used it for my quad and it seems to have turned out OK. Not as happy with the Tripel and the Golden that used T-58, but both of those were co-pitched with other strains so I'm not sure who to blame.
I've used it a few times; the best was when my homebrew club had a "big brew" session in the summer and we did a wheat beer. I pitched a packed of T-58 into 5 gallons of wort and fermented with no temperature control and the ambient temperature was probably >80°F. The beer was done in about 3 or 4 days. I bottled it a week after that, and the beer was quite good. Nothing remarkable about it, but good. (the remarkable thing might be that it was drinkable 
) I've had the same experience using T-58 in cider, but I prefer to use white wine yeast for that.
) I've had the same experience using T-58 in cider, but I prefer to use white wine yeast for that.
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Die Schwarzbier Polizei
I don't know really of its origins (it may be English too, who knows) but what I read is that it's a close relative of MJ M47, which is definitely a Belgian yeast as we know them now, abundant phenolics and yeast bite including. I think M47 is significantly better than BE-256, M47 probably being a blend of BE-256 and some other bold Belgian strain.
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double post
Did you find some scientific info about this?, all i find are rumors.
The S-33 is suppose to be edme, and that's an entirely different beast then the T-58.
Seems its the other way around, the belgian and german yeasts when to the us and then from there to the uk , there is a very nice article about is ->
https://allaboutbeer.com/article/the-family-tree-of-yeast/
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It may not be officially Belgian but it makes a great Belgian IPA.
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Die Schwarzbier Polizei
Here, for example, are the results of genetic sequencing by Kristoffer Krogerus: Brewing yeast family tree (Oct 2019 update)
It's a very similar genetic tree to that one in the article you linked, but with much more details specified.
Download the pdf and search for T-58 in the "Mixed" (orange) sector. Windsor, London and S-33 stand in the same sector. They are not the same as T-58 but among all yeasts they are the most closely related to T-58.
Also, @Northern_Brewer may recommend other sources on yeast genetics.
Beer yeasts and hops from the Low Countries (what Belgium is part of now) were introduced to England in the 15th century.
English yeasts (derived from those brought earlier from the Low Countries) were introduced to America in the 17th century.
How then could Belgian yeasts travel first to the US and then to the UK?
The article doesn't say that. It says, "spread first to the United Kingdom and then to the United States", without giving the dates.
It's important to know also, that many yeast strains from England were reintroduced to Belgium after 1830s, when Belgium was reviving its monastic brewing after the 40-year-long hiatus brought about by the French revolution. Little if any at all of the Belgian yeasts known now draw their pedigree to the pre-revolution period.
I used t-58 for a spiced orange wit.
came out great.
came out great.
Sorry but if i look at that picure i don't call that closely related.
Yeah sorry, i swapped us and uk
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Die Schwarzbier Polizei
In the scale of this cladogram, it\s a very close relation.
What is a distant relation to T-58, are, f.ex., Belgian Saison yeasts in the green sector "Mosaic". Some British yeasts are in the same green sector too. And other British yeasts stand in a completely different sector, "United Kingdom".
Look up for the WY and WLP yeasts codes and explore youself the broad spectrum of yeast relations. Very informative cladogram, I've learned a lot from it.
What is a distant relation to T-58, are, f.ex., Belgian Saison yeasts in the green sector "Mosaic". Some British yeasts are in the same green sector too. And other British yeasts stand in a completely different sector, "United Kingdom".
Look up for the WY and WLP yeasts codes and explore youself the broad spectrum of yeast relations. Very informative cladogram, I've learned a lot from it.
Maybe 2/3 s04 and 1/3 t58 would make an interesting bitter?
Hi, all. Speaking of T-58, it's the yeast included with a Brewer's Best kit that I'm currently fermenting. The kit recipe is called "Belgian Saison" but from what I'm reading in this thread, that might be an overstatement? At least in terms of the yeast?
Anyway, fermentation has gone smoothly and SG is leveling out as it approaches 1.011, bottom of target range per the recipe.
My question: I was talking to a professional brewer who said that saison yeasts can be problematic (e.g., the "stat" gene that can cause stuck mashes) and he said if I use a plastic bucket fermenter (which I do), I should not use it again after fermenting with saison yeast. He said it can infiltrate the plastic and cause problems for later batches, including "drying" the beer. Whatever that means. Future saison batches should be fermented in a glass carboy, he said.
I'm wondering what you, the yeast experts, think about that? First of all, T-58 doesn't sound like the kind of yeast I need to worry about. But what about the whole thing about plastic being compromised by yeast? I go months between batches, so I doubt any yeast is robust enough to survive for that long, but I'm a newbie, what do I know. Thanks.
Anyway, fermentation has gone smoothly and SG is leveling out as it approaches 1.011, bottom of target range per the recipe.
My question: I was talking to a professional brewer who said that saison yeasts can be problematic (e.g., the "stat" gene that can cause stuck mashes) and he said if I use a plastic bucket fermenter (which I do), I should not use it again after fermenting with saison yeast. He said it can infiltrate the plastic and cause problems for later batches, including "drying" the beer. Whatever that means. Future saison batches should be fermented in a glass carboy, he said.
I'm wondering what you, the yeast experts, think about that? First of all, T-58 doesn't sound like the kind of yeast I need to worry about. But what about the whole thing about plastic being compromised by yeast? I go months between batches, so I doubt any yeast is robust enough to survive for that long, but I'm a newbie, what do I know. Thanks.
Pretty sure the pro brewer was talking about diastatic yeasts. T-58 is not one. BE-134 is. Drying the beer basically means fermenting it too much. As in taking it past the intended FG. Diastatic yeasts do this because they release an enzyme called glucoamylase that converts unfermentable dextrins to fermentable sugars. Less residual dextrins means less maltiness/sweetness, less body and more alcohol. Some brewers do report having difficulty getting rid of diastatic yeasts. Others not so much. You should be able to find threads on the subject here.
Yeast, diastatic or not, can't cause a stuck mash since they're not in the mash. And diastatic yeast are sometimes used to unstick a stuck fermentation. Again, because of the glucoamylase.
HDPE should not be "compromised" by yeast. It can be compromised by scratching it up when cleaning, because microorganisms can hide in the scratches and resist our sanitation efforts. This can result in contamination in general, not just with diastatic yeast in particular. So don't use anything abrasive to clean your bucket. Hot water, PBW, and a soft cloth. If your bucket has a spigot, dissasemble it to make sure nothing is hiding inside it or in behind the washers.
Yeast, diastatic or not, can't cause a stuck mash since they're not in the mash. And diastatic yeast are sometimes used to unstick a stuck fermentation. Again, because of the glucoamylase.
HDPE should not be "compromised" by yeast. It can be compromised by scratching it up when cleaning, because microorganisms can hide in the scratches and resist our sanitation efforts. This can result in contamination in general, not just with diastatic yeast in particular. So don't use anything abrasive to clean your bucket. Hot water, PBW, and a soft cloth. If your bucket has a spigot, dissasemble it to make sure nothing is hiding inside it or in behind the washers.
T-58 is not diastatic, it is not a saison yeast and will not overly dry out the beer. In fact, while I've been making great beers with T-58, I myself have experienced poor attenuation on two occasions where I actually added Belle Saison yeast (diastaticus) to help dry it out more. If your gravity has reached 1.011 then you are not having any problems and my experience is unusual, but in any case... T-58 is not going to be a diastatic problem for you as it is not really a saison and definitely non-diastatic.
IF you ever decide to use a diastaticus yeast such as Belle... I would use glass or stainless fermenter, not plastic, and would dedicate my transfer hoses etc. to prevent cross-contamination, if concerned at all. It doesn't always necessarily become a problem... but it can occasionally.
Pardon my ignorance but wouldn’t one yeast colony try to destroy the other?
Good question! No, they wouldn't destroy each other in this case.
There are so called killer yeasts out there, mainly wine yeasts, that do kill other yeasts that are not killer yeasts themselves. This helps to make sure that it's the selected yeast fermenting the beverage, not the ones which were naturally present on the fruits, for example.
In the given case, one yeast would probably dominate the brew on the long run due to quicker growth, if there would be infinitly nutrients available. But as that's not the case, both yeasts would just contribute their specific expression to the brew.
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I have used T-58 just once recently. I made a Belgian Dark Strong Ale with it, and I also get phenolic flavors, that I find undesirable. I was trying to find a dry yeast to use with BDSA and tried both T-58 and Lallemand Abbaye. The Abbaye had even worse phenolic flavors. Maybe it was something with my fermentation or other issues, but I get much better results with liquid Westmalle starins like WY3787 and Imperial Tripel Dubbel. I may try T-58 in a Tripel to see what it's like.
If you didn't like T-58 in a BDSA, you're probably really not going to like it in a tripel. But it's all a matter of taste, of course; I happen to like Abbaye a lot. Thinking out of the box a little, what about Lallemand Wit?
I’m thinking maybe something went wrong with my fermentation, so I’d like to give it another chance before I blame the yeast completely.
AmarikinBrew
LOOK! He's diving into that can of beer AGAIN!
Wondering what was your temp range to get the bubblegum notes?
I went with 68. They’ve kind of faded in the next few bottles and the peppery notes have kind of taken over. So maybe it’s not as bubblegum as I wanted. Still a delicious beer though so I’m not worried.
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I'm going to be brewing a buckwheat ale, reverse engineered from a Breton beer called Tellen Du. The input I've been getting suggests Belgian grain and yeast influences. I'm thinking this might be a good yeast to try.
Sipina
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This might just be the dry yeast I am looking for to get the peppery notes.
Can anyone else confirm the peppery phenolics with this yeast and what did you do to get them?
What are some of the ester notes people are getting from this yeast?
Can anyone else confirm the peppery phenolics with this yeast and what did you do to get them?
What are some of the ester notes people are getting from this yeast?
AmarikinBrew
LOOK! He's diving into that can of beer AGAIN!
I had the same result as @Jloewe fading bubblegum and only pepper left. Kept temp steady 67F all the way thru. It was a Wit so it worked good for that.
Only pepper left sounds actually marvelous to me!
Sipina
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I have one 11g packet T-58 in my fridge and the news about the peppery notes are motivating indeed. I want to use it for my next brew however I don't think I will manage to keep the temperature of fermentation low enough in the summer to get the desired resutls therefore I think my best bet is to wait until cooler ambient temperatures.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Gotta dash but just to clear up a couple of things :
I've tried T-58 in bitter and it's a bit meh - it's OK, but it doesn't bring much interesting to the party. However it is very biotransformative, it turns the grapefruit of eg Chinook into a more complex mix led by lime.
And yes, it goes off like a rocket, so watch those airlocks!
That's literally the opposite of what happened - and that article says so, that they went from Britain to the US.
Nope - you have to remember that single strain yeasts are aberrations, multistrains were historically the norm - and still are in British family breweries. They don't destroy each other unless they are killer strains (which brewing yeast aren't in general), although one may outcompete another over generations.
It's not S-33 "is" EDME, but like Windsor it is descended from EDME. And T-58 is a cousin - the phenolics come from a 2-gene cassette which is relatively easy to insert or disable, in all other regards it's pretty similar to Windsor/S-33. Low attenuation, similar esters etc.
Suregork didn't do the sequencing, he just assembled the family tree based on public sequences - still a non-trivial job.
In that case your experience of English beers is too limited - contrary to the propaganda of US yeast labs, phenolic yeast are fairly common here in traditional breweries. About 40% of the "core" Brewlab strains mention phenolics in their descriptions.
They still exist - you can certainly detect the phenolics in a fresh pint of cask Harvey's or Sam Smiths. But the breweries with phenolic yeast work quite hard to suppress the phenolics, or at least move them to the background - one could argue that's the reason for brewing in squares (which still happens) which are indeed apparently associated with saison-family yeast.
I've tried T-58 in bitter and it's a bit meh - it's OK, but it doesn't bring much interesting to the party. However it is very biotransformative, it turns the grapefruit of eg Chinook into a more complex mix led by lime.
And yes, it goes off like a rocket, so watch those airlocks!
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