Sugar question, again.

[redrocker652002]

OK, the other day I posted a question about the difference between Sucrose and Dextrose (Corn Sugar and Table Sugar I believe). I got some good responses and have done some searching but cannot seem to find what I am looking for. I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, so please take that into consideration LOL. My latest recipe calls for 3/4 pound of Corn Sugar of which I forgot to order with the other ingredients. So, in my research I found that table sugar can be used. What I have also found is that table sugar will add a bit more OG to the mix. At least it did when I swapped it in Brewfather. In this particular case I don't mind as it is coming in a bit low anyway. So, my question to you all is this, do I do a simple even switch? Or is there a formula for using one for the other? Any input or help is much appreciated.

 

[day_trippr]

Corn Sugar = Dextrose
Cane Sugar = Sucrose
Table sugar is typically cane sugar.

I've never used cane sugar in a brew so don't know if they should be pound for pound equivalent...

Cheers!

 

[AlexKay]

About 10% less sucrose than you would have used dextrose. And you won't notice a difference. You wouldn't notice a difference if you did pound-for-pound, either.

 

[redrocker652002]

Awesome, thanks folks. So, if I am reading right, 12 ounces in 3/4 of a pound so 10% less would be somewhere in the area of 10.5 ounces? I am going to go with that and see. This is what makes this so fun, right? LOL.

 

[fluketamer]

yes you wont notice the difference with pound for pound or 10 percent less and you likely wont notice the diference between cane and corn.

curious what the brew is some beers can benefit from different sugars.

everyone knows about candi sugar for Belgians although prolly table sugar or dextrose works fine.

but i have had decent flavor additions using dark brown sugar in stouts, cane sugar in ciders, and dextrose in lagers, (as well as agave or honey). i know a lot of brewers use invert. some non malt adjunct sugars do leave some flavor addition they dont all ferment completely tasteless imo.

 

[redrocker652002]

yes you wont notice the difference with pound for pound or 10 percent less and you likely wont notice the diference between cane and corn.

curious what the brew is some beers can benefit from different sugars.

everyone knows about candi sugar for Belgians although prolly table sugar or dextrose works fine.

but i have had decent flavor additions using dark brown sugar in stouts, cane sugar in ciders, and dextrose in lagers, (as well as agave or honey). i know a lot of brewers use invert. some non malt adjunct sugars do leave some flavor addition they dont all ferment completely tasteless imo.

It is an American Pale Ale, or that's what it started as. LOL

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

First off I am not a scientist. All sugar types are going to contribute alcohol and different flavors when consumed by the yeast. Corn sugar is typically added to boost the alcohol a few points or to carbonate bottled beer. You don't want to use too much in either case.

Different types of sugars have there place in brewing because the yeast works differently with each. When yeast works hard to convert the sweetness to alcohol it can also produce off flavors or kill the yeast itself. Certain sugars like Belgian candi ferment real easy and only leaves good flavors behind besides producing alcohol.

It's great to experiment with different sugars but you need to be careful too. Maple syrup tastes great, real sweet too but it doesn't leave much maple flavor behind after fermentation, same with honey.

Read up on what you want to do or post a question here.

 

[MaxStout]

There was an urban legend a few years back, suggesting that using table sugar would introduce "winey" off-flavors, or some such. I think that's long been debunked. IIRC, there was a piece in Brew Like a Monk that mentioned some Belgian brewers simply using beet sugar (sucrose) now. If it works for them, it'll work for us.

Use the sugar you have.

 

[mac_1103]

I make a Brut IPA that uses a pound of corn sugar in a five gallon batch. I'm quite certain that it would turn out exactly the same if I used 14.5 ounces of cane sugar instead.

 

[fluketamer]

in an apa i wouldnt put any sugar i would replace it with extra light malt.

i dont think of apas as dry and sugars can dry out a beer.

i think the cidery or "winey" off flavors came from too much table sugar and / or lack of temp control.

i made my share of cidery beers in the 80's before knowlegde sharing on the internet. because of that i am scared to add cane sugar to beers. i once brewed a lager and forgot i had no dextrose and wanted to thin it out. being afraid to use table sugar i substituted agave syrup for corn sugar and it turned out really well. i swore it added a nice peppery bite to the lager that i enjoyed. however, as stated above its likely myth that table sugar shouldnt or cant go in beer. i have since read enough and seen enough videos to realize cane sugar can prolly be subbed for corn with little or no discernable diference.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

Using malt (DME, LME or grain) should be your first choice to add to a recipe. I keep a bag of light DME around in case I need to make an adjustment.

It's also used to make yeast starters but that's a different post.

 

[redrocker652002]

Good call on the DME, I think I have some that I forgot about. How much would be a good sub for 3/4 of a pound of Corn Sugar. Thank you for that, I completely forgot I had it.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

Good call on the DME, I think I have some that I forgot about. How much would be a good sub for 3/4 of a pound of Corn Sugar. Thank you for that, I completely forgot I had it.

I'm really not sure but since you only need 3/4 of a pound sugar, I'd use that same amount of DME. I hope someone else chimes in to give you a more solid answer. In the end your beer will still be beer and you probably won't notice any difference with that small amount.

 

[mac_1103]

Ounce for ounce, corn sugar and light DME will add about the same to your OG. But the sugar is completely fermentable and the DME is only about 75% fermentable.

 

[mac_1103]

Handy free online recipe calculator.

 

[fluketamer]

Ounce for ounce, corn sugar and light DME will add about the same to your OG. But the sugar is completely fermentable and the DME is only about 75% fermentable.

yes which iirc means the beer should have more body and may be a little bit sweeter - from whatever is in the DME that the yeast didnt eat - i think maltodextrine and other stuff in there . no? thats why dextrose thins beer and dme doesnt i think

there was a thread about the fermenting profile of brewery crystals which i think is corn syrup solids dextrose and glucose. it is supposed to mimic the malt profile of dme thereby increasing the abv without thining it out too much similar to dme. i have used brewer crystals before with some success.

Brewer’s Crystals - 1 lb.

in a pinch brewers crystals are prolly better than straight sugar especially if you want a less malty beer but stiil want the abv.

i generally dont use them anymore because you can get about the same result with dextrose and maltodextrine which is cheaper or you can just use dme dextrose 50/50 mix.

crystals are another option for adding additional fermentable sugar

 

[mac_1103]

yes which iirc means the beer should have more body and may be a little bit sweeter - from whatever is in the DME that the yeast didnt eat - i think maltodextrine and other stuff in there . no? thats why dextrose thins beer and dme doesnt i think

I believe you are more or less correct. But if a recipe actually calls for corn sugar which I think is the case here, then drying the beer out is probably at least part of the reason.

 

[rhys333]

I use table sugar in many of my brews at about 10-15% of fermentables when i want to either boost alcohol without increasing body, or when i want crispness and light flavor in lower abv brews. I have never bothered with dextrose.

Keep in mind that table sugar can be cane or beet, depending on your region or where your supply comes from. I'm in the Canadian Prairie region, and most of the table sugar here is beet sugar. On either coast, it's predominantly cane sugar from imports. I haven't noticed any difference between the two, except when turning the sugar into Belgian candi sugar. The beet sugar will seize up and crystallize (not good), whereas cane sugar will not.

But, the short answer is that for almost all straightforward sugar additions, table sugar is absolutely fine (cane or beet).

 

[khannon]

Are you sure the 3/4 lb corn sugar wasn't for bottling?

I use beet sugar in some of my belgian style recipes, but typically recipes call for the corn sugar to be added just before bottling so that the yeast has something to carbonate with. powdered corn sugar tends to dissolve easier than granulated cane/beet sugar, which is why I assume they use it.

 

[mac_1103]

I haven't noticed any difference between the two, except when turning the sugar into Belgian candi sugar. The beet sugar will seize up and crystallize (not good), whereas cane sugar will not.

That's interesting, since I'm pretty sure that the Belgians use beet sugar. Sucrose should be sucrose whether it's refined from cane or beets.

Are you sure the 3/4 lb corn sugar wasn't for bottling?

That would have to be either a very large batch or a very high level of carbonation. 12 ounces of corn sugar in a five gallon batch would give you almost 5 volumes of CO2 which will be, shall we say, interesting unless you're using champagne bottles or PET.

typically recipes call for the corn sugar to be added just before bottling so that the yeast has something to carbonate with

Plenty of recipes call for corn sugar in the primary fermentation. Back in my beginner days, I even had a couple of extract kits that came with a pound package of corn sugar for the primary and another 5 ounces for bottling.

 

[rhys333]

That's interesting, since I'm pretty sure that the Belgians use beet sugar. Sucrose should be sucrose whether it's refined from cane or beets.

That would have to be either a very large batch or a very high level of carbonation. 12 ounces of corn sugar in a five gallon batch would give you almost 5 volumes of CO2 which will be, shall we say, interesting unless you're using champagne bottles or PET.

Plenty of recipes call for corn sugar in the primary fermentation. Back in my beginner days, I even had a couple of extract kits that came with a pound package of corn sugar for the primary and another 5 ounces for bottling.

For all normal applications beet and cane perform the same. All I can say is that beet and cane sugar perform differently in candy making. The beet crystallizes very easily, whereas cane does not. I struggled with this until I tried sugar sourced from cane (by chance). This led to questions that I found answers to from candy makers.

As for the Belgian brewers, I know that they traditionally use it because, like me, it's readily available locally at low cost. I don't know what processes they use to make it work for them. Much of what circulates online appears to be speculative.

 

[MaxStout]

For all normal applications beet and cane perform the same. All I can say is that beet and cane sugar perform differently in candy making. The beet crystallizes very easily, whereas cane does not. I struggled with this until I tried sugar sourced from cane (by chance). This led to questions that I found answers to from candy makers.

As for the Belgian brewers, I know that they traditionally use it because, like me, it's readily available locally at low cost. I don't know what processes they use to make it work for them. Much of what circulates online appears to be speculative.

Beet sugar is king around here, with American Crystal Sugar nearby in western MN. They grow a massive amount of beets in the Red River valley area of MN and ND. Plus, any store brand table sugar is going to be beet, being that it's cheaper. If you want cane, C&H is sold most everywhere, but it costs more.

IIRC, the processing is different between the two types, with cane sugar being processed using bone ash, and beet sugar processed without it. People with much better taste buds than mine claim they can tell the difference. There's some controversy as to which is "better" for you. Vegans will often choose beet, as it doesn't have the bone ash.

Some people claim that dextrose, being a monosaccharide, is fermented faster by yeast. I don't doubt that but the few times I've used table sugar I honestly couldn't tell the difference.

If I have dextrose, I'll use that for bottling. If not, whatever table sugar I have does the trick.

 

[redrocker652002]

Are you sure the 3/4 lb corn sugar wasn't for bottling?

I use beet sugar in some of my belgian style recipes, but typically recipes call for the corn sugar to be added just before bottling so that the yeast has something to carbonate with. powdered corn sugar tends to dissolve easier than granulated cane/beet sugar, which is why I assume they use it.

No, I am not sure. I stole the recipe from here and the thread was quite old if I remember right. I have solved the issue I think for now. I have 3/4 pound of Pilsner malt I might use, or I have some Light DME I might use. I think either way I am going to not use the sugar. Funny thing, the recipe posters IBU was at only 50 based on his recipe.. But when I put it in the Brewfather it came out to 80. Wow, quite a difference. So I am going to cut the 60 mins hops by quite a bit to get the IBU closer to 50. What turned out to be a Pliny the Elder turned from a Double IPA to an APA has become a mix, in a way, of stuff I have and adjustments to get the ABV and OG up and the IBU way down. LOL. We shall see.

Here is the original recipe that I was going to use:

Pliny's Midlife Crisis APA (3 Dawg Night recipe)
8 lb 2-Row
.75 lb Carapils
4 oz Caramel 40L
.75 lb Corn Sugar
2 oz Cascade (whole) mash
.5 oz Simcoe 45 min
.5 oz CTZ 30 min
2 oz Centennial 0 min
1 oz Simcoe 0 min
3 oz CTZ 5 day dry hop
1 oz Centennial 5 day dry hop
1 oz Simcoe 5 day dry hop
WLP001 Cal Ale yeast

 

[mac_1103]

Pliny's Midlife Crisis APA (3 Dawg Night recipe)

That recipe is a modification of MoreBeer's Pliny the Elder DIPA clone. The corn sugar is added in the last ten minutes of the boil; it is NOT for bottling. So I guess that this bears repeating in the interest of safety:

12 ounces of corn sugar in a five gallon batch would give you almost 5 volumes of CO2 which will be, shall we say, interesting unless you're using champagne bottles or PET.

 

[rhys333]

Beet sugar is king around here, with American Crystal Sugar nearby in western MN. They grow a massive amount of beets in the Red River valley area of MN and ND. Plus, any store brand table sugar is going to be beet, being that it's cheaper. If you want cane, C&H is sold most everywhere, but it costs more.

IIRC, the processing is different between the two types, with cane sugar being processed using bone ash, and beet sugar processed without it. People with much better taste buds than mine claim they can tell the difference. There's some controversy as to which is "better" for you. Vegans will often choose beet, as it doesn't have the bone ash.

Some people claim that dextrose, being a monosaccharide, is fermented faster by yeast. I don't doubt that but the few times I've used table sugar I honestly couldn't tell the difference.

If I have dextrose, I'll use that for bottling. If not, whatever table sugar I have does the trick.

I keg these days, but when I overshoot my on volume, I'll bottle up the excess in one or two 1L swing tops. I just tip 6g of table sugar into each and it works really well. They carbonate beautifully and I've never had a gusher. Except that one time I had some persistent saison yeast munching away on a low attenuation English mild, but that's another story.