strong mead??? possible???

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WheaYat

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whea yat everybody!!

I been brewin beer but now I gotta itchin for some mead, but I hate sweet alcohol. i never had mead but im under the impression its sweet. ima a whiskey with a sprits of water a few cubes kinda guy. is there anyway to make like a 30-40 proof mead to taste like a dry honey/ bourbon. is there any yeast that could handle that high ABV? maybe adding some oak chips or cubes to give it a more oaky bourbon feel? how many lbs of honey to gallons of water? and should I pitch double the amount of yeast to take care of the sugars? any one have a recipe for a strong mead? hope this ain't a silly question. just thought about it. thanks an God Bless
 
Lots of mead can be made dry 0.990 or os....

You can get a mead to ~18% (36 proof)....

3-3.5lb/gallon of honey will get you there, with EC-1118 yeast. Lots of nutrients, lots of aeration early on.....

It'll take some time. (and my math may be wrong about amounts of honey).

Oak compliments meads nicely, as do fruits!
 
very nice!!! thanks bra! I will wait to see if anyone else can chime in but I defiantly appreciate the help! God Bless

oh when u say lots of yeast nutrients? what are we talkin here?
 
because honey and water doesn't have a lot of nitrogen and other stuff - you should really go to your homebrew store and pick up some DAP (Di-ammonium nitrate, or something), or some commercial Fermax-K type products.

It's not absoultely needed; but you'll have a faster and more thorough fermentation....
 
ok cool! my last 2 questions to ya if u don't mind.??? 1.) is it possible to make an average mead. I'm assuming with an OG of 1.090 or so. then pitch the yeast. once that yeast Is done pitch another yeast and then rack over a lil oak for a few weeks? i guess I'm askin, pitching two yeasts at separate times, so when ones all used up the second can be thrown in to eat up some more sugars in turn a lil more ABV?

2) how much oak for a gallon of mead ? I have French oak chips. I was thinkin 1/2 oz for 2 weeks? or should I use cubes since the aging is so much longer. Im just goin off my beer brewing knowledge I guess. lol
 
You're gonna need more than 1.090 if you want to get to 18%.

You need to remember that it's total alcohol that hurts yeast, not time. So it's not like you can pitch some yeast - get it up to ~14%, then pitch more yeast and get it up to 28% ABV.....

You're best bet is to shoot for 1.100.....with EC-1118 that should get you down to the dryness you want....
 
coolio! thank Mac! I realize It wouldn't double if I pitched twice I was just sayin would it be easier to squeeze a lil more out of the must before I went an tried to ferment a sky-high OG that the yeast wouldnt even be able to live in. but I do see ur point. 14% is good, hell I just don't want sugary sweet liquor. 13-15% would be nice
 
I have made several with EC-118 that went to 15-18% with just a bit of nutrient and nothing more.......swirled the carboy once a day the first week! Ec-118 Is hungry!
 
3 - 3.5 lbs of honey per gal is right on, but add about 2 oz of strong tea per gal to add tannins to keep the yeasties happy and healthy. Learned this reading H. E. Bravery's book "Home Brewing Without Fail." It's a good book for beginning mead and cider makers. Very simple and straight forward.
 
thanks everybody! all the ideas look good to me! :)

the distiller yeast idea looks interesting. and "Rockape" when u say tea? do u mean tea bags? just toss em in or tear them open an put the tea leaves straight in the carboy? adding them to primary or secondary? u actually want to add tannins? must take a long time to mellow out? I don't understand this I guess that's why I'm intrigued ! lol
 
shanes66charger said:
I have made several with EC-118 that went to 15-18% with just a bit of nutrient and nothing more.......swirled the carboy once a day the first week! Ec-118 Is hungry!

what was your honey to water ratio if u don't mind me asking. u also say swirl the Carboy? is mead like beer, in the aspect of not wanting to add oxygen after the initial aeration? I see u say swirl, not shake of course.
 
In mead it is actually beneficial to aerate the must at least once / day for the first week or so. Helps keep the yeasties happy. You don't need to worry about oxidation like you do beer.....why, I don't know.
 
roadymi said:
In mead it is actually beneficial to aerate the must at least once / day for the first week or so. Helps keep the yeasties happy. You don't need to worry about oxidation like you do beer.....why, I don't know.

oh ok bro thanks!
 
In mead it is actually beneficial to aerate the must at least once / day for the first week or so. Helps keep the yeasties happy. You don't need to worry about oxidation like you do beer.....why, I don't know.

You do have to worry about oxidation, but since the fermentation can be going to 12, 15 or even 18%, the yeast needs more O2, and you have a much longer window before the O2 you add will no longer be absorbed by reproducing yeast cells. If you add more than the population will use, you're still screwed.
 
You do have to worry about oxidation, but since the fermentation can be going to 12, 15 or even 18%, the yeast needs more O2, and you have a much longer window before the O2 you add will no longer be absorbed by reproducing yeast cells. If you add more than the population will use, you're still screwed.

While this seems to hold true in practice, any clue as to why? Oxygen will keep yeast in aerobic activity as opposed to anaerobic (where ethyl alcohol is produced) which beer brewers clearly prefer. In beer brewing, you want to oxygenate to allow the yeast proper health and viability to take on the job of converting sugars into ethyl alcohol in anaerobic activity, but not to continue aerating after the start of fermentation (or at least once it's kicked into high gear).

Why not use yeast starters and higher cell counts like brewing?

If it's really about revitalizing the yeast (which can be inferred from the staggered additions), why not pump pure oxygen into the partially fermented must until fermentation is mostly completed? Would this not be more effective?
 
Randar said:
If it's really about revitalizing the yeast (which can be inferred from the staggered additions), why not pump pure oxygen into the partially fermented must until fermentation is mostly completed? Would this not be more effective?

The must has an O2 saturation limit, and let's say that total saturation limit is (theoretically) .5% of the total volume of of the must, and the yeast only procure and uptake 50% of that total O2, because their at the end of their sugar supply or at their ABV tolerance, your must is still left with 50% of it's total O2 content, and with no way to ever get tid of that O2. That's why most only aerate up to the 1/3 Sugar Break. (or 50% sugar depletion )

Jonas
 
Oxygen will keep yeast in aerobic activity as opposed to anaerobic (where ethyl alcohol is produced) which beer brewers clearly prefer. In beer brewing, you want to oxygenate to allow the yeast proper health and viability to take on the job of converting sugars into ethyl alcohol in anaerobic activity, but not to continue aerating after the start of fermentation (or at least once it's kicked into high gear).

First of all, oxygen/air do not keep the yeast in aerobic activity. Fermentation is an anaerobic process, and the presence of high concentrations of sugar turn off the enzymes that allow aerobic metabolism of sugar in yeast (known as the Crabtree Effect)

Oxygen is needed by yeast to produce sterols and longer fatty acids that are needed to maintain the health of the cell membrane, so that you can have the maximal number of divisions while maintaining maximal tolerance to ethanol. It may also help them reduce the number of shorter-chain fatty acids which happen to be yeast toxins. There is much good data on wine fermentations that show that without aeration (or supplementation of sterols and fatty acids) fermentation tends to be incomplete, with sugar left over and less alcohol produced.

Oxygen requirements for complete fermentation are not terribly high (only about 10 mg/L). It works best if added toward the end of exponential growth - I rationalize this by figuring that after dividing multiple times, the yeast need to replenish those sterols. SO, giving the O2/air around day 2 seems to be optimal.

We often give much more air than this and I have begun to question that practice. While mead (especially traditionals) may be less prone to oxidative damage than beer (and probably wine), they can still be harmed by excessive oxygen. Although I have not seen studies that compare it side by side, I have wondered if doing less aeration might be better in many cases; certainly for melomels, I think it probably is.

Why not use yeast starters and higher cell counts like brewing?

You can use starters or large biomass pitches and have successful fermentations, and building a starter essentially allows you to oxygenate a smaller volume of your must (allowing that sterol production) so that the remainder of the batch is protected. However, there is data from wine studies that show you can have stuck fermentations even after large biomass pitches. That may possibly be due to insufficient alcohol tolerance from lack of adequate sterol production, and/or lack of adaption to the increasing alcohol.

Also doing a little aeration is much easier and takes less time than building starters.

If it's really about revitalizing the yeast (which can be inferred from the staggered additions), why not pump pure oxygen into the partially fermented must until fermentation is mostly completed? Would this not be more effective?

You can use pure O2, but this can supersaturate the must (up to around 26 mg/L at least for a short time) where the normal O2 saturation using air is about 8 mg/L. Using O2 may then saturate the must with more O2 than the yeast need, and anytime that more O2 is given than the yeast can use, the potential for oxidative damage exists. In practice, the active yeast tend to maintain a reductive Redox balance in an active fermentation which is one reason why open fermentations of wine and mead can be done while producing great results and why multiple aerations up through the 1/2 fermentation point (and beyond) can be done and still have really good results. Nevertheless, I am tending toward less aeration these days and so far so good.

Medsen
 
First of all, oxygen/air do not keep the yeast in aerobic activity. Fermentation is an anaerobic process, and the presence of high concentrations of sugar turn off the enzymes that allow aerobic metabolism of sugar in yeast (known as the Crabtree Effect)

Now that you mention it that sounds very familiar.


You can use starters or large biomass pitches and have successful fermentations, and building a starter essentially allows you to oxygenate a smaller volume of your must (allowing that sterol production) so that the remainder of the batch is protected. However, there is data from wine studies that show you can have stuck fermentations even after large biomass pitches. That may possibly be due to insufficient alcohol tolerance from lack of adequate sterol production, and/or lack of adaption to the increasing alcohol.

Also doing a little aeration is much easier and takes less time than building starters.

Ok, again drawing from my brewing experience and very limited wine/mead experience, this still leaves me with the feeling of an incomplete answer. In brewing, both home and commercial brewers strive to pitch very specific yeast cell counts based on both specific research and experience with the given yeast and brew styles. The goal being to have a fast & complete fermentation that finishes before the yeast become overly stressed. This is the purpose of both specific yeast volume/biomass, yeast nutrient, and aeration (to help the yeast be as healthy as possible heading into peak fermentation). The point that large initial pitching rate can still result in a stuck fermentation is not really relevant without more detail and controlled study (which very well may exist). Stuck fermentations rarely have any relation to initial pitching rate in my experience and readings. Yeast quality/health, aeration, nutrients, fermentable sugars, etc are almost always more important in terms of avoiding stuck fermentation.

It just seems this is not focused on as specifically in wine and mead making (again, I have no visibility to commercial operations so I may be off base going only by what I see on the various forums). Ken writes about staggered nutrient additions and the periodic aeration (usually stirring as opposed to pure O2 injection), but the focus seems to be entirely away from the initial yeast volume aside from the "1 pack or 2 packs" type of statements.

To me at least, it seems a somewhat inconsistent message. Of course, I am probably still missing one or more key points. Perhaps wine yeasts don't put out as many off flavors as beer yeasts or they are better at cleaning up after themselves?
 
Pitch rates with wines and meads may not be as critical as they are in beer making. There are some situations, such as Ice wines and high gravity fermentations where a higher pitch rate has been shown to produce more-complete fermentations (0.5 grams per liter rather than 0.25 grams per liter). There have also be studies showing that at lower gravity grape musts (20 Brix), pitching a higher rate (0.5 g/L) produced a higher level of esters (which is probably desirable). Very high pitch rates (around 4.7 g/L) may produce stuck fermentations (with a lot of esters) - it is surmised that the large population creates effective nutritional deficiency during stationary phase. Overall though, I don't think there is nearly as much data with wines/meads when it comes to pitch rates as you see in the brewing world and this is probably because empirically it hasn't seemed to make as much impact. Personally, I'd be very interested to see it studied more. My original point, however, was just to say that starters or large pitches may not necessarily work better than a properly aerated normal pitch.

I would say that wine yeast are capable of producing really bad off flavors and aromas if they are unhappy, and the fermentation conditions is wine/mead are much harsher than in beer, so good management really helps.
 
if you want something strong you should use distillers yeast or turbo yeast those bad boys will get you up to 20% ABV in 1 week and have the proper nutrients included.
If you want it stronger after that you could freeze concentrate it using this technique:
http://homedistiller.org/notstill.htm

Freeze concentration will also concentrate residual sugars, and will definitely increase your perceived sweetness (which the OP says he doesn't like)...this may be less of an issue with a completely bone dry mead. While I have used this technique (on a braggot that overcarbonated and was almost dangerous to uncap!), I've never done it on a fully dry mead (but it's on my to do list to make a dry show mead, and I'll definitely try this with a few bottles when I do!)

FWIW, with lower ABV's, you should easily be able to achieve a 2-fold, if not a 3-fold increase in ABV with the technique (I took an 11+% braggot to an estimated 34%.). So, if you were to get a mead to 18% with a yeast like 1118, you could theoretically get a little over 50%. The link referenced above indicates the maximum to be 40%, and Brew Dog, who has some commercial versions done this way have their highest currently available freeze distilled beer strongest at 41%. They did create a 55% concoction (that you can find at least a couple of threads about here)...I would assume they used some sort of liquid gas to super cool the stuff to get that high...
 
One word of caution. If you raise the ABV above 24% alcohol, the TTB no longer classifies it as wine; it becomes a spirit. As such, it is no longer covered under the home wine making exemption and it is illegal to produce.

While no one may come knocking at your door, if you choose to do this, you may not want to advertise your activity in public forums.
 
Personally, I'd be very interested to see it studied more.

Ditto that. I think it has a lot to do with the industrial process demands of the macro breweries. The more complete control and understanding of the processes the more consistent they can create their product. Wine and mead makers don't have to make the exact same product across variable ingredient supply from year to year like big breweries do.

My original point, however, was just to say that starters or large pitches may not necessarily work better than a properly aerated normal pitch.

Back to the "normal pitch rate". To me this seems "automagically" arrived at by way of convenience. I highly doubt this is actually the case, I just haven't had exposure to the data (perhaps it is just more closely guarded in the wine making community which is not as open and free with information as the beer brewing industry tends to be?) Total wild ass guess on my part, but I'm just continually stumped by where these assumptions tend to originate from in wine/mead making.

Oh, and we totally hijacked this thread, LOL. Sorry, but this is fun discussion.
 
Just brew a strong tea then let it cool and add to primary. Something about the tannins helps keep the yeast healthy. Mead does take a long time to mellow and mature, but I've found mine quite drinkable at bottling time.
 
One word of caution. If you raise the ABV above 24% alcohol, the TTB no longer classifies it as wine; it becomes a spirit. As such, it is no longer covered under the home wine making exemption and it is illegal to produce.

While no one may come knocking at your door, if you choose to do this, you may not want to advertise your activity in public forums.

With all respect, and at risk of further hijacking the thread, this has been discussed before, and I think you're probably incorrect....at worst it's a grey zone, but likely not illegal:
link
link
link
 
actually freeze concentration or making a really strong wine or beer is completely legal,there is no legal ABV limit,that would be stupid, distilling with a still is illegal.
 
actually freeze concentration or making a really strong wine or beer is completely legal,there is no legal ABV limit,that would be stupid, distilling with a still is illegal.

Freeze concentration at home is not prohibited for beer or winemaking. With beer there is no legal limit to the ABV, as there is no point at which a beer is not considered to "beer." With wines, the TTB (in their less than infinite wisdom) have established that any wine with an ABV greater than 24% is no longer classified as wine (that's for both commercial and home). At that level, a wine becomes classified as "spirit" and cannot be produced without a distillers license.

If you doubt this, contact the TTB directly. I did.

Medsen
 
I made a cherry mead that came out at slightly higher than 19%. I used Champagne yeast. I don't recall using any nutrients or anything else. It took 6 months before it was worth drinking, but at 6 months it was really, really good. The 4 bottles I got out of the gallon I made went quickly at our Christmas party. So yes, you can get it to almost 40 proof! :)
 
Just brew a strong tea then let it cool and add to primary. Something about the tannins helps keep the yeast healthy. Mead does take a long time to mellow and mature, but I've found mine quite drinkable at bottling time.

Does putting brewed tea in a mead during fermentation have an affect on the taste of the finished product?
 
whea yat everybody!!

I been brewin beer but now I gotta itchin for some mead, but I hate sweet alcohol. i never had mead but im under the impression its sweet. ima a whiskey with a sprits of water a few cubes kinda guy. is there anyway to make like a 30-40 proof mead to taste like a dry honey/ bourbon. is there any yeast that could handle that high ABV? maybe adding some oak chips or cubes to give it a more oaky bourbon feel? how many lbs of honey to gallons of water? and should I pitch double the amount of yeast to take care of the sugars? any one have a recipe for a strong mead? hope this ain't a silly question. just thought about it. thanks an God Bless

why don't you feed it at racking time add more honey every time you rack it. I made a Maple honey mead with K1v-1116 and fed it over 3 rackings to a finished mead at 21% alc I still have a bottle left that is 5 years old, it was awesome at 4 years so I'm saving it for a special occasion
 
Adding the tea does not change the flavor except by attenuation, unless you use some kind of herbal tea. I've read posts of guys using earl grey, chamomile, and cinnamon spice teas to influence flavor.
 
There are definitely ways to make a dry, high alc mead. The oak chips are a good idea for sure. We recently made one five gallon mead with 12 lbs orange blossom honey and 14 lbs of good quality mixed berries, and used Lalvin EC 1118. We are not sweet drink lovers either, and this ended up being fantastic. The berry flavor is dominant, but it's not particularly sweet. It also finished out around 16-17%, its hard to tell for sure because getting the OG is hard with that many berries. The Lalvin EC 1118 has an alcohol tolerance of about 18% and is a good all-around choice.
 
There are definitely ways to make a dry, high alc mead. The oak chips are a good idea for sure. We recently made one five gallon mead with 12 lbs orange blossom honey and 14 lbs of good quality mixed berries, and used Lalvin EC 1118. We are not sweet drink lovers either, and this ended up being fantastic. The berry flavor is dominant, but it's not particularly sweet. It also finished out around 16-17%, its hard to tell for sure because getting the OG is hard with that many berries. The Lalvin EC 1118 has an alcohol tolerance of about 18% and is a good all-around choice.

coolio!!!! how long was it until u were drinkin it? also how long did u let it sit on the berries? I'm thinkin of peaches and oak. oh did u use and yeast energizer?
 
coolio!!!! how long was it until u were drinkin it? also how long did u let it sit on the berries? I'm thinkin of peaches and oak. oh did u use and yeast energizer?

one of my favorites is a White Grape and Peach Pyment
clover honey works great and it gets better and better with age
I have a 6 year old bottle which was good at 1 year great at 2 even better at 3 and after 4 awesome is not giving it enough credit
 
If you look around the net, there's a number of threads, articles and pieces of commentary that talk about this.

There are few yeasts that will naturally exceed the 20% mark (give or take 1 or 2 %).

Those often have compromises attached, like the resulting taste of the ferment, etc (I don't favour EC-1118, it's good for what it was developed for i.e. champagne, but seems to leave quite a bland taste when used for fermenting other musts). Yes, there are a couple of "turbo's" that claim like 23% ABV, but again, the compromise is often difficult to manage fermentation.

If you really want something strong, then just get some everclear and stir in some very strong flavoured honey. It will reduce the %ABV, but you'd probably still get something in excess of 80%

There's also some research that's been done into the highest level that produces the best tastes/flavours - I seem to recall that it was done with whiskey (Scottish ones), and the best flavours, aroma etc were released when it was watered down to about 20%

Also, if you're thinking specifically of meads, then don't forget, the higher the alcohol content, then invariably the longer it takes to age or the greater the amount of other additives that are needed to make it taste good......

S'up to you what it is that you actually want to achieve though, and just how much effort you're prepared to put into the ferment........

regards

fatbloke
 
yes, I see said the blind man to the deaf dog. lol
na bra, I totally understand! thank u guys so much for the detailed replys an ur time. I am thinkin of doing an slightly above average mead. not gonna try an get crazy for the first one. I didnt think there would be so many variables when I originally asked the question, u know what I'm sayin. God Bless and thanks again.
 
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