Strong Bitter with invert, black de-bittered for coloring

[Gadjobrinus]

First, mods, posted this in recipes. Believe given the fact it's a question on a potential recipe, believe it belongs better here. Apologies for the double up.

Just a check on a strong bitter, using invert and black de-bittered for coloring. Hoping especially for feedback from British brewers, as to traditional bitter.

Strong Bitter

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 13.00 Wort Size (Gal): 13.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 23.11
Anticipated OG: 1.058 Plato: 14.31
Anticipated SRM: 16.0
Anticipated IBU: 39.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 90 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 2.00 Gallons Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 16.00 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.047 SG 11.73 Plato

Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
82.2 19.00 lbs. Warminster - Maris Otter England 1.037 3
3.2 0.75 lbs. Crystal 135-160 - Hugh Baird Great Britain 1.030 150
2.2 0.50 lbs. Crystal 77 Great Britain 1.035 77
4.9 1.13 lbs. Invert Sugar No.3 1.036 65
1.0 0.23 lbs. De-Bittered Black Belgium 1.010 550
6.5 1.50 lbs. Torrefied Wheat Great Britain 1.036 3

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.25 oz. Wye Challenger Pellet 7.60 31.1 60 min.
1.50 oz. Wye Challenger Pellet 7.60 4.1 10 min.
0.50 oz. Wye Northdown Pellet 5.00 0.9 10 min.
1.75 oz. First Gold Pellet 6.80 3.6 5 min.
4.00 oz. First Gold Pellet 6.80 0.0 0 min.
2.75 oz. First Gold Pellet 6.80 0.0 Dry Hop


Yeast
-----

TT or CC - leaning towards TT this time around


Water Profile - moderately mineralized with SO4 ande Cl at equity at 250; Ca perhaps 150.
-------------

Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Name: Extra Special Bitter Mash

Total Grain Lbs: 23.11
Total Water Qts: 24.00 - Before Additional Infusions
Total Water Gal: 6.00 - Before Additional Infusions

Tun Thermal Mass: 0.00
Grain Temp: 70.00 F


Step Rest Start Stop Heat Infuse Infuse Infuse
Step Name Time Time Temp Temp Type Temp Amount Ratio
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saccharification 5 60 149 149 Infuse 164 24.00 1.04
Mashout 5 15 170 170 Infuse 210 15.03 1.69


Total Water Qts: 39.03 - After Additional Infusions
Total Water Gal: 9.76 - After Additional Infusions
Total Mash Volume Gal: 11.61 - After Additional Infusions

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.
All infusion amounts are in Quarts.
All infusion ratios are Quarts/Lbs.

 

[IslandLizard]

I've removed your duplicate posting from the Recipes Forum.
Let's hope you'll get your answers here. We can alway move it to Recipes at some point, just ask.

Recipe looks pretty solid to me, but am clueless what TT or CC yeast means.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I've removed your double posting from the Recipes Forum.
Let's hope you'll get your answers here. We can alway move it to Recipes at some point, just ask.

Recipe looks pretty solid to me, but am clueless what TT or CC yeast means.

On the yeasts, sorry, those are yeasts sold in England (Brewlab). Northern English yeasts.

 

[IslandLizard]

When used mostly for color and some (subtle) flavor, I prefer to steep very dark malts on the side and add the black potion after the boil, when the wort has chilled to around 170F, and let it pasteurize there for 5 minutes. It prevents cooked coffee flavors I sometimes detect when boiled for an hour or longer.

Since you're using such a small amount I doubt one could taste much of it either way.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

When used mostly for color and some (subtle) flavor, I prefer to steep very dark malts on the side and add the black potion after the boil, when the wort has chilled to around 170F, and let it pasteurize there for 5 minutes. It prevents cooked coffee flavors I sometimes detect when boiled for an hour or longer.

Since you're using such a small amount I doubt one could taste much of it either way.

I hear you, Island. Thanks - I get your discernment here and would be an interesting method to use. This may or may not sound lame, but in the spirit of numerous SMaSH studies I hope to do, I'm looking forward to trying out something like this comparing the black malt as coloring agent (in this quantities, nothing more than 1%, and likely less.....maybe 0.6% or so) to the Brupak caramel I've got. Mainly also looking forward to making and using the invert. I've never used it before, never used anything but malt or torrefied raw grain, so this will be really interesting.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

All looks good, given the caveat about black for colouring - possibly steeping it, possibly knocking it down a bit (and obviously steeping gives you the option to control how much you add) - vs caramel.

I guess the only other comment would be on appreciating the Warminster vs the amount of crystal - the crystal is the right amount for the style, but maybe would swamp the Warminster a bit, but I guess you could always either mash the Warminster for 20-30 min, take a sample for a saucepan beer and then add the specialities, or just do a separate saucepan SMaSH to fully appreciate the Warminster.

Mebbe mash the odd degree higher?

Am I blind or can I just not see the fermentation schedule?

 

[HTH1975]

That darker crystal (for me) isn’t really necessary. I’d go with 5-7% Crystal 60, plus 10-15% no.3 invert sugar, and 5% torrified wheat, with Maris Otter for the rest. If you really want it brown, adding cold-steeped black malt could work, or try adding it directly to the boil near the end (dehusked black malt too).

I’d want more of the bittering IBUs at the start of the boil, maybe 20 IBUs, with the rest at 15 mins, then flameout for a 30 min hop stand. Dry hops to taste, but not strictly required (or commonplace) in British bitters, and only in very small quantities when this was used historically.

 

[HTH1975]

Regarding water, if you’re wanting a strong bitter, you’ll want at least 1.5:1 sulphite:chloride. I’d suggest 350ppm sulphate and 200ppm chloride. You’ll naturally get decent calcium levels if you’re adding calcium chloride and gypsum (calcium sulphate) to get your brewing liquor right.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thanks Northern.

Firstly, thanks in general you guys on cold steeping the dark greens. Not known much about it but you've got me interested. How would you compare the results of just using something like Dingeman's de-bittered, or Carafa III, for color adjustment in small amounts, to the cold steeping method? Have to say, I'm a fan of just dropping grist all in together, if doing so won't bring an inferior result.

Thanks too on the Warminster's nature. Given your comparative comments with the Fawcett, and this 5.5% crystal, where would you pull the crystal - and do you feel the C135-160 is wrong, for this base malt?

Finally, fermentation schedule, yeah, sorry. I intend on this one being a cask ale, and a Black Sheep clone in fermentation process. If not, it will follow my usual schedule: Pitch at 64F free rise to 68F hold to .5P above terminal, dry hop slurry, hold x 72 hours, crash 72 hours, rack. Fine with Isinglass, rack, force carbonate at 2.0 volumes, less if I can convince friends to try it.

Overnight, I actually tweaked the recipe - decided that in general I'm favoring complication over complexity; and seeking certain comments - "marmalade" - by saying more is better. Anyway, someone stripped down:

Strong Bitter

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

08-C English Pale Ale, Extra Special/Strong Bitter

Min OG: 1.048 Max OG: 1.072
Min IBU: 30 Max IBU: 60
Min Clr: 6 Max Clr: 18 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 13.00 Wort Size (Gal): 13.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 23.00
Anticipated OG: 1.058 Plato: 14.29
Anticipated SRM: 14.4
Anticipated IBU: 39.9
Brewhouse Efficiency: 90 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 2.00 Gallons Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 16.00 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.047 SG 11.72 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
82.6 19.00 lbs. Warminster - Maris Otter England 1.037 3
3.3 0.75 lbs. Crystal 135-160 - Hugh Baird Great Britain 1.030 150
2.2 0.50 lbs. Crystal 77 Great Britain 1.035 77
4.9 1.13 lbs. Invert Sugar No.3 1.036 65
0.5 0.13 lbs. De-Bittered Black Belgium 1.010 550
6.5 1.50 lbs. Torrefied Wheat Great Britain 1.036 3

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.75 oz. First Gold Pellet 6.80 37.5 90 min.
1.00 oz. First Gold Pellet 6.80 2.5 10 min.
2.75 oz. First Gold Pellet 6.80 0.0 Dry Hop

-May run additional whole hop FG through HB, in which case I'd forego both the 10 min. and dry hop additions.


Yeast
-----

Brewlab TT, or WLP006

Water Profile
-------------

same as above.

Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Name: Extra Special Bitter Mash

Total Grain Lbs: 23.00
Total Water Qts: 24.00 - Before Additional Infusions
Total Water Gal: 6.00 - Before Additional Infusions

Tun Thermal Mass: 0.00
Grain Temp: 70.00 F


Step Rest Start Stop Heat Infuse Infuse Infuse
Step Name Time Time Temp Temp Type Temp Amount Ratio
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saccharification 5 60 149 149 Infuse 164 24.00 1.04
Mashout 5 15 170 170 Infuse 210 15.02 1.70


Total Water Qts: 39.01 - After Additional Infusions
Total Water Gal: 9.75 - After Additional Infusions
Total Mash Volume Gal: 11.59 - After Additional Infusions

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.
All infusion amounts are in Quarts.
All infusion ratios are Quarts/Lbs.


***

Northern, I'm not used to holding a 149F mash; certainly not one longer than 60 minutes. Seeing a lot of those, e.g., Fuller's, but others as well. In fact I'd often mash quite high, 158F, and hold that for 1 hour. Or, a ramped mash of 146, hold x 20, climb 1F/min. to 156, hold an additional 30 minutes. But drinkability is paramount to me this time around, the feeling you want more and not stuffed. What are you thinking?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

That darker crystal (for me) isn’t really necessary. I’d go with 5-7% Crystal 60, plus 10-15% no.3 invert sugar, and 5% torrified wheat, with Maris Otter for the rest. If you really want it brown, adding cold-steeped black malt could work, or try adding it directly to the boil near the end (dehusked black malt too).

I’d want more of the bittering IBUs at the start of the boil, maybe 20 IBUs, with the rest at 15 mins, then flameout for a 30 min hop stand. Dry hops to taste, but not strictly required (or commonplace) in British bitters, and only in very small quantities when this was used historically.

I don't know where I started preferring the darker crystals overall. And I don't quite remember why. My go to was C60, sometimes 40, sometimes even 10-20. I think back then I liked orange hues in my pales, somewhere around 8-9 SRM.

More and more I've enjoyed the redder quality that obtains using these darker crystals, and I like the "baked dark fruit" quality, baked plums, raisins, in moderation, as well. I'm pulling together and English IPA that will be 9 SRM predicted, and it will be nice to play in these ranges.

On the water, thanks as well. Going for a northern style, I was wanting a bit more parity between SO4 and Cl. Ca at 220, regardless. I usually go with 325 SO4 and 209 Cl. This last batch of weirdness felt a bit harsh and I cannot isolate it out yet. I should probably keep the water where it is and isolate one thing at a time. I think I might still be working out the kinks on my new system. Even outside in an uninsulated barn at -10F, 3 a.m., triple decoction, keggle/no pumps anywhere, I put out some really nice brews (one winning 2nd US Midwest). My point being I've yet to top what I was doing, so have to find what.

 

[kevin58]

One of your go-to sources for English beers is Ron Pattinson's blog: Shut Up About Barclay Perkins... http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/

Here's an article about strong bitter in the mid 20th century: http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/03/strong-bitter-ca-1955.html

And some info about and a recipe for Tetley's Bitter in 1945: http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2014/02/lets-brew-wednesday-1945-tetleys-bitter.html

 

[mabrungard]

Having experienced the utility of dark invert sugars in beer at a talk given by Ron Pattinson, it really does make a difference. I would seek more of your color with that invert. It is an effective way to darken without roastiness.

If you want your beer to have a minerally note, then having high sulfate AND chloride is the way to go. If you want to taste the beer without too much water character, then elevated sulfate with modest chloride works well. I like sulfate in the 150 to 200 ppm range in a nice Bitter.

 

[HTH1975]

If you’re wanting marlalade, then First Gold is certainly the right move. You’ll need to shift your IBUs more evenly imo if you want to get lots of that marmalade character in your beer from the 10 min (and dry hop) additions. Personally, though I love First Gold, I like to balance it out with something like Bramling Cross otherwise it can get too much.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Having experienced the utility of dark invert sugars in beer at a talk given by Ron Pattinson, it really does make a difference. I would seek more of your color with that invert. It is an effective way to darken without roastiness.

If you want your beer to have a minerally note, then having high sulfate AND chloride is the way to go. If you want to taste the beer without too much water character, then elevated sulfate with modest chloride works well. I like sulfate in the 150 to 200 ppm range in a nice Bitter.

Thank you Martin, great to know. I'm not used to sugar at all, so I am trying to keep it at 9% tops. Just a psychological barrier, I don't know that I've read anyone speaking of "cidery" at this percent.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

If you’re wanting marlalade, then First Gold is certainly the right move. You’ll need to shift your IBUs more evenly imo if you want to get lots of that marmalade character in your beer from the 10 min (and dry hop) additions. Personally, though I love First Gold, I like to balance it out with something like Bramling Cross otherwise it can get too much.

OK, that's a great note, HTH. I was trying to simplify but I know very little about this hop yet. I'll go back in and basically do what I had just before this iteration - 20, 10, 5, knockout/hopstand x 30, WP, settle; and dry. Once my stocks of pellets are gone, I plan on implementing a HB and converting to whole leaf as much as possible. Thankfully I've seen FG available here in leaf.

Northern got me going with BX. I've yet to use it. I'm more or less going on a series of hop trials with a best bitter strength, very simple grain bill, to get to know these hops at least somewhat. After, thanks on the note, too, on mixing FG with others.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Just on the colour thing, it's worth noting that Untappd gives you the ability to see what foreign beers actually look like on the bar (albeit imaged by drunk people on their phone camera in bad lighting). So in Yorkshire you might typically be drinking Sheep (3.8%), Terrier (4.2%), Landlord (4.3%) or the somewhat darker Heineken/Theakston XB (4.5%). Note that Untappd categorisation follows the general confusion in the UK that follows from the whole ESB/Strong Bitter thing not being really recognised as a style, so XB is called a Strong Bitter although most people would call it a Best.

Thinking of some breweries off the top of my head you have eg Rooster's Cream (4.7%), Duck's Courage (5%, admittedly just over the border), Sheep IPA (5.1% - the English IPAs tend to get lumped in here) and Pale Rider (5.2%). HTH can probably suggest more to look at, he's closer to the action.

Is anyone looking at those and thinking "Ooh, I must put a load of colourant in my beer"? SRM 14.4 may be within BJCP range but is high for Yorkshire. Even with invert - work out the flavours you want and use that to guide your additions, colour is an unimportant detail that is easily fixed with caramel or black. But unless it's green or has pink polka dots, it really doesn't matter what colour your beer is, so I don't normally bother.

BJCP don't actually give any Yorkshire examples other than a Sam Smith export beer I've never seen, but look at Bass (4.4%), Ram Rod (5.2%) and Orkney Blast (6%).

Since you are going for a more Yorkshire style, then I'd tend to pare back the heavy crystal - what you had was kinda half-way between north and south. Wrt to Warminster, all I was trying to point out was that if one of the aims of the brew was to see what Warminster brought to the party, then covering it in crystal wasn't going to help that aim, regardless of whether it was right for the beer. You'll know that I've suggested 2:1 invert:crystal in the past as a more Northern ratio, although 1:1 is fine as a starting point, and I might drop to #2 rather than #3.

I think your dry hop is fine, I tend to dry hop with British hops a bit more than most people. My standard mash is 66C so 151F but it's not something I've experimented with much.

I thought some of the water adjustments would raise some eyebrows. All I can say is, if I had to choose one water profile, it would be the one suggested by the brewer who is doing it for real in Yorkshire....

 

[HTH1975]

OK, that's a great note, HTH. I was trying to simplify but I know very little about this hop yet. I'll go back in and basically do what I had just before this iteration - 20, 10, 5, knockout/hopstand x 30, WP, settle; and dry. Once my stocks of pellets are gone, I plan on implementing a HB and converting to whole leaf as much as possible. Thankfully I've seen FG available here in leaf.

Northern got me going with BX. I've yet to use it. I'm more or less going on a series of hop trials with a best bitter strength, very simple grain bill, to get to know these hops at least somewhat. After, thanks on the note, too, on mixing FG with others.

If I could make a suggestion. The hopping schedules on English beers are much simpler than modern American ales. For a bitter, you could literally use a bittering addition at the start, then at 30 mins - not all beers used a flameout addition (some historically used a small dry hop addition).

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I think this is where I'd allow for a bit of modern interpretation - life is always better for some Goldings at the back end, Styrians will do. Those late additions only make sense though if you have the capability to cool your wort quickly, which wasn't always the case historically.

 

[HTH1975]

I think this is where I'd allow for a bit of modern interpretation - life is always better for some Goldings at the back end, Styrians will do. Those late additions only make sense though if you have the capability to cool your wort quickly, which wasn't always the case historically.

Agreed - I got caught in the middle of replying with my (nearly two) son having a meltdown.

So... When I make a bitter, let’s say 1.045 OG, 1.010 FG, 35 IBUs, I tend to go with 20 IBUs at the start, then a 30 minute addition (10 IBUs) then flameout (5 IBUs). I don’t normally dry hop this style, but I don’t suppose 25g of Styrian Goldings for 3 days would harm if you want some aroma.

If you want the malts to shine, you could tip the style towards Scottish bitter styles (60/70 Shilling). Aim for 25 IBUs with the same OG/FG as above using a single bittering addition at the start.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Wow, thanks guys, this is a goodly amount of help. I'm tweaking things and taking it in. In the past, I experimented with extreme back-loading of hops, all hop bursting or WP additions. It was an interesting experiment but way over the top in "character." Almost like chewing resin.

I've been guided, I think maybe it's been Wheeler? Of keeping late hops to 25-30% of the total. In the recipe below, that actually pulls it back using your IBU guidelines, HTH (thanks). It may be that the hops and IBU's they have, but for a 45 L batch, was getting 5.5 oz of FG at 10 min., easily swamping the rest of the hop bill.

HTH, definitely looking for a hop-balanced ale, but only "just" so - malty sweetness is there too, and hop flavor and character is subtle. Decidedly getting away from the American taste for strong hop throughout.


FWIW, still want to think on what you guys are suggesting. And I still have a 100% FG recipe, but this one is more likely - and I have many others to play with, including the various "styrians."

I should note I bagged the de-bittered black. Using Inv. 3, that still gets me in at 12+, which is pleasing to me. It will also be a starting point to test Inv. 3 v. 2, and to see what minute additions of the de-bittered may or may not do. Northern, that site is quite helpful. Looking forward to poking around more.

Strong Bitter

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

08-C English Pale Ale, Extra Special/Strong Bitter

Min OG: 1.048 Max OG: 1.072
Min IBU: 30 Max IBU: 60
Min Clr: 6 Max Clr: 18 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 13.00 Wort Size (Gal): 13.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 22.75
Anticipated OG: 1.058 Plato: 14.24
Anticipated SRM: 12.8
Anticipated IBU: 39.4
Brewhouse Efficiency: 90 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 2.00 Gallons Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 16.00 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.047 SG 11.68 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
79.1 18.00 lbs. Warminster - Maris Otter England 1.037 3
9.9 2.25 lbs. Invert Sugar No.3 1.036 65
5.5 1.25 lbs. Crystal 77 Great Britain 1.035 77
5.5 1.25 lbs. Torrefied Wheat Great Britain 1.036 3

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.75 oz. Fuggle Pellet 3.50 5.3 90 min.
0.75 oz. Northdown Pellet 5.00 7.5 90 min.
1.50 oz. Wye Challenger Pellet 7.60 22.9 90 min.
1.50 oz. First Gold Pellet 6.80 3.7 10 min.
1.00 oz. First Gold Pellet 6.80 0.0 0 min.
2.25 oz. First Gold Pellet 6.80 0.0 Dry Hop


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP006 Bedford British Ale, TT or CC


Water Profile
-------------

Profile: Murphy's Strong Bitter
Profile known for:

Calcium(Ca): 220.0 ppm
Magnesium(Mg): 36.0 ppm
Sodium(Na): 6.0 ppm
Sulfate(SO4): 350.0 ppm
Chloride(Cl): 209.0 ppm
biCarbonate(HCO3): 30.6 ppm

pH: 0.00


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Name: Extra Special Bitter Mash

Total Grain Lbs: 22.75
Total Water Qts: 24.00 - Before Additional Infusions
Total Water Gal: 6.00 - Before Additional Infusions

Tun Thermal Mass: 0.00
Grain Temp: 67.00 F


Step Rest Start Stop Heat Infuse Infuse Infuse
Step Name Time Time Temp Temp Type Temp Amount Ratio
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saccharification 5 60 151 151 Infuse 166 24.00 1.05
Mashout 5 15 170 170 Infuse 210 13.56 1.65


Total Water Qts: 37.56 - After Additional Infusions
Total Water Gal: 9.39 - After Additional Infusions
Total Mash Volume Gal: 11.21 - After Additional Infusions

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.
All infusion amounts are in Quarts.
All infusion ratios are Quarts/Lbs.


Notes
-----

Getting assumed .779 BU:GU. Assuming 15% utilization in WP, 1.0 WP FG gives me additional 5.9 IBU for total of 45.2, or 77.9 BU:GU.

 

[HTH1975]

I don’t think you’ll get anywhere near 15% utilisation of whirlpool hops. We work on the basis of 7% utilisation on our hop-stand process at flameout (or steam-off in our case).

On my homebrew kit I assume 3-5%

 

[HTH1975]

The above is Brewdog’s Atlantic IPA recipe. Have a look at the hops and grainbill - not dissimilar to yours in some ways.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I don’t think you’ll get anywhere near 15% utilisation of whirlpool hops. We work on the basis of 7% utilisation on our hop-stand process at flameout (or steam-off in our case).

On my homebrew kit I assume 3-5%

The 15% thing I think I must have gotten from Matt Brynildson, of Firestone Walker, who I worked with when he was head brewer at Goose Island. He reports from 22% on his FW system to 15% on a 10 BBL brewpub system. Knowing I wouldn't get that, but without the means to actually measure, I went "conservative," i.e., I wanted rather to undershoot v. overshoot the actual contribution. Maybe I'll pull it down to 10% and go from there.

Just some interesting info. Here, the algorithim is kicking out 11.13% U. Christmas Eve (Merry Christmas, and hoping you have a joyous new year, one and all; peace to all of us) so haven't gone through it much but it's in these pages I think I probably some some comments by or about Matt.

 

[HTH1975]

Thanks for that info on utilisation - very surprised he gets those numbers. Mind, traditional UK brewing processes are quite different to US ones. Our ‘hop stand’ is literally that - turn the heat off and let the hops stew in the wort for a set time (30 minutes in our case) then start casting to FV.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thanks for that info on utilisation - very surprised he gets those numbers. Mind, traditional UK brewing processes are quite different to US ones. Our ‘hop stand’ is literally that - turn the heat off and let the hops stew in the wort for a set time (30 minutes in our case) then start casting to FV.

Thanks to you for this and all the info above, in turn, HTH. Between you and Northern here, you have given ample for me to reconsider what I'm doing. I truly do hope to achieve something of authenticity to your tradition. Just have to break out of a couple decades of doing something a given way.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I think this is where I'd allow for a bit of modern interpretation - life is always better for some Goldings at the back end, Styrians will do. Those late additions only make sense though if you have the capability to cool your wort quickly, which wasn't always the case historically.

Just a query on this notion of quick cooling. To be honest, I felt I had a decent amount of fresh hops (pellets) in the hopstand and whirlpool. I got almost zero character, unless it was buried on an exaggerated sense of nuttiness and roastiness from the malt bill. I don't think so. I never had any issue with getting it in the finished brew in the past. My hop fanatic family was well pleased, and so was I. The only difference I can see is that I manually did everything, and of that, my "WP" was most definitely like HTH's literaly hopstand - they'd steep, then I'm manually WP x 5 min., settle for 20. Great character.

Now, I have pumps everywhere, and lidded vessels. I use an IC which is very efficient, but that's relative.

I wonder if everything is simply evanescing away?

I'm pretty keen on trying something, which is to use up my stores of pellets in bittering and even late hop, WP, stand in the kettle - but rolling the cleared wort over an enclosed, pressure-capable HB put out by stout. I'd use whole leaf here. I'm very intrigued by how well a HB can deliver, given the short contact time. It's also traditional, so there's that. How do you two feel about this idea?

 

[HTH1975]

A hopback is not unheard of in traditional UK breweries - Timothy Taylor do this, and I’m sure I’ve heard of others doing this.

By passing the wort through the hops, then immediately chilling it you ‘should’ have the best chance of locking in that aroma before its boiled off.

I don’t think it’s exactly a ‘stop the press’ moment to say that a combination of hops at flameout plus dry hops will give the best aroma. Exactly how that works in your particular setup will need tweaked over a few brews. I like pellets more for dry hoping as I seem to get more aroma, plus less losses through absorption. Also, they’re easier to weigh-down in a hop bag than whole hops.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

A hopback is not unheard of in traditional UK breweries - Timothy Taylor do this, and I’m sure I’ve heard of others doing this.

By passing the wort through the hops, then immediately chilling it you ‘should’ have the best chance of locking in that aroma before its boiled off.

I don’t think it’s exactly a ‘stop the press’ moment to say that a combination of hops at flameout plus dry hops will give the best aroma. Exactly how that works in your particular setup will need tweaked over a few brews. I like pellets more for dry hoping as I seem to get more aroma, plus less losses through absorption. Also, they’re easier to weigh-down in a hop bag than whole hops.

I make a pellet slurry, which is another thing I learned from Matt. Given that he hates any dry hops staying in solution more than 3 days, the idea is this slurry provides for a rapid steep. Then crash, if not doing a multi-step. Again, I always had great success with this previously, with no pickup when racking. This time, even when starting with the dip tube quite high, it was a PITA as I kept getting hop bits clogging up the line. Never happened before and so again, stumped. THe one difference here is that I started dry hopping in primary, about .5 above terminal. So there was more mass in the vessel. I would have racked into another vessel, previously, not a pressure vessel. And always got clear, really aromatic beer. So, stumped!

Given Black Sheep does no late hopping and only HB's for character, apparently, yep, I'm very intrigued by this, especially as a comparative qualitative and quantitative thing with dry hopping (I just mean how do the aromas and flavors differ, and how strong are they?).

Thanks for the post, HTH. You've given a lot. Did I miss it - are you an English pro?

 

[HTH1975]

I make a pellet slurry, which is another thing I learned from Matt. Given that he hates any dry hops staying in solution more than 3 days, the idea is this slurry provides for a rapid steep. Then crash, if not doing a multi-step. Again, I always had great success with this previously, with no pickup when racking. This time, even when starting with the dip tube quite high, it was a PITA as I kept getting hop bits clogging up the line. Never happened before and so again, stumped. THe one difference here is that I started dry hopping in primary, about .5 above terminal. So there was more mass in the vessel. I would have racked into another vessel, previously, not a pressure vessel. And always got clear, really aromatic beer. So, stumped!

Given Black Sheep does no late hopping and only HB's for character, apparently, yep, I'm very intrigued by this, especially as a comparative qualitative and quantitative thing with dry hopping (I just mean how do the aromas and flavors differ, and how strong are they?).

Thanks for the post, HTH. You've given a lot. Did I miss it - are you an English pro?

The hop slurry method is one I’ve read about and have been meaning to try. Next time I do an IPA I’ll try it. I know that the thinking now is that the majority of the dry hopping aroma is obtained in the first 24 hours - I’m going 3-5 days.

Regarding hop aroma/flavour in English bitters, I think that much of that is yeast-driven. The yeast we’re using traditionally is heavy on esters. Much of that fruitiness that some believe to be hops is just yeast esters, imo. We use open fermentation at work and locking in aroma is via 3g/L of finishing hops. Other than that, it’s pretty basic stuff.

I ‘was’ brewing professionally, but not since around July/August this year as it’s transpired that the brewery was in financial difficulties (now Black Sheep have stepped in to buy the place thankfully). I distill Gin full time though. Hopefully I can get my hand back in brewing part time - depends what happens with this buy out I suppose.