Store Wort for yeast starter

[Daspete]

Hello everyone,

I'm wondering if it's possible to pre-make store Wort to use with yeast starters? I was thinking about making a big batch of wort and sealing it in bottles for later use. Would there be any issue with that? Would it need to be stored cold?

 

[RM-MN]

Wort should be pressure canned or frozen because it is the perfect medium for the growth of botulin.

 

[Daspete]

Ok, thanks for the reply. I saw the wort in can that northern brewer sells and was thinking I could make my own. I appreciate the reply.

 

[ong]

It’s pretty easy to pressure can a large batch at home in quart jars, but yeah, anything above a certain pH needs to be essentially autoclaved to kill Clostridium spores.

 

[Daspete]

Hmm OK, I might have to look into canning. Thanks.

 

[ong]

Hmm OK, I might have to look into canning. Thanks.

Make sure you can in a pressure cooker at 15psi, which allows boil temp to hit 250° — regular water bath canning doesn’t kill all Clostridium spores.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I freeze extra runnings from brew day in milk jugs. When needed, just thaw and use. It's not as easy as room temp storage, but i don't have to worry about botulism.

 

[Shackleford_rusty]

Id have to look at my recipe but i think 2.3oz of dme in one quart jar is a gravity of about 1.040. Also add a pinch of yeast nutrient and a very small hop pellet, also pressure can at 15lb for 15 min. Viola! Ready to use starter wort!

 

[Vale71]

Hello everyone,

I'm wondering if it's possible to pre-make store Wort to use with yeast starters? I was thinking about making a big batch of wort and sealing it in bottles for later use. Would there be any issue with that? Would it need to be stored cold?

It's been done by some brewers with acces to autoclaving equipment. There are small entry-level models that might set you back no more than 1000$. You'll be the judge of whether this is really worth the effort and expense. Any other method will endanger your health so don't even think about it...

 

[JimRausch]

I looked it up- the required pH is below 4.5, which is why beer does not allow botulinum spores to grow, but wort will. Botulinum clostridii growth produces gasses so explains why our grandmas always used to say " if the can is bulging, throw it away". So, if you absolutely can't pressure can, a possible option would be acidify the wort below 4.5 and water bath can. Another possible option is boil, wait a couple days for any spores to unsporulate and reboil. But that's risky, because unless you have a microscope and know how to use it, how are you going to be sure there aren't any spores hanging around?

 

[mongoose33]

I've tried it and it creates a very dark wort, in addition to some strange precipitate. I used it for one starter, and between the very dark smells and the other stuff...I wasn't willing to throw it in a batch of just-brewed wort.

This is what I got; YMMV. I'm back to just boiling 100g of DME in 1 liter of water for my starters.

The jars:



The starter from those jars:



What I'd consider to be a good starter:

 

[JimRausch]

I freeze extra runnings from brew day in milk jugs. When needed, just thaw and use. It's not as easy as room temp storage, but i don't have to worry about botulism.

There is the potential for unsporulation and bacterial growth once you thaw, so if you do freeze, boil it soon after and use it.

 

[tll77]

There is the potential for unsporulation and bacterial growth once you thaw, so if you do freeze, boil it soon after and use it.

Absolutely! Freezing does not kill clostridium spores.

I've tried it and it creates a very dark wort, in addition to some strange precipitate.

I pressure can wort for starters also. I find they come out with a reddish tint, but brilliantly clear aside from the massive trub deposit, which I would guess is a hot break. I use all grain biab to prepare the wort, 1 or so gallons at a time.
I decant the wort into a flask for the starter and decant the spent beer from the yeast before pitch.

Left is a jar that has not yes gone in the canner, right has been canned.

 

[Vale71]

There might also be issues with nutrient availability in autoclaved wort. The higher temperatures might destroy some of the FAN and thus make it sub-optimal for starters. Acidifying below PH 4.5 to prevent botulism is also sub-optimal for yeast.

 

[tll77]

There might also be issues with nutrient availability in autoclaved wort. The higher temperatures might destroy some of the FAN and thus make it sub-optimal for starters. Acidifying below PH 4.5 to prevent botulism is also sub-optimal for yeast.

This is interesting, I hadn't thought of this. I would like to know if this is in fact so. I have been canning the wort as a time saver, but if it is in fact less nutritious for my yeast, I won't be canning it anymore.

I think this calls for side by side starters, one canned and one not.

 

[mongoose33]

Absolutely! Freezing does not kill clostridium spores.





I pressure can wort for starters also. I find they come out with a reddish tint, but brilliantly clear aside from the massive trub deposit, which I would guess is a hot break. I use all grain biab to prepare the wort, 1 or so gallons at a time.
I decant the wort into a flask for the starter and decant the spent beer from the yeast before pitch.
View attachment 598660

Left is a jar that has not yes gone in the canner, right has been canned.

Are you running that canner at 15psi?

 

[IslandLizard]

At times I go through lots of DME for yeast starters. I was thinking of brewing up a 5 gallon batch of double strength starter wort (1.074), use a gallon (or more) right away, and freeze the rest.

I have lots of 48 oz cottage cheese containers I routinely use for freezing leftover crushed tomatoes, soup, chili, and what not. They should also work very well for freezing the concentrated wort. Upon use it gets re-boiled with the same volume of water added to reduce it to normal starter strength (1.037), nutrients added, and chilled right before use, as usual. It doesn't save time and uses 2x more energy since I need to freeze and reboil it, but saves some DME in the end.

The more I think about it the less appeal it seems to have...

 

[IslandLizard]

Acidifying below PH 4.5 to prevent botulism is also sub-optimal for yeast.

It's easy to bring the pH back to a normal level for sacch (4.9 ?) upon use. That's what we have a pH meter for. A few drops of NaOH is all it takes. The saved wort still takes up a lot of fridge space, though.

 

[z-bob]

Are you running that canner at 15psi?

I'm pretty sure 10 psi is enough at less than 1000 ft elevation. That's about 240 degrees. (11 psi is better if your pressure cooker will do that, plus I'm just over 1000') When in doubt, go 15 psi. Most pressure canners will do that.

I pressure canned some wort made with stale LME. It turned out very dark with a lot of trub, and it smelled pretty strong (wife was complaining about the smell while it was still in the canner in the sealed jars just from the vapor that escaped thru the rubber seals) I never used any for yeast starter; I dumped the jars. I use light DME to make starter as I need it. I have thought about doing a 1 gallon mash with 2-row or pils malt and canning that for starters (for when I run out of DME cuz that stuff is expensive) but I haven't done it yet.

 

[Vale71]

It's easy to bring the pH back to a normal level for sacch (4.9 ?) upon use. That's what we have a pH meter for. A few drops of NaOH is all it takes. The saved wort still takes up a lot of fridge space, though.

Hadn't thought of that...

 

[Dog House Brew]

I've tried it and it creates a very dark wort, in addition to some strange precipitate. I used it for one starter, and between the very dark smells and the other stuff...I wasn't willing to throw it in a batch of just-brewed wort.

This is what I got; YMMV. I'm back to just boiling 100g of DME in 1 liter of water for my starters.

The jars:

View attachment 598655

The starter from those jars:

View attachment 598654

What I'd consider to be a good starter:

View attachment 598656

Thanks awesome info. My last batch was a shaken starter. I prefer using my plate and harvesting from the starter. I was shocked at the growth difference. Thanks again

 

[pvpeacock]

I use these and they work great: https://www.morebeer.com/products/reagent-bottle-yeast-starters-1000-ml.html
I mix up water and DME, pour it in the bottle, add a non-foaming agent, microwave it for about 5-7 minutes until it boils, then cap it and put it in the refrigerator. When you want to use the wort, just take it out of the frig, let it warm to room temperature and make your starter. I have 3 of these bottles and always have at least one starter wort ready to go. Alternatively, I really liked Northern Brewer's Fast Pitch wort in a can. It is easy to store and use: https://www.northernbrewer.com/prod...IoE9TQL4VVE-hjQ1pRgdi_gQmq0k6wuYaAirjEALw_wcB

 

[Vale71]

I use these and they work great: https://www.morebeer.com/products/reagent-bottle-yeast-starters-1000-ml.html

Yes, they do. Until one goes bad on you and you get food poisoning...

 

[specialkayme]

Botulinum clostridii growth produces gasses so explains why our grandmas always used to say " if the can is bulging, throw it away".

I've eaten home canned jams, jellies, vegetables, and all kinds of things since before I can remember, and my family never had a pressure canner. Always done in a water bath. My grandma always told me that you can, let them sit for a few weeks (or month) at least, and observe if the seal pops. If so, it's bad and you toss it. If not, there is no botulism present.

So where was my grandma wrong?

 

[z-bob]

I've eaten home canned jams, jellies, vegetables, and all kinds of things since before I can remember, and my family never had a pressure canner. Always done in a water bath. My grandma always told me that you can, let them sit for a few weeks (or month) at least, and observe if the seal pops. If so, it's bad and you toss it. If not, there is no botulism present.

So where was my grandma wrong?

That works fine for jams, jellies, pickles, and most fruits. Tomatoes are borderline. Low-acid vegetables like green beans need to be autoclaved (pressure canned.)

Your grandma was probably mostly right, but what if the contents had just started to spoil when you opened it and it was toxic but hadn't bulged the lid and didn't smell yet? Grandma might've had an answer for this too: Boil any canned goods for 10 minutes before you even taste it. IIRC, that will destroy botulinum toxic -- but not some staph (?) toxins which are less dangerous.) That puts a lot of responsibility on the person eating the canned good, who might not know all the rules. Also an acceptable spoilage rate for me is zero. I put a lot of time and energy in my preserving and don't want any jars to go to waste

 

[specialkayme]

Your grandma was probably mostly right, but what if the contents had just started to spoil when you opened it and it was toxic but hadn't bulged the lid and didn't smell yet?

Well, theoretically in that situation it would be fairly difficult (but not impossible) to prove that the spoilage occurred just before I opened it, as opposed to just after I opened it, but before I ate it.

In the 1970's (I think) three infants died of botulism, not in one location but in a short time period of each other. They analyzed their food patterns to determine what the contaminated food was that they ate. The three infants ate one thing in common: honey. Not from the same source, or producer. But it was the only thing the three had in common. The doctors tested the honey and found botulism spores. But they also found trace amounts of botulism spores on just about everything else in the households too. But for some reason honey got the blame, even though a direct connection couldn't be made. Now whenever you buy commercial honey there is a disclaimer not to feed to infants under one year of age. Moral of the story, botulism is everywhere, but its at low levels and our bodies deal with it. Compromised or weakened immune systems can't.

But back to the topic at hand. Say you have some quart jars of wort that you boil canned. How long does it take for botulism, if it exists in the jars, to reproduce and gas out to pop the lid?

I assume if you wait a certain period of time, that would be your indicator, no?

Why would the botulism lay dormant in a jar for, say 2 months, not reproducing, only to suddenly come back to life once you open the can? And if there was botulism in the can, but not enough to produce gas to pop the lid, is there enough botulism in the can to cause harm to you, considering that the yeast will attack the wort and reduce the pH before the botulism could reproduce any more?

I mean, botulism spores are everywhere, and boiling doesn't kill them. So the spores exist in the starter you created with boiled water and DME. Just not in high enough concentrations to harm you, and the yeast creates an inhospitable environment for the spores to reproduce fast enough. So it isn't whether botulism spores exist in the boil canned wort, but whether there are enough botulism spores to cause harm. Right?

 

[Bassman2003]

I have been canning wort for many years which makes it very easy to make a starter. I do have a question from a recent canning batch:

I had one jar not pop and seal the lid. I tightened the lid and put it in the fridge for use first on my next brew. My thinking is that everything was killed with the 15 min. at 15psi so it should remain sterile while it sits in the fridge closed up. Am I right is it a risk?

Thanks

 

[z-bob]

I have been canning wort for many years which makes it very easy to make a starter. I do have a question from a recent canning batch:

I had one jar not pop and seal the lid. I tightened the lid and put it in the fridge for use first on my next brew. My thinking is that everything was killed with the 15 min. at 15psi so it should remain sterile while it sits in the fridge closed up. Am I right is it a risk?

Thanks

You sterilized it by 15 minutes at 250 degrees wet. It had a tight-fitting lid, just not vacuum sealed, and you didn't open it. Then you put it in the fridge where it's about 34 or 35 degrees (that's cold enough to be safe even if it weren't sterile) I think you're covered

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks. That's what I was thinking but thought I would run it by. I will probably make a starter with it next week.

 

[Vale71]

So where was my grandma wrong?

Well since she never thought of keeping malt wort that way I would say she wasn't.

Wort has high available water and lots of easily accessible sugars, a comparison with canned vegetables is really meaningless from a microbiological standpoint. But as I said, you won't have any issues until you do, and then the first time might be the last as well...

 

[tll77]

I have been canning wort for many years which makes it very easy to make a starter. I do have a question from a recent canning batch:

I had one jar not pop and seal the lid. I tightened the lid and put it in the fridge for use first on my next brew. My thinking is that everything was killed with the 15 min. at 15psi so it should remain sterile while it sits in the fridge closed up. Am I right is it a risk?

Thanks

When I have had this happen I just reprocess the jar.
Make sure the lid seal and the mouth of the jar are clean and that the jar is not over filled.

 

[specialkayme]

I still think the odds are quite low that if a canned jar hasn't lost its seal after a month that there still may be a botulism infection present. Most everything I've read indicates that the botulism toxin is created in 3-5 days when optimum conditions are present.

But . . . I get the point. Any chance that is greater than zero of instant death is something I'd like to avoid.

So what about an alternative? I do no sparge brewing, and I have left over residual sugars present in the grains after brewing. Why spend money on DME if I don't have to?

From what I've read, Clostridium botulinum, the bacteria that produces the botulinum toxin, can grow in environments from 40–120 °F (4.4–49 °C) when the pH is above 4.6, the oxygen level is below 2%, and the water activity is above 0.85.

So, if I take my second "runnings" and it comes out at 1.040, and I don't pressure can it, I can freeze it (discussed above), keep it above 120 degrees (not very practical), reduce the pH below 4.6 (not optimal for yeast growth), or reduce the water activity below 0.85.

In order to reduce the water activity below 0.85, I'd have to have approximately 67g of sugar for each 100g of water. That would give me a SG of roughly 1.25.

Now, If I had 3 gallons of 1.040 wort, and I boiled it down to 0.5 gallons, I should have a solution with an SG of 1.25, which means botulism wouldn't grow in it, right? Then, I should be able to add one part of this solution to five parts water to get yeast starters in the future. Basically making LME at home.

I don't know if it justifies the time and energy to make, when compared to buying DME, but it should work in theory, right?

 

[z-bob]

@specialkayme You skipped an easy one: Just store it in the refrigerator at 35°F. Couple of quarts. If one develops mold (unlikely but possible) use the other one. If they both go bad, use the DME you keep in reserve just for that possibility. Then save a quart or two from your new brew to replace the one(s) you used.

 

[specialkayme]

@specialkayme You skipped an easy one: Just store it in the refrigerator at 35°F.

True. Not sure how I skipped that.

Of course consuming more fridge real estate may lead to a quicker death from the significant other than the botulism may provide, but we all have to pick our poisons though

 

[SanPancho]

You dont even need the fancy bottles. Regular flask is fine. If you make up some sterile (or damn close) ice cubes then you can be done in 5 minutes. No need for overnight cooling.

Dump dme in flask, cover with 30-40% of the water you need and zap it till it gets hot enough.

Drop in ice cubes until you get to pitch temp. Top off with your sterile water, i.e. purified, bottled, distilled, etc.

Literally a 5 min process. Just need to have your ice ready.

 

[Vale71]

In order to reduce the water activity below 0.85, I'd have to have approximately 67g of sugar for each 100g of water. That would give me a SG of roughly 1.25.

This is exactly what keeps liquid malt extract from spoiling. It's concentrated to the point that most nasties don't have enough available water to grow. Unfortunately mold needs very little water so spoilage through mold ist still a possibility.

 

[pvpeacock]

Yes, they do. Until one goes bad on you and you get food poisoning...

My first reaction was that you were overreacting and what I was doing was perfectly safe because the wort was boiled in the microwave and then sealed hot. However, your post got me to do some research and you were absolutely right. Boiling does not kill the botulism spores only the toxin. Since I was using the bottled wort for starters, I never boiled it again. So, if it went bad, the toxin would go right into my beer.

A sincere thanks Vale71. I’ll be making starter wort fresh from now on.

 

[Bassman2003]

My understanding is that the spores will be killed at the 250f pressure canning temp though.

 

[Vale71]

My understanding is that the spores will be killed at the 250f pressure canning temp though.

Yes, they will.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

I freeze extra runnings from brew day in milk jugs. When needed, just thaw and use. It's not as easy as room temp storage, but i don't have to worry about botulism.

I like that approach. Do you boil the wort again after thawing?