store bought juice?

[capt_crazy]

okay, i know that idealy you should press your own apples to get the juice you need. after that you should get juice from the farmers market, and last you should buy it from costco or some other place.

my question is, does the quality diminish that dramatically if you buy the stuff from costco?

im a broke college kid who likes cider, but dont have enough money to get really good juice, so i was curious.

 

[Griffin10]

I'd be interested to hear about this too - the Costco 2-pack of gallon jugs of tree top juice for $8 is tempting when you have student loans, haha. They are made from concentrate, but technically only contain apple juice and vitamin C, no preservatives - so they should technically be ok? But is it gonna end up watery or low quality in some other way where we should just fork over the extra $2-4 per gallon for better juice?

 

[damien]

I guess it's all about availability. I got 3 gallons from a nearby orchard for $12. That's the same as the Costco brand stuff. You can save money lots of places maybe juice shouldn't be one of them....

 

[Pickled_Pepper]

I've used many many gallons of Kirkland Brand Fresh Pressed Apple Juice. (it's U.S. grown apples and contains no vitamin C or preservatives) My ciders basically taste like the original juice with the sugar removed and I can't taste any alcohol at 6-7% ABV. It does get quite a bit clearer and lighter in color than the original juice though.

I pay $8.80 for 2 gallons at costco here in Atlanta. I'd definitely recommend trying it.

EDIT: Forgot to mention...it's 100% apple juice and not from concentrate

 

[Fizzycist]

I've got 5.5 gallons of Treetop apple juice and 1 lb brown sugar in primary now, two packs of EC-1118 made the airlock freakin dance! 7 days later the temp is dropping back to room temp and the bubbling has slowed, gonna test gravity in another day or two.

 

[johnsnownw]

Yeah, I picked up some Treetop 3 apple pressed juice from Rainbow relatively cheaply, and it's preforming quite nicely. So, I would say that you aren't going to have much of an issue assuming you purchase not from concentrate juice.

 

[damien]

I've got 5.5 gallons of Treetop apple juice and 1 lb brown sugar in primary now, two packs of EC-1118 made the airlock freakin dance! 7 days later the temp is dropping back to room temp and the bubbling has slowed, gonna test gravity in another day or two.

That yeast (lavlin 1118) is fantastic. I use it for conditioning now.

 

[capt_crazy]

thanks guys! time for a costco run!

 

[CvilleKevin]

You can save money lots of places maybe juice shouldn't be one of them....

This is a key point. In my experience, most supermarket juice is crap. Its mostly red and golden delicious, which tastes great fresh and the press operators like it because the juice yields are so high, but once you ferment the sugar off, there isnt much taste left. Even juice stand / farmers market juice can be pretty mediocre for hard cider, if it is intended to be table juice.

Supermarket apple juice is like making beer from extract. It will work and probably taste OK, but likely not as good as something you can already buy in a 6-pack. For that, you need fresh ingredients. If you live in apple country, it should not be difficult to locate an orchard with a press operator who knows something about putting hard cider blends together. Just like making an all-grain batch of beer, you cant just mash anything together and expect it to taste good just because its fresh, but once you have a feel for putting a grain bill (or apple blend) together, its the only way to go.

The nice thing about supermarket juice is that it is easy to find, so its good for practicing on. If you can get decent results from supermarket juice, you can probably get great results from a good apple mix.

 

[Pickled_Pepper]

...If you live in apple country...

I live within an hour and a half of multiple orchards but the price of apples here in Georgia is through the roof. I buy 100% AJ from costco and while it's probably made from red delicious from washington state, I still think it's a nice final product.

I honestly have not been able to find an orchard in North Georgia that offers fresh pressed juice that rivals what I get from Kirklands Brand. I can press my own apples and make a more complex final product...but I just haven't been able to justify the cost. $4.40 a gallon vs. $4 a lb for apples or $8 a gallon for orchard juice. I've even offered to buy 20 gallons from about every orchard and they say no bulk price discounts. (questionable business practice in my opinion but ok fine)

I make ciders to enjoy through the winter and I think I've come up with something that is as good if not better than what I can buy in a commercial product...for cheaper. I can't complain one bit about cost per flavor ratio with what I've done.

 

[CvilleKevin]

the price of apples here in Georgia is through the roof

bummer - maybe this guy can help you out. same area. gold rush and pink lady are awesome cider apples and granny smith is good for adding tartness

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/re...ar-experiments-83060/index22.html#post1641809

Yeah, $8 a gallon is really high. some retail places around here charge that much. If you can find a medium sized press that distributes juice to produce stores, then you should be able to get to $3/gal range. Right now I am paying 3.25 for a good apple mix, 3.75 for premium apple mix. Last season premium apples were 2.50/gal. All the new commercial cideries are pushing the price up, which is good for the farmers and more trees are getting planted, even though it costs a bit more to fill carboys.

I'm not knocking cider made from commercial grade juice. It can be really good. There is no ideal juice so you gotta work with the ingredients you can get. But always be vigilant for better juice

 

[Pickled_Pepper]

Thanks for the link! I read his post and it's a bit old, but I'm going to try and contact him. That's a great price you are paying for juice. If I could pay $5 or even $6 a gallon for local pressed juice I would do it. Most of the little places around here in downtown Atlanta cater to fru-fru granola eaters so they charge a premium.

I probably just need to find someone down here to share a press and wholesale cases of apples.

 

[Alchemy]

Like someone else said, using cheap store bought juice will leave little taste after...i will add in the "unless you age" the longer it sits the more apple flavor will come back.

Since you said you wanted cheap here is what i do for my cheap bulk hard cider:

5 gallons motts cider from costco/bjs/sams whatever, lalvin 1118 champagne yeast, 1.5lbs brown sugar.

Put the containers of juice in the fridge to cool them down. Once they are cool take a little off the top of each of them and pour it into a pot (about an 1/8th out of each bottle will work) and put them back in the fridge. put the 1.5 lbs of brown sugar in the pot (a 2 or 3 gallon pot works). Put the heat up to medium-low and do not boil, stir and disolve the sugar into the juice. While this is working make sure to rehydrate the yeast in a small glass bowl using previously boiled and cooled to 80 - 90f water. just sprinkle the yeast on top of the water and cover with foil. Set a timer for 15 minutes as when that goes off you will stir with a sanatized spork and pitch into the fermenter.

Pour the juice/sugar mixture from the pot into the fermentation bucket/carboy and add 1 tbsp yeast nutrient and energizer.

Take the cooled bottles of juice and shake each one of them vigorously and then pour into the fermenter one by one. Once you have rehydrated the yeast and stirred pitch into fermenter and place in 70-72f dark area with an airlock on it.

I let this stay in primary for a month and didn't have to use secondary. Basically just let it finish fermenting and go clear.

Depending on if you are bottling or kegging you can put sorbate and potassium metabisulfite in the keg and back sweeten, cant do that with bottle so if you want it sweet you will need to stop the ferment and pasteurize after carbing (there are lots of instructions on the forum for that

I kegged at around 20psi at 40f on top of 1/6tsp sulfite and 1 tsp sorbate, i back sweetened using 3 concentrate cans of cherry pomegranate juice.

It came out pretty damn amazing

 

[frugalaudio]

New here, so please pardon the intrusion. Haven't even made my first batch but I bought five gallons of sweet cider this week. Turns out, in my area, I don't see much point in buying commercial brands like Motts or even the store brands. They all seem to come out somewhere around $4.00 a gallon (give or take a bit). I was able to get cider (juice) from a local orchard for $3.99/gallon. It's pasteurized but has no preservatives at all. The orchard/farm store is 30 or 40 miles from me but it turned out they also sell through one of our locally owned, smaller grocery chains.

This is what I bought:
LynOaken Farms Cider

 

[Alchemy]

New here, so please pardon the intrusion. Haven't even made my first batch but I bought five gallons of sweet cider this week. Turns out, in my area, I don't see much point in buying commercial brands like Motts or even the store brands. They all seem to come out somewhere around $4.00 a gallon (give or take a bit). I was able to get cider (juice) from a local orchard for $3.99/gallon. It's pasteurized but has no preservatives at all. The orchard/farm store is 30 or 40 miles from me but it turned out they also sell through one of our locally owned, smaller grocery chains.

This is what I bought:
LynOaken Farms Cider

The way they pasteurize wont kill off the natural yeast i don't think. I would add potassium metabisulfite (campden tab) to it for 24 hours just in case. Otherwise that is awesome you can get fresh pressed cider for that cheap!

 

[BoomerCreek]

Store bought juice can be given a bit of depth by adding tannins and an acid blend.

 

[CvilleKevin]

that is awesome you can get fresh pressed cider for that cheap!

It shouldnt be too hard to find fresh juice for 4/gal if you live in apple country, although this time of the year is getting harder to find presses that still can get apples. You might have to spend an hour on the phone calling around nearby orchards to find the apples and the price you want, but IMHO that is a good investment.

If you dont live in apple country, then obviously this doesnt apply.

Store bought juice can be given a bit of depth by adding tannins and an acid blend.

True - also in my experience commercial juice does better with sweeter styles, where not all the apple sugars are fermented out. Most of the commercial juice I tried tasted OK until around 1.020 and then it kinda flattened out tastewise.

If you do live in apple country, IMHO its worth making the extra effort to source good juice and even pay a little extra if you have to. Even if you have to pay $8/gal (which had better be some damn good juice!) thats still only $40 a keg which is less half the price of a 1/6 barrel of any decent commercial cider.

I probably just need to find someone down here to share a press and wholesale cases of apples.

I have a couple friends who have presses, and this is a lot of fun. Wholesale apples usually go by the bin, which is 22 bushels and cost 150-200 for a single bin, which yields 44-66 gallons depending on the press. At the quantities we press its usually not any cheaper than buying fresh juice in bulk but its fun and there is a lot more control over the apple mix

 

[truckjohn]

Hey guys,
Pay attention to what Cville Kevin says..... Lots of really good points....

Important point #1 - Store apple juice and fresh pressed farm drinking juice are much better in sweet styles that you want to drink fairly young... ESPECIALLY when you cold crash before they run dry.... Absolutely correct! These make Great cider that you can drink in 2-weeks to a month!

Corrolary to #1 - Store juice is great for sorting out your process and figuring out what you like.. It's available all year long.... Supplement it with store Apple Juice Concentrate if you ferment it too dry or want more acid or apple flavor in the finished product... I REALLY like hard cider with 20-30% apple juice concentrate... More intense apple flavor, better acid, and it really adds an "Appley-ness" when back-sweetening....

Point #2... If you are in apple country - you can find apples that are suitable... If you aren't in apple country - you can probably still find apples that are suitable provided apples grow in your region.... Crab apples do a fine job of supplementing "Sweet" fresh juice with both tannin and acid, and yard apples abound... You can get crab apples for free in shopping center parking lots, neighbor's yards, etc.... The bugs don't touch them and the owners want them gone - so it's a win-win.... Yard apples are much the same - usually, you can get them if you agree to make them go away... Make sure you have plenty of bags available.... They are also a fine source for apple sauce, jelly, and the like....

Point #3... Cheap apples are available... You just gotta know what to ask for.... If you ask for "Cider apples" or "#2 apples" - you get apples that run anywhere from $4-$15/bushel.... If you want prime eating apples - yeah.. those are $30/bushel....

 

[Jacob_Marley]

If you're really on a tight budget, the only real way to figure out whether a cheap brand tastes suitable to you is to buy some and make cider from it; then judge for yourself.

The cheapest apple juice I've seen is Kroger brand frozen concentrated apple juice ... 12 oz frozen - ascorbic acid added ... as low as .79cents a can on sale ... normally about $1 to $1.10 /can.
Goes <ahem> well with chinese food.

Diluting that 12oz can with 2-1/2 cans water, bringing the volume up to 42 ounces, ferments to about 8% abv with no additional sugar needed.
3 cans of water = about 6% (sg 1.045)

At .79cents that means a gallon of 8% cider costs you about $2.37 plus chemicals and yeast.

At a buck a can,
$3 a gallon for 8%
$2.66 a gallon for 6%

 

[Pickled_Pepper]

Hey guys,
Pay attention to what Cville Kevin says..... Lots of really good points....

agreed.

 

[liquidavalon]

okay, i know that idealy you should press your own apples to get the juice you need. after that you should get juice from the farmers market, and last you should buy it from costco or some other place.

my question is, does the quality diminish that dramatically if you buy the stuff from costco?

Good question and great information from replies. Glad your answers went well...some that ask the question " kick the hornets nest " Ha!

 

[Matt723]

Put the heat up to medium-low and do not boil, stir and disolve the sugar into the juice.

Is it a big deal if you boil it? Is there a reason not to boil?

 

[Alchemy]

Is it a big deal if you boil it? Is there a reason not to boil?

It will set the pectin in the juice and your cider won't clear, if you don't mind a hazy cider then go for it but personally I have found no reason to boil.

 

[Matt723]

It will set the pectin in the juice and your cider won't clear, if you don't mind a hazy cider then go for it but personally I have found no reason to boil.

Darn! Wish I had read that sooner... just put down some cider today and boiled about 1/2 G with brown sugar and cinnamon, it looks pretty cloudy... just assumed it was the yeast.

 

[Alchemy]

Darn! Wish I had read that sooner... just put down some cider today and boiled about 1/2 G with brown sugar and cinnamon, it looks pretty cloudy... just assumed it was the yeast.

See if it settles out when it is done fermenting, if not you can try pectin enzyme to get rid of the haze.

 

[Matt723]

See if it settles out when it is done fermenting, if not you can try pectin enzyme to get rid of the haze.

At what point would I add the pectin enzyme?

Not sure if this matters but I plan on bottling around 1.02 (OG was 1.056) then waiting a few days and checking carbonation, once it's where I want it I will pasteurize the bottles. Would that make any difference?

Also, will swing top (Grolsch) bottles work fine to hold the carb levels this will produce? This is the first time I will have stopped a fermentation so I'm a little nervous.

Thank you all for your help.

 

[johnsnownw]

At what point would I add the pectin enzyme?

Not sure if this matters but I plan on bottling around 1.02 (OG was 1.56) then waiting a few days and checking carbonation, once it's where I want it I will pasteurize the bottles. Would that make any difference?

Also, will swing top (Grolsch) bottles work fine to hold the carb levels this will produce? This is the first time I will have stopped a fermentation so I'm a little nervous.

Thank you all for your help.

I can answer some of the questions.

1. The Grolsch bottles will work fine.
2. Bottling around 1.02 should carb very quickly...so watch carefully. If you have room in your fridge you can throw them in there when your carb levels are where you want...and you won't have to worry about pasteurizing.

Not sure about the pectic enzyme.

 

[Matt723]

Bottling around 1.02 should carb very quickly...so watch carefully. If you have room in your fridge you can throw them in there when your carb levels are where you want...and you won't have to worry about pasteurizing.

Any estimate of how quickly? My original plan was to leave them at least 2 days before testing one, is that too long?

Also my reason for pasteurization is for transportation, I plan to give some samples to friends and I don't want the yeast to re-start if the bottles aren't kept cool.

 

[johnsnownw]

Any estimate of how quickly? My original plan was to leave them at least 2 days before testing one, is that too long?

Also my reason for pasteurization is for transportation, I plan to give some samples to friends and I don't want the yeast to re-start if the bottles aren't kept cool.

It's hard to say, it will depend on your yeast, the temperature, and how much carbonation you lose when racking.

Checking a bottle after 2 days is a good idea.

The yeast won't restart immediately after removing from the fridge...but if you left them out for a day or so, then yes it would restart.

 

[Matt723]

It's hard to say, it will depend on your yeast, the temperature, and how much carbonation you lose when racking.

Checking a bottle after 2 days is a good idea.

The yeast won't restart immediately after removing from the fridge...but if you left them out for a day or so, then yes it would restart.

I'm using Nottingham Ale Yeast and it's at 69F, once it gets to 1.02 I'll be going straight from the fermenter into bottles and can store it in either 69F (basement) or bring it up to the main floor which is around 72F. I thought I would bring it up stairs because my thinking is the warmer temp will get the yeast going again or at least allow it to continue fermenting/carbonating naturally.

 

[truckjohn]

At what point would I add the pectin enzyme?

Not sure if this matters but I plan on bottling around 1.02 (OG was 1.56) then waiting a few days and checking carbonation, once it's where I want it I will pasteurize the bottles. Would that make any difference?

There's got to be a typo in there... OG = 1.56 = sugar syrup with sugar in the bottom that forms crystals on everything... Perhaps you meant 1.056.. which is within the right range for starting out with store juice and a little sugar....

You can add pectic enzyme any time.

My typical recommendation for using Store jug juice is to supplement and/or backsweeten it with Apple juice concentrate rather than sugar. The more expensive "Organic" stuff works best in my opinion.. This helps add some "Character" back to the cider..... Otherwise, it ferments out pretty bland.

Thanks

 

[Matt723]

There's got to be a typo in there... OG = 1.56 = sugar syrup with sugar in the bottom that forms crystals on everything... Perhaps you meant 1.056.. which is within the right range for starting out with store juice and a little sugar....

Yes, definitely a typo! Thanks for point that out.

I'm trying to make a small 1G batch of 5 Day Sweet Country Cider.

My intent is to try and drink some this weekend for the NHL All Star game with some buddy. One of them prefers cider to beer so that's why I'm doing up this small batch for him.

It's been fermenting since Monday night (so almost 3 days), I'm going to take a reading tonight. I figure (correct me if I'm wrong) that if I bottle the cider at 1.02 that it will carbonate slightly faster and be ready by Sunday (3 more days) I know it will be close but I'm hoping it's somewhat drinkable. I also plan on pasteurizing the bottles Sunday morning depending on the level of carbonation.

Am I thinking in the right direction or would it be better to let the yeast finish then bottle with priming sugar (or organic juice). Obviously it wouldn't be ready for Sunday.

Thanks again for all your help!

 

[truckjohn]

If you only made a 1 gallon batch to start with... then you can't possibly get more than 10 beer bottles (128 oz/gallon)... Now.. Realistically - you are more likely to get 8 or 9 bottles since you don't want each bottle 1/4 full of yeast sludge..... You will most likely drink this during the game.... If not - you will probably have 1 or 3 bottles left (Unless it tastes horrible....)

If you are planning to drink it on Sunday... It's Thursday now... Stick your fermenting jug in the fridge when it hits 1.02 or 1.01.. Rack it off the yeast 12 or 24 hours later... You will probably be left with enough cider to fill a 3L jug... but don't get greedy and suck up a bunch of yeast sludge.... Leave this in the Fridge till Game Day Morning..... Sunday morning - Rack it off again and mix in Apple Juice Concentrate till it tastes good... and then drink it all up during the Hockey game... For most people, this ends up around 1.02 range.

Don't fool with bottling it and pasteurizing it if you are going to drink it 3 hours later.... It will take a couple days of sitting to get over the "Bottle shock"..... which puts you into next week.... If you were doing this in October - planning for the NHL Stanley Cup game, my advice would be different....

Thanks

 

[Pickled_Pepper]

I agree. I don't see any way to get it carbonated by Sunday. There might be enough CO2 in suspension to give it a little fizzle so I'd just try and be delicate when racking it.

 

[Matt723]

If you only made a 1 gallon batch to start with... then you can't possibly get more than 10 beer bottles (128 oz/gallon)... Now.. Realistically - you are more likely to get 8 or 9 bottles since you don't want each bottle 1/4 full of yeast sludge..... You will most likely drink this during the game.... If not - you will probably have 1 or 3 bottles left (Unless it tastes horrible....)

If you are planning to drink it on Sunday... It's Thursday now... Stick your fermenting jug in the fridge when it hits 1.02 or 1.01.. Rack it off the yeast 12 or 24 hours later... You will probably be left with enough cider to fill a 3L jug... but don't get greedy and suck up a bunch of yeast sludge.... Leave this in the Fridge till Game Day Morning..... Sunday morning - Rack it off again and mix in Apple Juice Concentrate till it tastes good... and then drink it all up during the Hockey game... For most people, this ends up around 1.02 range.

Don't fool with bottling it and pasteurizing it if you are going to drink it 3 hours later.... It will take a couple days of sitting to get over the "Bottle shock"..... which puts you into next week.... If you were doing this in October - planning for the NHL Stanley Cup game, my advice would be different....

Thanks

I agree. I don't see any way to get it carbonated by Sunday. There might be enough CO2 in suspension to give it a little fizzle so I'd just try and be delicate when racking it.

Thanks for your suggestions guys!

I ended up racking to secondary on Friday night at 1.028 then cold crashed the overnight at 34F in my shed. Sat morning I bottled (no priming sugar) and let them sit on my kitchen counter to warm up for about 2-3 hours (house is at 72F). I gave them a good shake 2-3 times while they where warming up then put them back in the fridge to get them cold in time for the NHL Allstar skills competition on Saturday (maybe 6-7 hours). The end result was very good, maybe not quite as carbonated as I had hoped for but the taste was great! FG was 1.024.

The next day (Sunday) there was considerably more carbonation, almost perfect in my opinion. I never actually ended up pasteurizing any of the bottles (most got drank this weekend). Also, I'm not really sure if the shaking I did really did anything or not... my assumption would be that it would help get the yeast back in suspension but I don't know if the bottles ever actually warmed up enough for the yeast to get active again.

When I opened the bottles (grolsh flip-tops) there is a very nice 'pop' just like when you open a new grolch beer. I'm new at this (bottle carbing) but a lot of the pressure seemed to be in the airspace in the top of the bottle, my assumption was that the pressure would eventually force itself into the liquid and thus carbonate the cider. If someone could comment and let me know if this is a correct assumption or not I would love to know. Another reason I'm thinking that theory is correct is because after leaving the bottles to sit a day longer in the fridge there was more carbonation in the cider.

Anyhow, I love this recipe and I put down a second batch Saturday that I can hopefully have ready in time for the Superbowl! All my buddies loved it and a lot of them were asking me for the recipe as if I am some magical cider maker now... hahaha. Thanks for all your help guys!

 

[truckjohn]

Yep - the yeast are still working away... Just a bit slower.... Kinda like lagering a beer...

Don't bother shaking them up - there's plenty of yeast in suspension to go around...

What you will find is that as it sits - it gets less and less sweet and more and more carbonated until you hit the limit of what your flip top cap will hold - and then the excess just leaks out... Your best bet is to not let them sit too long - or it gets pretty bitter.. and then you gotta age it out a long time to make it taste reasonable again...

Thanks

 

[Matt723]

Yep - the yeast are still working away... Just a bit slower.... Kinda like lagering a beer...

Don't bother shaking them up - there's plenty of yeast in suspension to go around...

What you will find is that as it sits - it gets less and less sweet and more and more carbonated until you hit the limit of what your flip top cap will hold - and then the excess just leaks out... Your best bet is to not let them sit too long - or it gets pretty bitter.. and then you gotta age it out a long time to make it taste reasonable again...

Thanks

Would this be where pasteurizing would work well? Stop the yeast and then I can simply age it? Although I only have one bottle left now, that'll be gone tonight... but I'd still like to know.

Also, are you saying that my flip tops won't break but rather leak? That's good to hear cause it was definitely a concern of mine! I search around for information as to what they can take for pressure... found lots of info but nothing I could understand that well.