Still new to all grain and need help with everything

[Bruiz54]

I was wondering if anyone could give me a run down on a few things on mashing. First off terminology seems a bit confusing. Also my set up is a cooler as a mash/latertun, if I amusing those terms right. I wanted to know how do people do their mash, what are their times and temps. How much water to use, especially for sparging. I want to do batch sparging but I am unsure when do I add the water? Do I add it directly in with the water used for the mash or do I drain the mash first and then add the water. What does it mean to run clear? What does it mean to mash out. LOL as you can see I have a ton of questions. Any answers would be very welcomed. Thank you and Cheers!

 

[TwoHeadsBrewing]

There are a ton of resources on this forum and on the web that will get you informed about the whole All Grain process. Here's one of my first All Grain batches, with a section on my process.

My First AG

Great online book on all things brewing: How To Brew

In short, here is my process for mashing a "normal" 5.5 gallon batch:

1. Heat 3.4 gallons of water to 165F (target mash temp of 152F)
2. Dough in (mix water with grains/grist) and stir well to eliminate any air pockets
3. Cover MLT and let sit for 60 minutes
4. Heat 4.2 gallons of water to 175F for batch sparge
5. Add 1 gallon of 175 water to MLT
6. Vorlauf then drain all wort from MLT (this is known as your first runnings)
7. Close valve, and add in remaining 175F water
8. Stir well and let sit for 10 minutes so the grain bed settles
9. Vorlauf then drain all wort from MLT.

This should get you about 6 gallons of wort in the kettle for your boil. Pretty simple, but keep in mind you temperatures in the mash will vary due to your equipment. Keep notes and figure out how hot you should make your water next time to hit the desired mash temps. Good luck!

 

[Yooper]

I learn by watching, even though I've read the books, I find it easier to see a video.

Bobby_M has some videos in his signature worth watching that explain the whole process-

And his webpage:
http://www.suebob.com/brew/allgrain.htm

I wish these were around when I was starting out! I think they will help alot!

 

[dr_finklestein]

Great Info...I'm taking notes for when I do an AG

 

[Bruiz54]

So I followed these steps and I missed my gravity again. This is the third time out of the three all grains I have tried to do. What the heck am I doing wrong. This is really getting annoying. I do not understand I do everything that youtube and complete joy and now you guys tell me and I still miss my gravity. Not by a little either like 20 points. Why does my efficency suck so bad.

 

[fishops]

Can't really tell you much unless you tell us your process. What recipe, what equipment, what temps are you shooting for?

I will tell you that the times I've gone way under or over on my SG were due to a badly calibrated thermometer.

 

[anth]

I will tell you that the times I've gone way under or over on my SG were due to a badly calibrated thermometer.

+1 I bought a fancy new digital thermometer on Ebay for ~$12 shipped and it brought my avg efficiency from 65% to 72%. I later checked my first thermometer in boiling and freezing water. It registered close to 205 and 27, respectively.

 

[TwoHeadsBrewing]

Also, be aware that if you are taking a hydrometer sample at anything above 60F it will be reading low. For instance, a hydrometer sample of 1.032 @ 125F is actually 1.044! Make sure to either chill your samples first (more accurate), or convert your gravity readings based on the temperature of the sample.

And remember, the only way to fail at anything is to give up! You'll get it...and be making damn fine brew in no time!

 

[Kauai_Kahuna]

Bruiz54 - OK, breath. Believe me when I say many of have been there and done that. My first 3 brews I used 3 thermometers, and all of the were off when I took the time to calibrate them with boiling/ice water. I then spent a lot less on digital from Walmart and you know what, it was cheap, and accurate. (OK $16, but I paid much more on the others from "Chef stores", Friggin rip-off stores.
There are a ton of "What did I do wrong" threads on AG brewing and efficiency, I think I read every one of them and still am not close to perfect.
You really need to take very good notes and measurements on your process, and with that you will most likely be able to spot issues. If you don't post them here and believe me, people will give advice. May not fix the problem but you can learn a lot.

 

[Bobby_M]

You should type out every small step you take. You say you do everything according to instructions but there may be a little nuance that you're missing like stirring after your batch sparge infusions. Missing by 20 points suggests you're doing either one big thing wrong or a lot of little ones.

My checklist for efficiency:


Grain Crush - You might say that finer crushes ensure more complete conversion. Effeciency begins by making sure you're fully converted. It is possible that your crush is so coarse that you don't get full conversion even after 90 minutes of mashing. Even further, the sugar that is converted is highly guarded from the sparge water.

Mash Rest Time - This is tied in to the previous factor. If your crush was coarse and you didn't mash for long enough, your mash efficiency suffers.

Sparge Technique - (Continuous/Fly, Batch, No Sparge) Hopefully without promoting a heated debate, various sparging techniques are generally accepted to yield slightly higher or lower efficiency. In some cases, higher efficiency is traded for a simpler process or other desirable outcomes.

Lauter tun Design - For the most part, the lauter tun design is highly coupled to the sparge technique the brewer is using. Across all designs, dead space or places where wort can become trapped will lower efficiency.

Sparge Temperature - Sparge temperatures that raise or maintain the grain bed's temperature up near 170F or at least 165F will always yield a higher efficiency. Sugar becomes more soluble in water at higher temperatures. If the grain gets any hotter than 170F however, you might extract unwanted flavors along with the sugar.

Sparge Volume - The more water you use to sparge with, the more total sugar you will extract. Think about rinsing soap off your hands. If one quart is enough to get all the soap off, a pint would probably leave some residue. There is however a point of diminishing returns because the more diluted wort you collect, the longer you have to boil it down to your desired finished batch size. It's not economical spending $8 worth of fuel to save $4 worth of grain.

Batch Target Gravity - This is another factor highly tied to sparge volume. As your desired batch OG goes up, the ratio of grain to total sparge water goes up. This will always drop efficiency down a certain degree. It can become predictable once you dial your process in however.

 

[Bruiz54]

Here is my recipe

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

03-B European Amber Lager, Oktoberfest/Maerzen

Min OG: 1.050 Max OG: 1.056
Min IBU: 20 Max IBU: 28
Min Clr: 7 Max Clr: 14 Color in SRM, Lovibond[/U]

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.00 Wort Size (Gal): 5.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 10.50
Anticipated OG: 1.057 Plato: 13.95
Anticipated SRM: 9.2
Anticipated IBU: 25.5
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 5.88 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.048 SG 11.94 Plato

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
66.7 7.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) America 1.036 2
19.0 2.00 lbs. Munich Malt Germany 1.037 8
9.5 1.00 lbs. Crystal 40L America 1.034 40
4.8 0.50 lbs. Vienna Malt America 1.035 4

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.60 oz. Perle Pellet 8.20 23.5 60 min.
0.50 oz. Liberty Pellet 3.20 2.0 15 min.




Water Profile
-------------
I always use bottled spring water because it has a good amount of minerals in it


Mash Schedule
-------------

I mashed with three Gals of water at 153, or so my non digital thermometer told me. Ithen swparged at 175 with 4 gals of water.

The OG by the time everything was done was 1046. But that was after adding 1/2 lb DME and almost 1LB of corn sugar. So Yeah this sucks. I do not get it. I use mash tune with a slotted pipe manifoled I made after reading How To Brew.

 

[Bobby_M]

3 gallons of strike water in 10.5 pounds of grain sounds good. I'm going to assume you were able to drain off about 2 gallons of first wort following the mash?

It sounds like you added all 4 gallons of sparge water at once. Side note... did you add this sparge water to the mash before draining off your first runnings? If so, there's your problem.

Here's the basic batch sparge process summary so let us know if you didn't do this:

Stir your strike water and grain together.
Wait 60 minutes
Recirculate about 2 quarts.
Drain the tun completely.
Add sparge water and stir really well.
Recirculate 2 quarts.
Drain the tun completely.

Extra points if you break the sparge into two equal parts (for a total of 3 runnings).

 

[Bruiz54]

No here is what I did. I adde 1 gal of very hot water too the three Gal mash during my first running. It broughyt the temp up a bit and then I ran off my first running. Then I added the remainder fo the water to the grains and let it sit ofr 10 mins then I let that run off too.

 

[Bobby_M]

Did you stir really well after adding the sparge water?

 

[Bruiz54]

I did stir, I do not know weathe ror not it would be classified as "well", but I did stir. You know I appriciate the response and advice. I do wonder if my thermometer is accurate. I checked it out today and it read 76 degrees 1 degree different than my thermostat.

 

[TwoHeadsBrewing]

I mentioned this before, but are you sure your hydrometer readings are correct and you have accounted for the temperature of your sample?

 

[Bruiz54]

My hydrometer could be a few points off of the final gravity, but should not be too far off. I took my last hydrometer reading after the wort had been boiled and cooled to pitching temp. I think it was 85 or so degrees, besides it read 1046 after I had added sugar and DME. So I know something is not right . You know I wouldnt mind being 4 or 5 points off but more then 10 thats not good. Well at least you guys make me hopefull for a brighter brewing future because I have seriously contimplated whether or not it was good to try all grain.

 

[el gato]

Here is a basic pictorial that helped me out when I first started. It helped to remind me of steps I might otherwise forget. I just subbed in the water & temp values from beersmith.

good luck

WortHog Batch Sparging Instructions

 

[Bobby_M]

Pretty pictures and all but it seems to waste more time than necessary.

They list heating the sparge water as something that starts after taking first runnings as if it only took a few minutes to heat to 170F. The other compaint I have is that they imply heating each sparge infusion one at a time. Of course if you only have a 3 gallon pot, you'd have to do it that way but I start heating all of my sparge water after the first 30 minutes of mash so that by the time I'm done mashing, the sparge happens immediately. I also don't worry about 10 minute rests after sparge infusions. They do nothing for me.

In any case, that exact procedure will work ok but also add over an hour to your brew day.

 

[bull8042]

As I was looking at the pictures I was sort of thinking the same thing. Not a bad "primer" for a 1st timer to allow them to visualize the individual steps, but many of them can be overlapped as Bobby has already stated.

 

[Bruiz54]

So at my homebrew club meeeting last night I think I got some helpful hints on top of what everyone else has said.
1) More water for the first running. I used 1.14qt per LB the suggestion was to increase to 1.5qt

2) PH: I need to use some sort of PH stabilizer or increaser or something. I will re read the How to brew for this. Currently I ddi not use any. I also only use bottled spring water.

3) When i sparge it was suggested to let it sit for a little longer like 20 mins

4) I should control the rate at which the first runnings come out to a min of 2qts per min up to 3 qts per min. Yes this is something very true to fly sparging, but I heard it can increase my effeciencly with batch as well.


Well let me know what you all think

 

[twst1up]

very helpful...thank you

 

[Kauai_Kahuna]

Bruiz54 - OK, let me take a swing at this. I hate adding anything after the gurus, but you had more questions.

1 - First, 1.25 mash ratio is kind of standard and should get you close. Too much in the initial mash means less you can sparge = more boiling, waste of energy. (You don't want uncle Gore mad at you.)
2- Adding 5.2 or anything else will not help unless you know your problem. Measure your PH for your mash, then after 60 and 90 minutes test for conversion using iodine.
Also - Take a sample and get a SG for the first runnings, compare that to the possible mash efficiency and you will be able to spot any problems there. If that is fine your problem is with the sparging and volumes.
3 - After adding batch sparge water, 10 to 15 minutes seems OK for me to allow diffusion to extract the sugars. 20 minutes may help, but I think the sparge temperature would be much more important.
I have had best results with the double sparge / no mash out process using 2.5 gal at 185F for the first batch, and 2.5 gal at 190F for the second. (Water volume changes per your initial runnings). This means if you need 7 gals preboil, and you pull two gals on the first runnings, you would do two seperate 2.5 gal batch sparges.
4 - I agree that a slower draw can't hurt, but not really important with batch sparging if you stir VERY well, and let it sit for 10-15 minutes before the draw.

WARNING --- I have only done around 8 AG batchs using batch sparging. But I remember the angst well and am attempting to assist.

 

[Bruiz54]

Hey thanks so much. I will take all these sugestions and try to apply them. I will be doing a chocolate ocffee stout, my first one, this weekend. I will let you all know how it turned out. Cross your fingers that I bring my efficency up to at least 60%

 

[Saccharomyces]

Check out the thread linked in my sig. It's helpful to know your mash efficiency so you can determine where the problem lies. Otherwise it's like shooting blindfolded.

Most severe batch sparge efficiency problems seem to be due to poor mash efficiency. If you don't get all the sugars out of the grain during the mash (poor crush, high pH, etc.) all the fancy sparging and mashouts in the world won't help you a bit.

- Crush the grain WELL
- Dough in at 1.25 or 1.5 qt/lb
- Measure mash pH 5-10 minutes after dough-in with test strips and adjust w/ calcium, 5.2, lactic acid, goat pee, whatever until it reads at 5.2.
- After 60 minutes of mashing, stir like a mad man for 2-3 minutes and then measure the mash gravity of a few combined samples to determine what % of available sugars you actually extracted.

If you do all the above, your mash efficiency should be over 90%. I calculated mine at very close to 100% a few batches ago.

Typical guesstimates:
A no-sparge infusion will remove 50-60% of the sugars in the mash.
A poorly executed batch sparge done by a blind monkey will remove 60-65% of the sugars in the mash.
A good single-infusion batch sparge will remove 65-75% of the sugars in the mash.
A good double-infusion batch sparge will remove 80-90+% of the sugars in the mash.
A well executed fly sparge will remove 85-95+% of the sugars in the mash.

 

[Saccharomyces]

So at my homebrew club meeeting last night I think I got some helpful hints on top of what everyone else has said.
1) More water for the first running. I used 1.14qt per LB the suggestion was to increase to 1.5qt

A thick mash (1 qt/lb) favors alpha amylase activity and results in quick conversion. A thin mash (2 qt/lb) favors beta amylase activity and slows conversion. Anywhere from 1-2 qt/lb should provide complete conversion in 60 minutes.

If a thick mash doesn't convert completely (low mash efficiency), it's probably due to dough-balls in the mash. Dry malt doesn't convert. If you don't stir well at dough-in and leave dough balls you aren't converting all of your grain. It's easier to work out dough balls in a thin mash.

I dough in at 1.25 qt/lb, and stir like a mad man for five minutes to be sure there aren't any doughballs in the mash. I also stir a good bit after 30 minutes (at that point the mash is converted so it's less viscuous / easier to stir) to make sure I didn't miss any doughballs. Last batch I found a couple of small dough balls at that stage, so they had the last half hour to convert themselves.