Steeping Grain Question

[JBZSTL]

I am brewing a Dry Stout Guinness clone recipe from BYO. It calls for the following:

"Place crushed grains and flaked barley in a large steeping bag. Heat 3.2 qts of water to 161F, lower bag into liquid and steep at 150F for 60 minutes. Rinse grains withe 1.5 qts of water at 170F. Add water and roughly half of DME to wort to make pre-boil volume of 3.0 gallons."

I followed the instructions excepting I added additional 1.5 qts of water in the beginning to allow for the majority of the grains to be submersed. I was worried that the grains were not completely submersed.

I noticed during the steep that one side of the kettle the temperature would be at 150F and the other side would be 120-130F. After a while I place my thermometer into the grain bag and found the temperature to be between 180-190F. Obviously I am now worried about the temp being too high and tannins being released. I have never measured the temp from the middle of the grain bag in any of my previous brews. Where should the thermometer be placed to get the most accurate reading?

 

[MalFet]

For tannin extraction to happen, you need to exceed both your expected temperature and your expected pH range. Temp alone won't do it. As long as your mash didn't become too alkaline, you should be okay. You could always just taste the liquid...if taste (or, even more, feel) the astringency, you are probably good.

Of slightly greater concern is enzymatic conversion. From the sounds of it, this isn't a grain steep but a mini-mash. What got "steeped" besides the crushed barley?

Temperature control is a significant concern in mashing, much more so than in steeping. When you pour that water in, you've got to stir until your arm feels like it's about to fall off, then cover your pot and leave it alone for an hour. The hot and cold spots make it hard to know what temperature the bulk of your grain was at. If it was at 120s, you probably didn't get much conversion from the specialty grains. If it was at 180, you probably killed all the enzymes. If it was just a pound or two, you'll still be alright.

 

[JBZSTL]

For tannin extraction to happen, you need to exceed both your expected temperature and your expected pH range. Temp alone won't do it. As long as your mash didn't become too alkaline, you should be okay. You could always just taste the liquid...if taste (or, even more, feel) the astringency, you are probably good.

Of slightly greater concern is enzymatic conversion. From the sounds of it, this isn't a grain steep but a mini-mash. What got "steeped" besides the crushed barley?

Temperature control is a significant concern in mashing, much more so than in steeping. When you pour that water in, you've got to stir until your arm feels like it's about to fall off, then cover your pot and leave it alone for an hour. The hot and cold spots make it hard to know what temperature the bulk of your grain was at. If it was at 120s, you probably didn't get much conversion from the specialty grains. If it was at 180, you probably killed all the enzymes. If it was just a pound or two, you'll still be alright.

In addition to the crushed barley the grain bill was:
1.0 lb 2-row pale malt
13 oz roasted barley
4 oz chocolate malt

Thanks for the informative response.

 

[JBZSTL]

I am set to brew a foreign extra stout tomorrow. The recipe again is from BYO. The recipe calls for steeping the grains in 5.8 qts and based on experience from the other night I know this is not enough h2o to completely submerse the grain bag. The additional 2.0 qts of h2o from the rinse will not allow the grain bag to be completely submersed. Should I be concerned? Does the grain bag need to be completely submersed? Thanks.

 

[JBZSTL]

For tannin extraction to happen, you need to exceed both your expected temperature and your expected pH range. Temp alone won't do it. As long as your mash didn't become too alkaline, you should be okay. You could always just taste the liquid...if taste (or, even more, feel) the astringency, you are probably good.

Of slightly greater concern is enzymatic conversion. From the sounds of it, this isn't a grain steep but a mini-mash. What got "steeped" besides the crushed barley?

Temperature control is a significant concern in mashing, much more so than in steeping. When you pour that water in, you've got to stir until your arm feels like it's about to fall off, then cover your pot and leave it alone for an hour. The hot and cold spots make it hard to know what temperature the bulk of your grain was at. If it was at 120s, you probably didn't get much conversion from the specialty grains. If it was at 180, you probably killed all the enzymes. If it was just a pound or two, you'll still be alright.

Pardon the ignorance but what is the benefit of stirring the water? Are you saying to get your kettle to the correct volume, stir the water for a while, let it set for an hour, and then turn on the heat?

 

[downinit]

Since you are actually doing a partial mash I would follow the directions from Deathbrewer's
thread on "Easy Partial Mash Brewing (with pics)" at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-partial-mash-brewing-pics-75231/

 

[Yooper]

I am set to brew a foreign extra stout tomorrow. The recipe again is from BYO. The recipe calls for steeping the grains in 5.8 qts and based on experience from the other night I know this is not enough h2o to completely submerse the grain bag. The additional 2.0 qts of h2o from the rinse will not allow the grain bag to be completely submersed. Should I be concerned? Does the grain bag need to be completely submersed? Thanks.

Use a taller pot or something so that the grain is submerged. Don't jam the grain tightly into a bag- use two or three bags if you have to so that the grains are loose in the bag, and easily saturated with the liquid during the mash.

You can use a tiny bit more water if you want- you can safely go up to 2 quarts of water per pound of grain for the mash, and 1 quart for the sparge (the rinse) per pound of grain.

 

[MalFet]

You might want to consider doing some research before you jump head-first into mashing. I don't mean to discourage you, but there is some technical knowledge that you seem to be lacking right now. Check out the deathbrewer thread mentioned below, and the John Palmer book How to Brew.

Pardon the ignorance but what is the benefit of stirring the water? Are you saying to get your kettle to the correct volume, stir the water for a while, let it set for an hour, and then turn on the heat?

Your goal is to have your grain sit at a specific temperature, usually somewhere between 150 and 158F, for an hour or so. You need the water to be hot before you add your grains. There are calculators around that will tell you exactly how hot it needs to be, but it is relatively important that you are precise about this. The reason you want to stir is to make sure that all parts of your mash are the same temperature. As you mentioned in your first post, it is easy to get hot and cold pockets. This is bad.

I am set to brew a foreign extra stout tomorrow. The recipe again is from BYO. The recipe calls for steeping the grains in 5.8 qts and based on experience from the other night I know this is not enough h2o to completely submerse the grain bag. The additional 2.0 qts of h2o from the rinse will not allow the grain bag to be completely submersed. Should I be concerned? Does the grain bag need to be completely submersed? Thanks.

Yooper mentioned some specific quantities of water that you can use. Your grain should be covered. If it's not, you're using the wrong sized pot or the wrong shaped grain sack.

 

[diS]

I am doing extract with steeping and I have few questions about it, so if anyone can help:

1. JP says that we have to steep grains in hot water, 150-170 F for 30 min. If we warm it to 170, and put grain which temp. is 60-70F, the total temperature will drop under 170F, right..?
I am wondering on what temperature we have to warm water to get 150-170 when we soak grains into it.

2. I assume that we have to keep temperature of water on range 150-170F for 30 min. Does that mean that we have to constantly heat pot on our cooker?
From your experience, can we hold this temperature range without heating pot?

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Steeping grains are just like making a very large cup of tea, you heat up water and then soak a grain bag in it for 30 minutes. Here is what I did for a steep/extract Stout I brewed last weekend. I use a calculator to figure out what temperature the water needs to be when the grains are 60F, then heat the water to that temperature drop in the grain bag and stir occasionally. I adjust the temperature by leaving the burner on very low, raising or turning it off as needed to maintain my target temperature.

Directions:
Heat 10.5 quarts of filtered water to 160F
Add grains and steep for 30 minutes between 152-157F
Remove grain bag and add hops then boil wort for 60 minutes

Ingredients:
1/8 pound Carapils
1/8 pound Crystal 10L
1/4 pound Chocolate Malt (British)
1/2 pound Roasted Barley Malt (British)
3 pounds Muntons DME - Light
1.5 ounces Kent Goldings (UK) pellet hops boiled for 60 minutes

11 grams Danstar Windsor British Ale yeast
Pitched at 70F and fermented at 68F

 

[diS]

Thanks for quick reply.
How did you calculate what temperature the water needs to be when the grains are 60F, to get desired temperature?

(aren't 10.5 quarts for 1 pound of grain little too much, I thought it should be less than gallon per pound?)

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

You've asked two very good questions. I've found that 10.5 quarts works well, it's enough water for my size boil pot to keep the grain bag completely submerged throughout the steep. Figure on grain absorption soaking up part of the water and a small amount for evaporation as well.

As for calculating the volume and temperature of the water I look at like this. When steeping I'm not trying to convert the grains as I do when mashing, only getting the color, body and flavors out of them.

I got the water temperature from a mash thickness calculator using a mash thickness of 10.5, target temperature of 155F and a grain temperature of 60F. Using the results I heated 10.5 quarts of water to 160F and then placed my bag of steeping grains in it.

It's fair to say I've brewed this same recipe 4 times now and referred back to my original brewing notes each time for accuracy. If I decide to experiment with the steeping temperature I can always raise or lower it by adding bit more hot or cold water.

 

[old_tx_kbb]

My 1st thought was that's a lot of grain for one grain bag. I would suggest NOT loading more than a pound of grain into one bag since the grain will expand and be too compacted in the bag to get the best steeping results. So I agree with Yooper....use more grain bags for steeping.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

JBZSTL's post was titled 'Steeping' and Yooper's reply was about mashing, so as not to confuse steeping with mashing, for the newbies. The grains your are steeping will definitely absorb the hot strike water and swell up, just how much depends on the type of grain.